The Lord Jesus Christ IS God's ELECT...

[Alabaster]

We're not the elect, CHRIST is.. and it's too bad that so many young Christians are being taught that they are the elect of God.

They are.

 

[Vic C.]

What we seemed to have overlooked is this: Jesus IS God and thus cannot elect Himself.

The Word is ripe with clear verses and passages that teach us we are God's elect. I say, let the cautious Bible student decide by using the whole body of scripture.

 

[Eventide]

What we seemed to have overlooked is this: Jesus IS God and thus cannot elect Himself.

Read Matthew 12:18 which is from Isaiah 42.. it's obvious that the Lord Jesus Christ is the elect, in Whom He delights.

The Word is ripe with clear verses and passages that teach us we are God's elect. I say, let the cautious Bible student decide by using the whole body of scripture.

Of course we are the elect IN CHRIST... because He is the elect.

Are all in Adam (flesh) under condemation... YES, that's crystal clear in the scriptures... may all be justified freely in Christ.. YES.. again, crystal clear in the scriptures.

 

[Eventide]

They are.

They are the elect IN CHRIST.

Not a single one elected in Adam... for all in Adam (flesh) are under the same condemnation.

Christians are members of WHOSE BODY..? That's right, CHRIST's body... and that's why they are the elect of God, because they are IN HIM.

 

[Alabaster]

We're not the elect, CHRIST is.. and it's too bad that so many young Christians are being taught that they are the elect of God.

versus

Of course we are the elect IN CHRIST... because He is the elect.

No one is the elect unless one is already in Christ. I think you are dealing in semantics here.

 

[Eventide]

versus

You can't see the diffrerence... ?

God didn't choose me... in fact.. He tells me plainly that IF I shall seek to save my life that I shall lose it.

God chose me IN CHRIST... and when was that..? Eph 1 makes it clear when that was.. it was after I trusted in Him, after hearing the gospel, and after I believed.

Unconditional election is perhaps one of the most damaging things which a young Christian could be taught.. because the focus in now on them rather than on CHRIST where it needs to be...

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me....

Who's the life there..? It's obviously CHRIST and He IS the way, the truth, and the LIFE.

 

[Alabaster]

You can't see the diffrerence... ?

God didn't choose me... in fact.. He tells me plainly that IF I shall seek to save my life that I shall lose it.

God chose me IN CHRIST... and when was that..? Eph 1 makes it clear when that was.. it was after I trusted in Him, after hearing the gospel, and after I believed.

Not so.

Ephesians 1:4 NLT
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.

 

[Eventide]

Not so.

Ephesians 1:4 NLT
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.

Notice that it doesn't say that God chose you or me, or any in Adam... did we forget that all are condemned in Adam ?

It says plainly that God chose us IN CHRIST before the world began, and that's simple to understand because God knows the end from the beginning.

 

[Alabaster]

Notice that it doesn't say that God chose you or me, or any in Adam... did we forget that all are condemned in Adam ?

It says plainly that God chose us IN CHRIST before the world began, and that's simple to understand because God knows the end from the beginning.

I have never heard anything different.

 

[Eventide]

Alabaster.. when God says that if ye shall seek to save your life ye shall lose it... how does that lead you to believe that He chose you..?

The answer is simple.. He didn't choose you, He chose you IN CHRIST.

FLESH (Adam) gives birth to the flesh.. Spirit gives birth to Spirit..

All condemned in Adam, all justified freely IN CHRIST, the Last Adam.

 

[Eventide]

I have never heard anything different.

So then you can see where unconditional election is not scriptural. All election is absolutely conditional upon being IN CHRIST.

 

[Alabaster]

So then you can see where unconditional election is not scriptural. All election is absolutely conditional upon being IN CHRIST.

I have never heard of unconditional election. Only those who have experienced the new birth have a sure election.

 

[Eventide]

I have never heard of unconditional election. Only those who have experienced the new birth have a sure election.

Glad to hear it... although I'm sure you'll hear about it sooner or later... it's rampant on Christian forums.

 

[Eventide]

I'm going to BUMP this one up as well..

 

[ivdavid]

For the record, I want to assert that a denomination driving one's beliefs is completely different from a person's beliefs classifying him into a denomination. The former is resting on the word of man - the latter need not be.

I say this because I do not want to be called a calvinist as if I learned from what he said (I've never read anything about him except what people critique him about). But if I am called a calvinist because it so happens that I hold the same beliefs that that denomination holds, then for the sake of convenience in classifying, I'm okay with it.

Unconditional election is perhaps one of the most damaging things which a young Christian could be taught.. because the focus in now on them rather than on CHRIST where it needs to be...

I think you haven't understood clearly about what unconditional election is or you've heard a very wrong version of it. The purpose of it is to give all glory to God, to praise the complete sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross and to remove any glory from being attributed to man - quite the opposite of what you're saying!

...it was after I trusted in Him, after hearing the gospel, and after I believed.

Every belief has to have an object of belief. What is your object of belief? In other words, complete the following statement of yours -
"I believed _________."


The following has nothing to do with the intent of the thread - just wanted to clarify -

in fact.. He tells me plainly that IF I shall seek to save my life that I shall lose it.

