The Law

[gingercat]

Klee Shay

What do you mean about Jesus not being able to do His father's will perfectly? Jesus was obedient in all things - even to the cross. What do think was left undone?

Excellent point, muts, Amen :angel:

 

[Sothenes]

The jury is still out for me however. I haven't decided either way, but that's why I'm questioning and studying the scriptures further. So if anyone has something else to contribute to my comments - from either side - I'll happily welcome it. I trust that God will deliver the right people to plant the right seeds, which will eventually bring fourth the fruits of God's will.

The answers come from God, His word and possibily His people. You can't guarantee people will give you the correct answers unless they both believe and understand His word unless they have had a long enough relationship with Him. I was in a Christian chatroom and some of the users there said,"This (chatroom) is my church" while lost people came to the room asking questions. The blind lead the blind and that is not where you should ultimately seek truth.

 

[gingercat]

The answers come from God, His word and possibily His people.

There many, many wearing sheep's clothing, even long time christians and church leaders. We can never discern who is who unless we are totally commited to Him. We cannot mock God!

 

[Georges]

Geroges,

I have enough problems just reading NT. Now you are giving me more work to do. You give me a headache.

Take 2 tylenol and email me in the morning....

 

[Georges]

I am saying Christians should absolutely be observing the Laws that apply to their daily lives....you would be surprised at how many Laws you obey naturally as a Christian.

How does this apply to, say, Leviticus?

That's easy....there are 613 commandments in the Mosaic Law....most of them don't apply to the average person...ie Laws designated for Temple worship such as sacrifice etc....also, most people wouldn't have a problem with Morality Laws such as ie "Sleeping with you mother in law"....most people don't have a problem with that....and most people generally obey that without realizing it is Mosaic Law. The Laws that you can do...do...as a good moral way of living righteously.

Can people keep the Law 100% of the time....that would be a big fat no....

However, all God requires for forgiveness is a repentent and contrite heart...

 

[Georges]

I noticed a lot of scripture used for doing away with the Law was given by commentators of Jesus's message, but did Jesus actually say anything which would make us believe God did away with the Law? I know I use to be adamant that everyone after Jesus must have been doing what he wanted; but I do have to question that if someone as perfect as Jesus couldn't do His Father's will perfectly while he was here - then God must have had plans for a different Messiah after Jesus, to deliver the truth once and for all.

Klee,

The Law will be taught by Messiah and perfectly realized in the coming Messianic Millennial Kingdom.....

Geo.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Luke 16:
16: "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
17: But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.

Okay, so we got verse 16 that would support what evangelicals would say, then we got verse 17 that would support something I would say. 17 is like the base statement. Its saying, 'yes the law is fulfilled, yet not dead.' Paul speaks often of the law no longer applying. Well, I posit that its because the Jews had to worship in fear. The greatest wisdom was to fear God, not to love him, as demonstrated in Georges signature. However, Luke 1:74-75 says Jesus is "to grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him all the days of our life." My point is this: if you love your wife/husband, do you need a law that tells you not to kill your spouse? No, you dont, because that would be contrary to the love you have for them. If you love God like that, you dont need the laws because you will be obeying them anyway but not out of compulsion, you'll be obeying out of love. There is the difference. Removing them from a law of slavery into a covenant of love. When you sin is truly forgiven, there is no need to fear because love conquers fear.

And the verse to validate my point on verse 17.

18: "Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

He completes it by giving an example in the very next verse thus validating 17 as still valid. For those who love God, they dont need a law. But for those who are still lacking in total love for Him, the law is still necessary.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Luke 16:
16: "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
17: But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.

Okay, so we got verse 16 that would support what evangelicals would say, then we got verse 17 that would support something I would say. 17 is like the base statement. Its saying, 'yes the law is fulfilled, yet not dead.' Paul speaks often of the law no longer applying. Well, I posit that its because the Jews had to worship in fear. The greatest wisdom was to fear God, not to love him, as demonstrated in Georges signature. However, Luke 1:74-75 says Jesus is "to grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him all the days of our life." My point is this: if you love your wife/husband, do you need a law that tells you not to kill your spouse? No, you dont, because that would be contrary to the love you have for them. If you love God like that, you dont need the laws because you will be obeying them anyway but not out of compulsion, you'll be obeying out of love. There is the difference. Removing them from a law of slavery into a covenant of love. When you sin is truly forgiven, there is no need to fear because love conquers fear.

