The Law

[wavy]

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"-Colossians 2:14

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."-Hebrews 9:26

"FOR the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."-Hebrews 10:1

"Now when remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."-Hebrews 10:18 (The end of the sacrificial system for those who believe.)

None of these declare that the law is done away. Colossians 2:14 is the best thing you got here to prove that, but you are assuming the CEIROGRAFON TOIS DOGMASIN (literally, "handwriting in the decrees") = the law.

 

[wavy]

Romans 7:1-6

Do you not know, brothersâ€â€for I am speaking to men who know the lawâ€â€that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


Hebrews 8:7-13

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Concerning your Romans quote, before I respond, I want to ask you if you "know the law", as Paul says in that chapter.

Concerning Hebrews, I'd like you to tell me what you think a covenant is and whether or not the law = the covenant.

 

[wavy]

"Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill."
(Mat 5:17)

What was fulfilled and what happens to the law after Jesus comes to 'fulfill'?

Don't forget the prophets! What happens to them? :wink:

 

[wavy]

My point is this: if you love your wife/husband, do you need a law that tells you not to kill your spouse? No, you dont, because that would be contrary to the love you have for them. If you love God like that, you dont need the laws because you will be obeying them anyway but not out of compulsion, you'll be obeying out of love. There is the difference. Removing them from a law of slavery into a covenant of love. When you sin is truly forgiven, there is no need to fear because love conquers fear.

You first create a false dilemma and build a slippery slope from that false dilemma.

You tried to pass off that before fearing God was the greatest wisdom, and now, as you imply, love would take that place. So formerly obeying the laws of YHWH would be only out of fear and compulsion, but now we keep the laws through love.

The laws were always supposed to be kept through love (Exodus 20:6). And the law is not slavery (see Psalm 119:44-45). A "covenant of love" is also a foreign concept to scripture.

In fact, the law hangs off of the imperative of love (Mt 22:37-40).

For those who love God, they dont need a law. But for those who are still lacking in total love for Him, the law is still necessary.

So why then did he say,

Deuteronomy 11:1
Therefore thou shalt love YHWH thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Furthermore, why is the commandment to love in the law?

 

[mutzrein]

Concerning your Romans quote, before I respond, I want to ask you if you "know the law", as Paul says in that chapter.

Before I respond I want to ask you what your interpretation is of "know the law". Then I will tell you whether I agree.

Concerning Hebrews, I'd like you to tell me what you think a covenant is and whether or not the law = the covenant.

A covenant in these terms is a promise by God to fulfil whatever he said he would.
No.

 

[mutzrein]

Klee Shay

What do you mean about Jesus not being able to do His father's will perfectly? Jesus was obedient in all things - even to the cross. What do think was left undone?

I don't believe Jesus did leave anything undone. I hope I've cleared that up with my last post. Sorry for any confusion I have caused.

But if you believe Jesus didn't leave anything undone either, then why quote from other men what was "supposed" to be the Lord's message in which Jesus didn't reveal Himself?

Jesus fulfilled everything that was required of Him and then He returned to the Father. And what was it He told them before He returned to the father? "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

And from that point on it all changed. This could never have happened any earlier because it was the time appointed by God. And so it was from that time forward that men and women appointed by God to be born again, received the the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Klee shay]

Klee Shay

What do you mean about Jesus not being able to do His father's will perfectly? Jesus was obedient in all things - even to the cross. What do think was left undone?

I don't believe Jesus did leave anything undone. I hope I've cleared that up with my last post. Sorry for any confusion I have caused.

But if you believe Jesus didn't leave anything undone either, then why quote from other men what was "supposed" to be the Lord's message in which Jesus didn't reveal Himself?

Jesus fulfilled everything that was required of Him and then He returned to the Father. And what was it He told them before He returned to the father? "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

And from that point on it all changed. This could never have happened any earlier because it was the time appointed by God. And so it was from that time forward that men and women appointed by God to be born again, received the the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I actually agree that Jesus fulfilled everything that was required of Him; and after His death and resurrection to the right-hand side of His Father, things DID change.

But I'm not questioning the gift of the Holy Spirit or that everything has happened according to God's timing...for Jesus did tell us the Comforter must come to reveal all truths. What I want to discover however, is what actually did happen according to God's will; and this is why I'm returning to the words of Jesus. For he is the only man to have walked the earth, to teach with God's authority perfectly.

