The "Left Behind" narrative seems unbiblical

[tdidymas]

The "left behind" narrative appears to conflict with scripture. It places the "rapture" before the antichrist is revealed, but 2 Thes. 2:3 clearly places the "rapture" (1st resurrection) AFTER the antichrist is revealed.

This issue came up when I read a statement by (the very respected and knowledgeable) David Jeremiah: "No, the Bible does not tell us who the Antichrist will be. In fact, Paul tells us in the second chapter of [2] Thessalonians that this coming world ruler will not be revealed until after the Rapture of the church. 'So if you ever reach the point where you think you know who he is, that must mean you have been left behind.'" (quoting Tim LaHaye, and agreeing). Quoted from "The Book of Signs," p. 248.

But that scripture clearly states the opposite (2 Thes. 2:3) "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed..."
"That day" is referring to v. 1 "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him" (i.e., the "rapture", or the 1 Cor. 15 resurrection.
"the man of lawlessness" is obviously referring to The Antichrist (which is the beast of Rev. 13).

Before vs. after - can anyone explain this conflict?

I'm a skeptic when it comes to constructed chronologies of eshcatology. I would like to believe in the Pre-trib idea, but I'm having a rough time with it. I haven't found anything anywhere that adequately explains this conflict. All I've seen so far is assertions and opinions. Can anyone help?

 

[hawkman]

But that scripture clearly states the opposite (2 Thes. 2:3) "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed..."
"That day" is referring to v. 1 "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him" (i.e., the "rapture", or the 1 Cor. 15 resurrection.
"the man of lawlessness" is obviously referring to The Antichrist (which is the beast of Rev. 13).

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Would you agree the "rebellion" , falling away , has been taking place and is taking place even now ?

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

"the man of lawlessness" is obviously referring to The Antichrist (which is the beast of Rev. 13).

What if "the man of lawlessness" instead refers to the False Prophet; a man who holds himself above all law?

 

[for_his_glory]

I use to believe in a pretrib rapture until the Holy Spirit revealed the truth about when we are caught up to Christ, Matthew 24:29-31, 36-39; John 5:28-29; 1Corinthians 15:50-58 and Rev 19:11-21 just to name a few places found in scripture.

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.

Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.
Reference:
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16
Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000) - Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.



The word Rapture is found nowhere in any scripture or in any concordances or Bible dictionaries. Some people have taken the transliterate word of the Greek, Harpazo, to mean Rapture, but the definition of this word is:
1. To seize, carry off by force, obtain by robbery
2. To seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. To snatch out or away

The Latin word rapio is where the word Rapture came from as it means to be seized or snatched up. No where in scripture does it say we will be seized or snatched up as we are obtained by robbery. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air after receiving our new glorified bodies that will be like Jesus and will evermore be with Him on the last day, John 6:40. It's no secret quiet rapture as many teach as the voice and the sound of a trumpet during the last day will be very loud and every eye will see Jesus return so it doesn't sound like we are seized or snatched up from the earth as God sends His angels out to gather the saints of God from the four corners of the earth, Rev 1:7; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[tdidymas]

What if "the man of lawlessness" instead refers to the False Prophet; a man who holds himself above all law?

"The beast" (antichrist) and "another beast" (false prophet) appear about the same time, not 7 yrs later.

 

[tdidymas]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Would you agree the "rebellion" , falling away , has been taking place and is taking place even now ?

There was a great falling away during the middle ages, ending with the Age of Enlightenment and the Reformation. Another big falling away came in the 4th century when most of the churches were persuaded of the Arian heresy, and one of the faithful few was called "Athanasius against the world". Apostasy and revivals happen periodically. It is possible that the present falling away into lawlessness is the beginning throes of the end time. But keep in mind that many of the generations since the 1st century thought they were the last generation.

 

[tdidymas]

I use to believe in a pretrib rapture until the Holy Spirit revealed the truth about when we are caught up to Christ, Matthew 24:29-31, 36-39; John 5:28-29; 1Corinthians 15:50-58 and Rev 19:11-21 just to name a few places found in scripture.

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.

Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.
Reference:
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16
Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000) - Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.



The word Rapture is found nowhere in any scripture or in any concordances or Bible dictionaries. Some people have taken the transliterate word of the Greek, Harpazo, to mean Rapture, but the definition of this word is:
1. To seize, carry off by force, obtain by robbery
2. To seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. To snatch out or away

The Latin word rapio is where the word Rapture came from as it means to be seized or snatched up. No where in scripture does it say we will be seized or snatched up as we are obtained by robbery. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air after receiving our new glorified bodies that will be like Jesus and will evermore be with Him on the last day, John 6:40. It's no secret quiet rapture as many teach as the voice and the sound of a trumpet during the last day will be very loud and every eye will see Jesus return so it doesn't sound like we are seized or snatched up from the earth as God sends His angels out to gather the saints of God from the four corners of the earth, Rev 1:7; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Matthew 24:29-31.

