Are you going to follow a man's teachings or that which has already been written. Please show me even one scripture that teaches about a pretrib Rapture of the Church and we can discuss it with an open mind.
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The "Left Behind" narrative seems unbiblical
- Thread starter tdidymas
- Start date
Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland in the 1800’s had a vision of a pretrib rapture, but she felt that the vision felt dark and evil as an untruth. When telling others of her vision many preachers ran with it as being true and started teaching their theories on pretrib rapture. There theories were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something.
I want to show you there is no scripture that supports a seven year tribulation. The Bible never talks about a seven year great tribulation, but 3½ only as we will always have tribulations and persecutions until the day of judgment when Jesus returns in the air to gather those who have endured all the tribulations and persecutions for the witness of Christ and places them in safety until he makes an end to all the abominations of the world and Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet.
God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation period (not a seven year) as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5
The abomination of desolation was 1260 years (a year is as a day with the Lord) of Papal Rome rule from 538AD with Emperor Justinian’s decree and under the military protection of Belisarius and the beast (Pope) until the deadly wound came in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the papal government and established a secular one. This is also confirmed in Revelation 12:6 the church of Jesus would hide in the wilderness for exactly 1260 days (years) or 3 ½ years. This was the time when Rome persecuted the Christians and killed them which were approximately 500 million saints slain for the cause of their faith in Jesus. 1798 – 538 = 1260 days/years. Napoleon had closed down the Catholic Church and the Papacy and its power was thought to be forever broken. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to the Pope and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty. Today the Vatican has formal diplomatic relations with almost every country in the world, Revelation 13:3, 12; Matthew 24:15; Revelation 12:6.
Jesus said those who will endure in the faith of Christ unto the end the same shall be saved. This means the end of Papal rule in 1798 which now allowed the Gospel to be preached through out the world as we have been set free from Papal authority even though Papal Rome will try to take its seat again to rule the nations from Jerusalem, which is also an abomination of desolation to God as Satan said “I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (other ruling powers) I will sit also upon the Mount of the Congregation in the sides of the north (Jerusalem). I will ascend above the clouds; I will be like the Most High”. The so called seven year tribulation, which I have explained is only 3½ years in history that has already passed and is not a certain future event. There is much tribulation yet to come through Papal Rome as the world will face their tyranny once again and then the end shall come when God will judge the world as he separates the wheat from the tares, or the goats from the sheep and make end to all sin, Matthew 24:13, 14; Rev 14:14-20.
There is no mention in scripture about a secret quiet rapture or a second chance after the saints of God are caught up to meet Jesus in the air as Jesus will descend with a shout and with the trump of God. This does not sound like it’s going to be a quiet so called rapture does it and every eye will see him and every knee will bow saints and those who choose to reject Jesus. The Holy Spirit dwells in us the believers and isn’t something that just floats around in the air so for this reason when we are taken up so is the Holy Spirit giving no one a second chance because we are sealed by Gods Spirit for Salvation and after the Spirit is taken up no one has a second chance, 1Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 1:7; John 14:17; 2Corinthians 1:21, 22 .
I want to show you there is no scripture that supports a seven year tribulation. The Bible never talks about a seven year great tribulation, but 3½ only as we will always have tribulations and persecutions until the day of judgment when Jesus returns in the air to gather those who have endured all the tribulations and persecutions for the witness of Christ and places them in safety until he makes an end to all the abominations of the world and Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet.
God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation period (not a seven year) as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5
The abomination of desolation was 1260 years (a year is as a day with the Lord) of Papal Rome rule from 538AD with Emperor Justinian’s decree and under the military protection of Belisarius and the beast (Pope) until the deadly wound came in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the papal government and established a secular one. This is also confirmed in Revelation 12:6 the church of Jesus would hide in the wilderness for exactly 1260 days (years) or 3 ½ years. This was the time when Rome persecuted the Christians and killed them which were approximately 500 million saints slain for the cause of their faith in Jesus. 1798 – 538 = 1260 days/years. Napoleon had closed down the Catholic Church and the Papacy and its power was thought to be forever broken. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to the Pope and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty. Today the Vatican has formal diplomatic relations with almost every country in the world, Revelation 13:3, 12; Matthew 24:15; Revelation 12:6.