And so I will show you the scriptures which cause me to ponder...

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." MATTHEW 7:21

Enter my next question, so WHAT IS God's will then?

And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Amen. MATTHEW 28:18-20

So then I go back and study what Jesus commanded His disciples, and I find one of many...

And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." MATTHEW 24:4-5

In other words isn't Jesus telling EVERYONE not to take the word of men on the matters of Christ? Trust only Jesus to reveal the true Christ.

So what else did Jesus reveal...

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." MATTHEW 24:35

In other words what Jesus spoke while he walked the earth is what will remain - the words of men who were following Jesus however, their words WOULD pass away. Just like my words will pass away. If I recite what Jesus said then HIS words spoken by me will not pass away - but if I was to add to what Jesus said, those "translated" words would pass away.

So what else did Jesus proclaim to his disciples...

But he answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." MATTHEW 15:24

This tells me that Jesus was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Therefore are the sheep Jesus speaks about of which He is the Shepherd; only of the house of Israel? That is to say as Gentiles we can be adopted into the house of Israel so long as we desire the things of God and not the things of the Gentiles.

And this is what Jesus instructed his disciples...

"...Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand." MATTHEW 10:5-7

When I say this, bear in mind that I still have much reading to do in the bible, hence anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt. Test anything I say against what Jesus spoke with the authority given him by God - please do not take MY word for it.

This is why I welcome scripture anyone can find which was spoken by Jesus which may help guide me into His light. I really desire to seek the truth. My faith is in Jesus and I believe I have received the Holy Spirit by that belief...my questioning is not about returning to obedience of the Law for obedience sake - or for the Law's sake! I only seek to find God's will in what His Son revealed.

And Jesus promised this was possible too...

"...for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known." MATTHEW 10:26

 

[mutzrein]

Klee shay

It seems like you are suggesting that the Holy Spirit was not or is not leading those who are born of God into all truth. The same Spirit that Jesus was born of is the Spirit of truth. This is the same Spirit that I am born of I don't find any inconsistency between what is spoken of by Paul for example, and Jesus. The problem is the premise. If you start with a particular premise you are going to want to look for things that fit your premise. And then you will find things that don't fit and you will start to question the validity of some of it.

That doc I sent you may give you a bit of food for thought and help in understanding my premise.

 

[Georges]

[quote="Klee shay":7f3c6]

Klee Shay

What do you mean about Jesus not being able to do His father's will perfectly? Jesus was obedient in all things - even to the cross. What do think was left undone?

I don't believe Jesus did leave anything undone. I hope I've cleared that up with my last post. Sorry for any confusion I have caused.

But if you believe Jesus didn't leave anything undone either, then why quote from other men what was "supposed" to be the Lord's message in which Jesus didn't reveal Himself?

Jesus fulfilled everything that was required of Him and then He returned to the Father. And what was it He told them before He returned to the father? "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

And from that point on it all changed. This could never have happened any earlier because it was the time appointed by God. And so it was from that time forward that men and women appointed by God to be born again, received the the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I actually agree that Jesus fulfilled everything that was required of Him; and after His death and resurrection to the right-hand side of His Father, things DID change.

But I'm not questioning the gift of the Holy Spirit or that everything has happened according to God's timing...for Jesus did tell us the Comforter must come to reveal all truths. What I want to discover however, is what actually did happen according to God's will; and this is why I'm returning to the words of Jesus. For he is the only man to have walked the earth, to teach with God's authority perfectly.

And so I will show you the scriptures which cause me to ponder...

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." MATTHEW 7:21

Enter my next question, so WHAT IS God's will then?

And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Amen. MATTHEW 28:18-20

So then I go back and study what Jesus commanded His disciples, and I find one of many...

And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." MATTHEW 24:4-5

In other words isn't Jesus telling EVERYONE not to take the word of men on the matters of Christ? Trust only Jesus to reveal the true Christ.

So what else did Jesus reveal...

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." MATTHEW 24:35

In other words what Jesus spoke while he walked the earth is what will remain - the words of men who were following Jesus however, their words WOULD pass away. Just like my words will pass away. If I recite what Jesus said then HIS words spoken by me will not pass away - but if I was to add to what Jesus said, those "translated" words would pass away.

So what else did Jesus proclaim to his disciples...