I've seen you repeat this quite often - I really didn't understand what you're getting at.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Isn't this about prioritizing what's important in this world between man's life and God's will? It has nothing against man seeking eternal life - that is what Christ came for.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Where does unconditional election feature in this? Pardon my lack of understanding in this.

 

[Eventide]

For the record, I want to assert that a denomination driving one's beliefs is completely different from a person's beliefs classifying him into a denomination. The former is resting on the word of man - the latter need not be.

I say this because I do not want to be called a calvinist as if I learned from what he said (I've never read anything about him except what people critique him about). But if I am called a calvinist because it so happens that I hold the same beliefs that that denomination holds, then for the sake of convenience in classifying, I'm okay with it.

So you're saying that you believe what Calvin believed.

I think you haven't understood clearly about what unconditional election is or you've heard a very wrong version of it. The purpose of it is to give all glory to God, to praise the complete sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross and to remove any glory from being attributed to man - quite the opposite of what you're saying!

Unconditional election is not biblical.. all election is conditional upon being in Christ.. all unconditional election does is take the focus off of the Lord Jesus Christ (and Him alone), and places it upon condemned men.

Every belief has to have an object of belief. What is your object of belief? In other words, complete the following statement of yours -
"I believed _________."

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

I've seen you repeat this quite often - I really didn't understand what you're getting at.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Isn't this about prioritizing what's important in this world between man's life and God's will? It has nothing against man seeking eternal life - that is what Christ came for.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Where does unconditional election feature in this? Pardon my lack of understanding in this.

As mentioned, all election IS conditional upon being IN CHRIST, because HE IS the elect of God, the chosen one in whom He delights.

I ask a simple question..

If you believe that YOU are God's elect, then why does HE say that if YOU shall seek to save YOUR LIFE that YOU shall lose it..

How can God be choosing YOU in light of that simple biblical truth ?

The point is that God isn't choosing YOU at all (nor is He choosing me, or any other in Adam).. He is choosing us IN CHRIST, because HE IS the elect of God.

Not you, not me, but the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[savedbygrace57]

eventide:

The scriptures prove conclusively that the Lord Jesus Christ is the elect,

Thats why there is a election, He is the Head and they the body. Christ was a public Person as Adam was. As Adam had a seed in Him, so Christ had a seed in Him..

The election of Christ proves the election of individuals, as the creation of Adam proved the creation of individuals..

 

[ivdavid]

Every belief has to have an object of belief. What is your object of belief? In other words, complete the following statement of yours -
"I believed _________."

1. What according to you, must we believe, in order to be in Christ? What should we believe to be saved? Fundamental question.

2. And did you believe the above by an exertion of your own will and power, independent of God, or were you given this faith - this ability to believe - by God?

3. What do you mean by "sinner"?
a) Is it one who commits sins among a little good that he also does, but which is not good enough before a perfect God?
OR
b) Is it one who is a rebel, enemy, hater of God, capable of doing not a single act of good before God's sight?

i) If you believe that YOU are God's elect, -
ii) then why does HE say that if YOU shall seek to save YOUR LIFE that YOU shall lose it..

I am really unable to see the connection between the 2 parts of the statement you made. How is one seeking[present continuous tense] to save his life when he believes that he is part of God's elect? He is able to believe that he's part of God's elect only because he is saved[past tense in the promise made, future tense in receiving the promise].

Or are you trying to infer from this verse that all who are trying to attain unto eternal life will lose it - and the ones who don't strive will make it on account of their not striving? If this is your meaning, then you are distorting the meaning of the verse - it applies only to how you should value your earthly life - nothing to do with your eternal life. In fact, Jesus appeals to the value of your eternal life constantly -
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness[Rom 3:21]; and all these things shall be added to you.

 

[Eventide]

1. What according to you, must we believe, in order to be in Christ? What should we believe to be saved? Fundamental question.

That Christ died for our sins.

2. And did you believe the above by an exertion of your own will and power, independent of God, or were you given this faith - this ability to believe - by God?

People believe the GOSPEL, and that comes from God.. it's not independent of God as many Calvinists are typically taught.

3. What do you mean by "sinner"?
a) Is it one who commits sins among a little good that he also does, but which is not good enough before a perfect God?
OR
b) Is it one who is a rebel, enemy, hater of God, capable of doing not a single act of good before God's sight?

One who sins... even a Christian can sin.

I am really unable to see the connection between the 2 parts of the statement you made. How is one seeking[present continuous tense] to save his life when he believes that he is part of God's elect? He is able to believe that he's part of God's elect only because he is saved[past tense in the promise made, future tense in receiving the promise].

Or are you trying to infer from this verse that all who are trying to attain unto eternal life will lose it - and the ones who don't strive will make it on account of their not striving? If this is your meaning, then you are distorting the meaning of the verse - it applies only to how you should value your earthly life - nothing to do with your eternal life. In fact, Jesus appeals to the value of your eternal life constantly -
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness[Rom 3:21]; and all these things shall be added to you.

You're avoiding the simple question...

Did God choose YOU ?

Why ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

eventide:

That Christ died for our sins.

What Christ are you talking about ? There are many false Christ being preached today, which one do you believe in.

Who is He, what did He accomplish on His cross and for who specifically.