Jesus said those who will endure in the faith of Christ unto the end the same shall be saved. This means the end of Papal rule in 1798 which now allowed the Gospel to be preached through out the world as we have been set free from Papal authority even though Papal Rome will try to take its seat again to rule the nations from Jerusalem, which is also an abomination of desolation to God as Satan said “I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (other ruling powers) I will sit also upon the Mount of the Congregation in the sides of the north (Jerusalem). I will ascend above the clouds; I will be like the Most High”. The so called seven year tribulation, which I have explained is only 3½ years in history that has already passed and is not a certain future event. There is much tribulation yet to come through Papal Rome as the world will face their tyranny once again and then the end shall come when God will judge the world as he separates the wheat from the tares, or the goats from the sheep and make end to all sin, Matthew 24:13, 14; Rev 14:14-20.
There is no mention in scripture about a secret quiet rapture or a second chance after the saints of God are caught up to meet Jesus in the air as Jesus will descend with a shout and with the trump of God. This does not sound like it’s going to be a quiet so called rapture does it and every eye will see him and every knee will bow saints and those who choose to reject Jesus. The Holy Spirit dwells in us the believers and isn’t something that just floats around in the air so for this reason when we are taken up so is the Holy Spirit giving no one a second chance because we are sealed by Gods Spirit for Salvation and after the Spirit is taken up no one has a second chance, 1Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 1:7; John 14:17; 2Corinthians 1:21, 22 .
This is a good link and it lines up with my thoughts on the subject , food for thought
.Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Consecrated Life
Member
The major "reason" will be for Jesus to fulfil His long prophesized qualified place as " King Of The Jews "
Mat 27:11
Art thou the King of the Jews?
And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
This Prophesy specific regarding to Israel will be fulfilled when Jesus sits down upon His earthly throne as King over the entire world from Zion's holy hill of Jerusalem , in the 3rd Temple.
This is prophesized in the depiction of His presence in the Temple where the absence of Ark of the Covenant will no longer be of any thought or concern ever again:
Jer 3:16
And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
Jer 3:17
At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
The secondary reasons are related to us returning Christians .
I'll come back to this later, have to go now, but in the meantime Ask yourself this and tell me what you think , if Jesus does a through cleansing of evil throughout the earth upon His return and it is only the saved that are on earth at that point,
WHERE DOES ALL THIS NEW EVIL RISE UP FROM in the 1000 years ?
Psa 110:5-6
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Consecrated Life
Member
1Thess 4:17 does not mention the word Rapture as this does not happen until after the seventh trumpet is sounded. The full context is 1Thess 4:13-18 which clearly shows what happens with the coming of Christ. He only comes back once on the last day, John 5:28-29; Rev 19:11-21.
Same with picking just a part of one verse without the whole verse as it reads 1Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.He spoke this after telling the disciples what must come first before He returns for His own.
Nothing in those verses say anything about a pretrib Rapture of the body of Christ.
I use to believe in all those pretrib teachings and was so excited that we were not going to be here before the sounding of the seven trumpets, but after reading all the scriptures they give, there is nothing at all about any pretrib Rapture within them that I can find. Oh, how I wish there was, but have to go by that which is written and not what man reads into scripture. Pretrib wasn't even taught before 1830.
Notice in the Bible in Revelation , Churches , look at the big chasm between mentions of the CHURCH in the book of Revelation .
I wonder why there is an absence of the CHURCH
? Did the church go somewhere ?
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Consecrated Life
Member
Not only does the word rapture not appear in 1Thess 4:17, it is found nowhere in the bible.
But whatever word you would like to use describing Jesus calling "we" , "we" as in the present tense you and me, up to meet Him in the air is okay by me.
Those that come to know Christ during the tribulation will not see Him for the first time "in the air " they will see Him for the first time as descends and He plants His feet on the Mount of Olives.
Act 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Why would they not be caught up to Christ when He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to catch all of us up to meet Him in the air before He plants His feet on the Mt of Olives.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
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The seven Churches in Asia that Jesus sent an angle to brought both to them those things that pleased God, but also the areas they were weak in and needed to be corrected. That is the same today as God does not recognize all these different denominations or non-denominations, but only sees those who make up the true body of Christ.Notice in the Bible in Revelation , Churches , look at the big chasm between mentions of the CHURCH in the book of Revelation .
I wonder why there is an absence of the CHURCH
Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Yes, the carnal church has left it's true love and has gone after all those false prophets that like to tickle their ears with a feel good message that love to line their pockets with the hard earned money of others. There are few churches that teach truth given them by the Holy Spirit, but are far and in between. Church as become a place of a socially acceptable word of man assembling that adds to and takes away from the word of God. Don't want any part of that.