Tks for the info, even though most of it I already know. Notice I did put "rapture" in quotes. I take it scripturally to be the first resurrection (of the saints). I don't mind calling it "rapture" since most of the people in my church call it that. I realize the term comes with some issues. I think most of the leadership at my church subscribe to the pre-trib theory, since it comes out of Dallas Theological Seminary (I live in Texas). I would still like to go through your presentation to see if I can glean anything here. However, an example of my taking things with a grain of salt is your citing of 2 Pet. 3:8 in the context of a symbolic numbering of 1000 - I don't see the 1000 in this verse as symbolic. Peter is making a point that God's patience is infinite, so "1000 years is as one day" simply means God's patience is timeless, and He doesn't squash someone just because of their procrastination. So it's a comparison, not a symbol. But I do appreciate your study, and intend to do more homework with it.

 

[1pet2_9]

I do think Left Behind is unscriptural, but it's in this gray area where we're dealing in various end times prophecies. Opinions and interpretations are all over the map.

 

[tdidymas]

I do think Left Behind is unscriptural, but it's in this gray area where we're dealing in various end times prophecies. Opinions and interpretations are all over the map.

You are correct that opinions and interpretations are all over the map, and I add that most if not all of the chronological constructs have problems with scripture. It certainly doesn't justify holding to the Left Behind narrative which requires the resurrection of the saints to come before the revealing of the Antichrist, which conflicts with 2 Thes. 2:3. Would you agree? Then it would be unscriptural.

 

[for_his_glory]

Tks for the info, even though most of it I already know. Notice I did put "rapture" in quotes. I take it scripturally to be the first resurrection (of the saints). I don't mind calling it "rapture" since most of the people in my church call it that. I realize the term comes with some issues. I think most of the leadership at my church subscribe to the pre-trib theory, since it comes out of Dallas Theological Seminary (I live in Texas). I would still like to go through your presentation to see if I can glean anything here. However, an example of my taking things with a grain of salt is your citing of 2 Pet. 3:8 in the context of a symbolic numbering of 1000 - I don't see the 1000 in this verse as symbolic. Peter is making a point that God's patience is infinite, so "1000 years is as one day" simply means God's patience is timeless, and He doesn't squash someone just because of their procrastination. So it's a comparison, not a symbol. But I do appreciate your study, and intend to do more homework with it.

In how I study scripture I understand that a 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[for_his_glory]

I do think Left Behind is unscriptural, but it's in this gray area where we're dealing in various end times prophecies. Opinions and interpretations are all over the map.

No gray areas if one is reading the scriptures for what has already been written instead of believing all these pocket lining bandwagon preachers then they would see truth given only by the Holy Spirit. Many truly do not Spiritually discern what spirit is teaching them and this will, has and is causing a great falling away from truth as many are being deceived in believing the lies of Satan. Those who are still alive at the time the son of perdition takes its seat in Jerusalem will think that there is no God as they were taught they would be out of here before the seven trumpets start blowing.

I use to believe in a pretrib Rapture as I was allowing man to teach me, but could never find any scripture to back up those teachings. Here is my questions to all who teach a pretrib that none of them can answer.

If we are out of here before the seven trumpets of God's great wrath then what is the purpose of the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgements?

What would be the purpose of the son of perdition taking his literal seat in Jerusalem as who is he going to deceive if we are all taken out of here?

How I wish the pretrib was true, but it comes against scripture.


By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chater 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[Anaphora]

Rapture theory is false doctrine. Some false shepherds twist 1 thessalonians chapter 4 to fit their agenda.

False brethren are servants of satan. They don't have holy spirit. Evil spirits influence them.

Ezekiel chapter 13 . God hates the fly away doctrine. Which is rapture theory. Its demonic and from satan.

Ephesians chapter 6 . Gospel armour is knowledge and wisdom of God's word. Those who are biblically illiterate will worship antichrist near future.

Many shepherds are leading their flocks right into satan's camp. They will worship antichrist near future.

2 Timothy chapter 4:3. Tells us time will come, when they will not endure sound doctrine, but chase after false teachers. Turn their backs on the truth.

There are very few men of God and women, who consistently warn people about this. We won't sugar coat Gods word.
I moved on to other subjects.
Take care.

 

[1pet2_9]

You are correct that opinions and interpretations are all over the map, and I add that most if not all of the chronological constructs have problems with scripture. It certainly doesn't justify holding to the Left Behind narrative which requires the resurrection of the saints to come before the revealing of the Antichrist, which conflicts with 2 Thes. 2:3. Would you agree? Then it would be unscriptural.

The problem is, *ALL* of the camps have problems with Scripture. That's exactly the problem I have with the Millennium. Not a single millennial view does not have a serious Scriptural problem with it. Even the amillennial view: okay, so there is no Millennium. Then why did Revelation just say there is one?