And the verse to validate my point on verse 17.

18: "Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

He completes it by giving an example in the very next verse thus validating 17 as still valid. For those who love God, they dont need a law. But for those who are still lacking in total love for Him, the law is still necessary.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Luke 16:
16: "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.
17: But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.

Okay, so we got verse 16 that would support what evangelicals would say, then we got verse 17 that would support something I would say. 17 is like the base statement. Its saying, 'yes the law is fulfilled, yet not dead.' Paul speaks often of the law no longer applying. Well, I posit that its because the Jews had to worship in fear. The greatest wisdom was to fear God, not to love him, as demonstrated in Georges signature. However, Luke 1:74-75 says Jesus is "to grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him all the days of our life." My point is this: if you love your wife/husband, do you need a law that tells you not to kill your spouse? No, you dont, because that would be contrary to the love you have for them. If you love God like that, you dont need the laws because you will be obeying them anyway but not out of compulsion, you'll be obeying out of love. There is the difference. Removing them from a law of slavery into a covenant of love. When you sin is truly forgiven, there is no need to fear because love conquers fear.

And the verse to validate my point on verse 17.

18: "Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

He completes it by giving an example in the very next verse thus validating 17 as still valid. For those who love God, they dont need a law. But for those who are still lacking in total love for Him, the law is still necessary.

 

[Sothenes]

Klee,

The Law will be taught by Messiah and perfectly realized in the coming Messianic Millennial Kingdom.....

Geo.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbouras thyself."-Galatians 5:14

James says you can fulfil the royal law according to the scripture because Jesus fulfilled it. Its not law keeping but it is love.

1 John 4:19 (King James Version) Public Domain

19 We love him (fulfil the royal law as James 2:8 says) , because he first loved us.

Its because of the love that God showed on the cross (John 3:16) that we fulfil the law because God fulfilled it first.

 

[Sothenes]

God gave Israel Ten commandments and it was turned into 613 commandments because instead of loving God and loving man (the two tables of the commandments) they had to have 613 laws.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If it isn't love then no amount of lawkeeping is going to help anyone because I couldn't remember 613 commandments but I can remember to love which covers all of the commandments.

 

[Georges]

Klee,

The Law will be taught by Messiah and perfectly realized in the coming Messianic Millennial Kingdom.....

Geo.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbouras thyself."-Galatians 5:14

James says you can fulfil the royal law according to the scripture because Jesus fulfilled it. Its not law keeping but it is love.

1 John 4:19 (King James Version) Public Domain

19 We love him (fulfil the royal law as James 2:8 says) , because he first loved us.

Its because of the love that God showed on the cross (John 3:16) that we fulfil the law because God fulfilled it first.

Mr. S....rabbinic Judaism teaches that if you obey Torah, you will be loving your neighbor......

 

[Georges]

Okay, so we got verse 16 that would support what evangelicals would say, then we got verse 17 that would support something I would say. 17 is like the base statement. Its saying, 'yes the law is fulfilled, yet not dead.' Paul speaks often of the law no longer applying.

Yet Paul claims to be Torah observent himself in Acts 28 (near the end of his life).

Well, I posit that its because the Jews had to worship in fear.

With all due respect, that is one of the biggest misconceptions (dare I say it....lie) that is taught in Christianity, and people buy it hook line and sinker without checking that fact out.....The Jew's love Torah.....They do/didn't/don't worship in fear....The Law is not bondage to them....it only is to Paul....or pseudo Paul.

The greatest wisdom was to fear God, not to love him, as demonstrated in Georges signature.

Fear means respect.....you can love and respect God at the same time...

However, Luke 1:74-75 says Jesus is "to grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him all the days of our life." My point is this: if you love your wife/husband, do you need a law that tells you not to kill your spouse? No, you dont, because that would be contrary to the love you have for them. If you love God like that, you dont need the laws because you will be obeying them anyway but not out of compulsion, you'll be obeying out of love. There is the difference. Removing them from a law of slavery into a covenant of love. When you sin is truly forgiven, there is no need to fear because love conquers fear.