But he answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." MATTHEW 15:24

This tells me that Jesus was sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Therefore are the sheep Jesus speaks about of which He is the Shepherd; only of the house of Israel? That is to say as Gentiles we can be adopted into the house of Israel so long as we desire the things of God and not the things of the Gentiles.

And this is what Jesus instructed his disciples...

"...Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand." MATTHEW 10:5-7

When I say this, bear in mind that I still have much reading to do in the bible, hence anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt. Test anything I say against what Jesus spoke with the authority given him by God - please do not take MY word for it.

This is why I welcome scripture anyone can find which was spoken by Jesus which may help guide me into His light. I really desire to seek the truth. My faith is in Jesus and I believe I have received the Holy Spirit by that belief...my questioning is not about returning to obedience of the Law for obedience sake - or for the Law's sake! I only seek to find God's will in what His Son revealed.

And Jesus promised this was possible too...

"...for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known." MATTHEW 10:26[/quote:7f3c6]


Pretty sharp observations Klee.....

 

[gingercat]

Georges, would you answer to my question please?

 

[wavy]

Before I respond I want to ask you what your interpretation is of "know the law". Then I will tell you whether I agree.

A covenant in these terms is a promise by God to fulfil whatever he said he would.
No.

When I say do you "know the law", I am asking if you are familiar with its contents.

I am assuming you quoted Hebrews as prooftext that the law is done away with as per request of the OP.

But Hebrews quotes Jeremiah where the law is put on the hearts of YHWH's people (Israel). Therefore it can't be done away.

 

[Klee shay]

Klee shay

It seems like you are suggesting that the Holy Spirit was not or is not leading those who are born of God into all truth. The same Spirit that Jesus was born of is the Spirit of truth. This is the same Spirit that I am born of I don't find any inconsistency between what is spoken of by Paul for example, and Jesus. The problem is the premise. If you start with a particular premise you are going to want to look for things that fit your premise. And then you will find things that don't fit and you will start to question the validity of some of it.

That doc I sent you may give you a bit of food for thought and help in understanding my premise.

What I am suggesting mutzrein comes from the mouth of Jesus. I am reading his words for the first time without any motive but to discover the will of God.

I was raised with a concept of Christianity I simply took for granted as truth, but I never read the bible from Jesus' perspective alone. I've never read it from the authority of Jesus before - merely the authority of men who told me how to translate the words of Jesus.

As for questioning whether men in the past were filled with the Holy Spirit or not; I am not qualified to judge. In fact, I've prayed to God about this a great deal and truly he has shown me that if it weren't for Paul's ministry to the Gentiles - where would I be standing today? Certainly not in the company of my Lord, because he was a Jewish God for Jewish people alone.

Now He has been spoken abroad and thanks to the success of Christianity, non-Jews have been exposed to the grace of God all over the world. Although not done perfectly along the way, truly this was a good thing to happen in the end, was it not?

As my faith in God grows however, I AM drawn nearer to His will alone - not the commentary of those subject to His will also. For Jesus said in Matthew 10: 32-33... "Whosoever therefore shall confess ME before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny ME before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

If we have faith in Jesus as the Son of God shouldn't we be proclaiming HIS perfected (fulfilled for all righteousness) works, before other men; rather than turning it around the other way and looking at the works the Holy Spirit has wrought through other men to declare Jesus?

MATTHEW 21:43..."Therefore say I unto you (priests & elders), The kingdom of god shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

I am still praying and searching for the truth, but I suspect the kingdom of God will be neither Jew nor Gentile; but rather those who ONLY seek the will of God.

Which brings me back to the scriptures to find the will of God; and thusfar I have discovered pretty much everything points towards this...

"All things are delievered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and He to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." MATTHEW 11:24

Jesus and the words he spoke alone, are the only means to reveal the will of God. The Holy Spirit by faith certainly does wrought works in mankind which are inspired of God. But how can the Holy Spirit declare God Himself when Jesus was given "All things" in which to draw mankind closer to God's will?

So I'm back in the scriptures searching for the claim Jesus made that everything before Him, revealed by God, would be taken away. So far I can only find that it would be given to another nation.

I'm still searching and praying though - so please don't lose hope because I question.

 

[wavy]

God gave Israel Ten commandments and it was turned into 613 commandments because instead of loving God and loving man (the two tables of the commandments) they had to have 613 laws.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If it isn't love then no amount of lawkeeping is going to help anyone because I couldn't remember 613 commandments but I can remember to love which covers all of the commandments.