 

[tdidymas]

The problem is, *ALL* of the camps have problems with Scripture. That's exactly the problem I have with the Millennium. Not a single millennial view does not have a serious Scriptural problem with it. Even the amillennial view: okay, so there is no Millennium. Then why did Revelation just say there is one?

I take it there will be a millennium reign, simply because Rev. 20 reads like a literal prophecy. I don't have a problem with that, I have a problem with the chronological constructs, especially the pre-trib theory.

 

[tdidymas]

In how I study scripture I understand that a 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

Ps. 90:4 is used by Peter in 2 Pet. 3:8, and I've already shown it's about God's patience, so it's not symbolic. All the other verses you cite show in the context that 1000 is used exaggeratively to make a point. But the context of Rev. 20 is not exaggerative, and the 1000 years is not being used to make a point, but implies a literal 1000 years. There is a definite beginning and ending of it, with events described. It reads like a literal prophecy. So in this, I don't agree with your interpretation.

 

[1pet2_9]

There is a definite beginning and end to it, but that does not rule out that the 1000 years might be symbolic. Could be 999 years. Or 2024 years.

 

[tdidymas]

There is a definite beginning and end to it, but that does not rule out that the 1000 years might be symbolic. Could be 999 years. Or 2024 years.

That sounds like approximations, except 1000 symbolizing 2000 is not credible. I suppose 1000 could symbolize eternity, since it also says elsewhere the saints will reign with Christ forever and ever. But then could forever mean 1000 years in that context? Who can say? I still think Rev. 20 reads like a literal prophecy.

 

[ezrider]

That sounds like approximations, except 1000 symbolizing 2000 is not credible.

Why not? Is it not written a day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day?

 

[Consecrated Life]

The "left behind" narrative appears to conflict with scripture. It places the "rapture" before the antichrist is revealed, but 2 Thes. 2:3 clearly places the "rapture" (1st resurrection) AFTER the antichrist is revealed.

This issue came up when I read a statement by (the very respected and knowledgeable) David Jeremiah: "No, the Bible does not tell us who the Antichrist will be. In fact, Paul tells us in the second chapter of [2] Thessalonians that this coming world ruler will not be revealed until after the Rapture of the church. 'So if you ever reach the point where you think you know who he is, that must mean you have been left behind.'" (quoting Tim LaHaye, and agreeing). Quoted from "The Book of Signs," p. 248.

But that scripture clearly states the opposite (2 Thes. 2:3) "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed..."
"That day" is referring to v. 1 "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him" (i.e., the "rapture", or the 1 Cor. 15 resurrection.
"the man of lawlessness" is obviously referring to The Antichrist (which is the beast of Rev. 13).

Before vs. after - can anyone explain this conflict?

I'm a skeptic when it comes to constructed chronologies of eshcatology. I would like to believe in the Pre-trib idea, but I'm having a rough time with it. I haven't found anything anywhere that adequately explains this conflict. All I've seen so far is assertions and opinions. Can anyone help?

I know for a certainty that I have heard David Jerimiah state that according to scripture there is "NOTHING" that needs to happen before the rapture takes place .
David Jerimiah's reference is in regard to knowing who the anitchrist will be as an infant or child long before he comes to world power , by some means of lineage or other means.

What is & is not given as part of Prophecies identifying him pre-coming to power being the basis of Jerimiah's statement .
We cannot even know for certain if the cryptic sign of 666 is something that applies to the infant or the adult anti-christ .
What sense would it make for God to enable us to identify anti-christ as a child when it is God's will that he is to come to world power as an adult ?
Imagine if we had been told with the biblical certainty how to identify who Adolph Hitler was while he was still a baby?
Would we attempt to interfere with what the baby Hitler would cause to happen as a future leader ?
Tim LaHaye's statement is a completely different reference pointing specifically to identifying the anit-christ not with certainty through his assuming power , but, GUESSING who he is " think you know" thru his manifest gradual becoming a public figure , before coming to absolute power.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ps. 90:4 is used by Peter in 2 Pet. 3:8, and I've already shown it's about God's patience, so it's not symbolic. All the other verses you cite show in the context that 1000 is used exaggeratively to make a point. But the context of Rev. 20 is not exaggerative, and the 1000 years is not being used to make a point, but implies a literal 1000 years. There is a definite beginning and ending of it, with events described. It reads like a literal prophecy. So in this, I don't agree with your interpretation.

Thank you for that, but let me ask you a question.

When Christ returns on the last day, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28-29; 1Corinthians 15:50-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21, and we are then caught up to meet Him in the air, both alive and in their graves, what would be the reason for us staying here on this present earth with Jesus for a literal thousand years before Jesus makes an end to all the abominations here on earth?

IMO, I do not think that what is written in Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20 is going to take a literal 1000 years to accomplish.