Slavery is a bad and inaccurate Christian perception of how the Law should be esteemed. Terms like Slavery, Burden and Bondage are terms used in Christianity to promote fear and control....

And the verse to validate my point on verse 17.
[quote:c14a2]18: "Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

He completes it by giving an example in the very next verse thus validating 17 as still valid. For those who love God, they dont need a law. But for those who are still lacking in total love for Him, the law is still necessary.

[/quote:c14a2]

 

[Sothenes]

Mr. S....rabbinic Judaism teaches that if you obey Torah, you will be loving your neighbor......

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Its not the fulness of love unless it comes from your heart.

 

[Georges]

Mr. S....rabbinic Judaism teaches that if you obey Torah, you will be loving your neighbor......

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Its not the fulness of love unless it comes from your heart.

Agreed....BTW, the verse you had just quoted is a prophecy concerning the future Messianic Kingdom...and it "is" with Israel....

 

[Georges]

God gave Israel Ten commandments and it was turned into 613 commandments because instead of loving God and loving man (the two tables of the commandments) they had to have 613 laws.

I believe the 10 commandments contain the 613. In other words 10 commandments are the catagories and the 613 fill those catagories. the reason for the amount of Laws is the same reason why we have so many Laws in this nation....Behavior (for humans) must be defined....if no rule is set forth, anarchy will show up...

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If it isn't love then no amount of lawkeeping is going to help anyone because I couldn't remember 613 commandments but I can remember to love which covers all of the commandments.

As told to us by Jesus himself....2 commandments...Love the Lord your God, and your neighbor as yourself...

 

[Sothenes]

Agreed....BTW, the verse you had just quoted is a prophecy concerning the future Messianic Kingdom...and it "is" with Israel....

I don't think we are agreed. The veil is still on the faces of many Jews though I love them dearly and we don't see eye to eye for the reason that I and other Orthodox Jews do not see eye to eye and though you are the Apple of God's eye and God's chosen people, I think that the Jews went through the Babylonian captivity because they don't believe and one of the reasons Israel will go through the tribulation is because they don't believe and God wants to bring a remnant back to Him. Then we will see eye to eye because then God will correct even me where I'm wrong.

Romans 11:

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[gingercat]

Agreed....BTW, the verse you had just quoted is a prophecy concerning the future Messianic Kingdom...and it "is" with Israel....

Georges,

Are you saying that we dont have to follow all of Moses laws now?

 

[Klee shay]

I need to clarify my thoughts on this...

I know I use to be adamant that everyone after Jesus must have been doing what he wanted; but I do have to question that if someone as perfect as Jesus couldn't do His Father's will perfectly while he was here - then God must have had plans for a different Messiah after Jesus, to deliver the truth once and for all.

I wasn't doubting Jesus as the Messiah at all. On the contrary; I love him and He is my Saviour. What I was doubting was whether anyone else could come after him and add to the message he was supposed to have done perfectly? If Jesus WAS the Messiah as every true believer knows, then why do we look towards men for clarity on the Word he delivered perfectly?

Another Messiah better than the first, so to speak, and this is why I'm trying to find out if Jesus said anything to suggest the Law of His Father has been done away with? If Jesus is our Messiah foretold of in the OT, why do we look away from him to the men who said Jesus needed translation on His Word?

Hence, this comment...

I noticed a lot of scripture used for doing away with the Law was given by commentators of Jesus's message, but did Jesus actually say anything which would make us believe God did away with the Law?

Jesus and the Father are one; and Jesus came so that we would be one with the Father also; as he is. How can we be one with the Father however, if we look for our relationship with God through other men, other than Jesus, who did His Father's will perfectly? Shouldn't it be the authority of God and Jesus (as one) that we look towards for our example of God's will?

Anything which does not line up with those two examples, should be questioned, shouldn't it?

 

[Klee shay]

Klee Shay

What do you mean about Jesus not being able to do His father's will perfectly? Jesus was obedient in all things - even to the cross. What do think was left undone?

I don't believe Jesus did leave anything undone. I hope I've cleared that up with my last post. Sorry for any confusion I have caused.

But if you believe Jesus didn't leave anything undone either, then why quote from other men what was "supposed" to be the Lord's message in which Jesus didn't reveal Himself?