No cigar, no cigar...

Firstly, 613 commandments is a rabbinical division. Secondly, what do you mean they needed to have 613 laws "instead of loving God and man"? Please read Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Lastly, the law is not that difficult to remember. Certain laws apply to certain groups of people. Some are for males, some for females, some for priests, some are circumstantial (like when you had leprosy), some apply to judges, some apply only if you live in the land of Israel. Once you know what applies to you as an individual, it is quite easy to understand. You do have to learn though, as the scripture says,

Psalm 1:1
Blessed is the man who walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psalm 1:2
But his delight is in the law of YHWH, and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

 

[Georges]

Agreed....BTW, the verse you had just quoted is a prophecy concerning the future Messianic Kingdom...and it "is" with Israel....

Georges,

Are you saying that we dont have to follow all of Moses laws now?

Gingercat,

I'm saying that we should "in respect to God" try and obey the Mosaic Law that .....

1. Pertains to God Fearers.....God Fearers are those (like Cornelius) who are Gentile believers in God. These are men/women who desired to please God enough to worship him without commiting fully to Judaism.
2. Pertians to Proyselytes.....Proyselytes are those Gentile God Fearers who take it to the next level and convert fully to Judaism by being circumcised and baptised....they also observe Mosaic Law as a Jew by adoption.

there are commandments that only pertain to God Fearers....who are a separate Group from Jews....

As I've said in other posts....Gentile God Fearers....(ie those Gentiles not wishing to convert completely to Judasim) are only required to observe the Laws as given by James in Acts 15/21. However, since James and the other Apostles still observed Torah, they expected that the 4 laws given to the Gentiles to observe would evolve into full Torah observation.

This is a milk to meat situation...the Laws given by James in Acts 15 were the milk that would lead to the full observation of the meat (Torah).


Did I answer your question? I'm not an authority, but I think it makes sense.

 

[gingercat]

Ok georges, that makes sense. thanks. :D

 

[gingercat]

Georges,

We know that we don't have to sacrifice animals any more; is animal sacrifice the only one that we should ingnore?

 

[Georges]

Ginger.....you can easily do a search on the Mosaic Law...there are websites that list them (along with the OT verse supporting the Law).

You will see that many do not apply to you and I....

As far as sacrificing....You can bet your bottom dollar that there will be a Temple built in Jerusalem....once that is done, animal sacrifices will begin again...

Having said that, I believe that animal sacrifices can only be done at the Temple....if you live outside Israel, I do not believe you are required (Believers) to sacrifice....

One of the silliest statements others make in regard to Torah.....

Something like, "Well George, if you love Torah so much, why don't you go sacrifice a goat, duh huh......." crack me up because they don't know enough to keep from asking that...

gotta go .....see ya.

 

[gingercat]

As far as sacrificing....You can bet your bottom dollar that there will be a Temple built in Jerusalem....once that is done, animal sacrifices will begin again...

This is a big surprise, I thought Jesus was the atoning sacrifice and His followers don't have to do it any more.

 

[I Reckon Sow]

Hello everyone
My first post! GingerCat, i believe your right. Thats how Jesus fulfilled that part of the law. The sacrifices were but a shadow of Christ.

 

[Georges]

As far as sacrificing....You can bet your bottom dollar that there will be a Temple built in Jerusalem....once that is done, animal sacrifices will begin again...

This is a big surprise, I thought Jesus was the atoning sacrifice and His followers don't have to do it any more.

Gingercat,

Even Paul sacrificed.....that's what Acts 21 is all about....what is difficult to stomach is how this scene is penned in such a way as to disguise a very Jewish religious act in a cloak of ambiguity. In Acts 21, James the leader of the Christian Church commands Paul to do these things to prove that he is still abiding by the Law of Moses....

Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Notice verse 24, the terms "be at charges" and "Keepest the Law". This is concerning the "Nazarite Vow" Paul had undertaken (Act 18:18, Num 6:12). Not only did James require to fulfill the Nazarite vow to prove that he was following the Law of Moses, but he required Paul to pay the expenses for the sacrifices of the other 4 men (verse 26) to put the ultimate seal of approval on the Law.

I should make this a topic of another thread as it is comical to see how apologists dance around this subject to avoid the obvious....The Nazarene Christians (including Paul) still followed the Law after the crucifixion.