Consecrated Life
Member
Because one point that God is unmistakable about in His future Prophecies is the reconciliation unto Himself of His chosen people .
They will be delt with in the future the exact way they were delt with in History , SEPARATLY !
They are given no special consideration in being brought to their senses.
That is what the tribulation is all about .
People that He chose to be the ones by whom your salvation and my salvation came to earth and was made possible, and yet the very people He chose to bring the world's Savior into being , not only did not receive Him, they executed Him.
Do you really think that is where it ended with the nation Israel as far as God is concerned, do you ?
Zec 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
When we read Romans 11 and Galatians 3:15-29 we see in Christ there is no more Jew or Gentile, but that everyone that is God's own have come to Him by faith.
Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshiping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1 Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.
The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The Temple Mount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original Temple Mount.
God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.
The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.
The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Consecrated Life
Member
Why then are the Jews, not gentiles , living in Jerusalem singled out to one day be confronted in this way by Jesus Himself when He returns ?
Zec 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 12:1-9 is about the physical salvation of Judah and from 12:10-14 is the Spiritual salvation of Judah as I think it might be referencing the latter day 144,000 found in Rev 7.
Rev 7 - 144,000
John is given another vision after these things, meaning after the first six seals that are revealed to him. He now sees four angels standing on the four corners of the earth holding the four winds of the earth in order that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree until Gods servants were sealed.
These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.
When studying the history of the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob/Israel we find from 1047 B.C. and 931 B.C. the twelve tribes were under the leadership of three Kings, Saul, David and Solomon. Near the end of Solomon's reign he fell into idolatry and God spoke of tearing apart the Kingdom as judgment for these sins, 1 Kings 11:10-12.
After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin (Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God. For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as he turned the northern Kingdom into idol worshipers.
This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshiping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.
(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4.
Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)
"Let no one deceive you..." so says Paul in 2 Thes. 2. Jones claims the 2nd Advent is 7 years after the rapture. But let's examine what Paul says carefully:This is a good link and it lines up with my thoughts on the subject , food for thought
Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
v. 1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him
The coming of our Lord = 2nd Advent; our gathering together unto him = rapture (i.e. 1st resurrection)
This is the same event, not 2 events 7 years apart. In v. 2 he calls it "the day of Christ" (i.e. the 2nd Advent), and in v. 3 he calls it "that day" (i.e. a single event). To make this 2 separate events is to impose on the scripture something that doesn't belong. Or, to try to make it a single event that takes place over 7 years is also an imposition on the scripture. This is a fundamental problem with the pre-trib theory.
God wants to "bring many sons to glory." Another 1000 years would literally fill the world with people, possibly a million times more people than exist today, given the current population growth rate. It would take Jesus ruling "with a rod of iron" and His glorified saints ruling with Him to manage such a world. Since the question requires speculation, I think this should be an adequate answer.
But the issue of a literal millennium is the issue of how many resurrections there will be. If only one, then we should not expect a millennial reign. But if there are two (the first of the present saints and the 2nd of the rest of mankind), then there could well be a literal millennial reign with the last resurrection at the end of it. Amillennialists claim there is only one resurrection, while Millenialists claim there are 2 at least. Pre-tribbers claim there are several, I've heard up to 7. However, they don't claim any distinction between general resurrections (of a multitude), and special resurrections (Jesus, the 2 witnesses, some OT saints, et. al.) The resurrections described in 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4 and 2 Thes. 2 is a general resurrection of the saints.
I don't agree with your assessment. I quoted Jeremiah above, and there is no indication nor implication he is talking about the antichrist as a child. If you think LaHaye is, then you should quote him and the context and show by clear reasoning why he means that. The text of 2 Thes. 2 clearly states "the man of lawlessness is revealed" - in which the context is clear, that he will be an adult in power.
You're referencing 2 Pet 3:8 in which he is applying Ps. 90:4, which is clearly about God's infinite patience. To make "a thousand years" equal to a different period of time doesn't fit the context of either passage, and is therefore a bad interpretation.
Consecrated Life
Member
It is about reality coming home to Jerusalem in the person of Jesus Christ , & to appear to those ( The House Of David), who rejected and killed Him, "WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED"
Zec 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
The question is who will this knowledge of the "man of lawlessness" be revealed to ?
One person ? A Group of people ? The whole world ?