The Lord Jesus Christ IS God's ELECT...

[Eventide]

eventide:



What Christ are you talking about ? There are many false Christ being preached today, which one do you believe in.

Who is He, what did He accomplish on His cross and for who specifically.

The Lord Jesus Christ.. the one who died not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world.

Not the nonsensical Christ of Calvinism... who you believe died for the elect.. because that doesn't make any sense at all.. HE IS the ELECT.. you're not, I 'm not.. HE IS.

 

[ivdavid]

What should we believe to be saved?

That Christ died for our sins.

1. And what does Christ's death for our sins accomplish - what is the intended end result of that sacrifice? I assume you will say that we are saved into eternal life by Christ's death on the cross. If not, correct me.
If so, then is Christ's death for our sins -
a) the direct and sufficient cause of our salvation
OR
b) the instrumental cause in making possible something else that is needed for our salvation?

2. In this verse - what does it mean to "believe in Christ"?
Joh 3:15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Surely, there is a difference between "believing something", "believing someone" and "believing in someone". So are we saved because we "believe something" or because we "believe someone" or because we "believe in someone"? Whichever your reply is - kindly elaborate on what you mean by that.

People believe the GOSPEL, and that comes from God.. it's not independent of God as many Calvinists are typically taught.

I too agree that the Gospel comes from God but that was not my question. I asked where does one's faith come from - from man himself or from God.

A correction - Calvinists do not believe anything is independent of God. They believe everything happens according to the sovereign will of God alone.

A clarification - I sense a bias in your statement where you think a Calvinist's belief has to be taught by some other man and cannot be derived directly from the Bible. This was what I tried to avoid in my initial assertion that a denomination driving one's beliefs is totally different from one's beliefs classifying him there. If a denomination taught me what to believe, then your statement is true. But if I arrived at it on my own and then found it to be what that denomination also believes, then why do you presume that I should have been taught of that denomination?

What do you mean by "sinner"?
a) Is it one who commits sins among a little good that he also does, but which is not good enough before a perfect God?
OR
b) Is it one who is a rebel, enemy, hater of God, capable of doing not a single act of good before God's sight?

One who sins... even a Christian can sin.

True, even Christians can commit sins - but Christians can also do good works in the sight of God by the working of the Spirit in them.
My question is this - can an unbeliever, who does not have the Spirit of God in him, do any good work in the sight of God or not?
a) Yes
b) No

 

[savedbygrace57]

eventide:

Not the nonsensical Christ of Calvinism... who you believe died for the elect.

Then you do not believe in the True and Biblical Christ, but one of your own imagination..

 

[ivdavid]

You're avoiding the simple question...
Did God choose YOU ?
Why ?

I didn't realize you were asking a question - I thought you were making a rhetorical statement to make a point.

Anyway, without making it personal, I'd say that a person believes in unconditional election because he is elected/chosen by God to be in Christ. And the reason God chooses him is based on nothing in that person but owing completely to the sovereign will of God - according to His own will and pleasure.

Alright, let's see if I've got this right -
1) You're saying that God has elected us in Christ alone.
2) You're against saying that God elected anyone apart from Christ.
and,
3) I'm saying that God has elected us to be in Christ.

There is such a conflict between these statements - what do you mean by God choosing us in Christ? Does it mean that God is making a statement saying that He will choose to save all those who are in Christ? I don't disagree with that at all.

But how does one get to be in Christ? Is it up to that person's choice? I assume you hold that view - and I'm of the opposite view. That nobody gets to choose to be in Christ unless the Father first chooses him to be in Christ.

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who is the one betraying Him.
Joh 6:65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.
Joh 6:66 From this time many of His disciples went back into the things behind, and walked no more with Him.

The response of the listener has no bearing on the truth of the matter spoken.
But if you really want to seek truth - analyze why you think calvinistic beliefs are wrong, and whether these objections are found in the Bible or not. Have you tested the claims of a calvinistic belief straight from the Bible or are you going by what you think is said in the Bible? Have you never seen a Christian believer who holds the Calvinistic doctrine - or are you going to discern all of them to have no knowledge of God?

 

[Eventide]

eventide:



Then you do not believe in the True and Biblical Christ, but one of your own imagination..

I know that's what you believe.. that's why I (and often nobody else) listens to your nonsense.

 

[Eventide]

1. And what does Christ's death for our sins accomplish - what is the intended end result of that sacrifice? I assume you will say that we are saved into eternal life by Christ's death on the cross. If not, correct me.
If so, then is Christ's death for our sins -
a) the direct and sufficient cause of our salvation
OR
b) the instrumental cause in making possible something else that is needed for our salvation?

2. In this verse - what does it mean to "believe in Christ"?
Joh 3:15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Surely, there is a difference between "believing something", "believing someone" and "believing in someone". So are we saved because we "believe something" or because we "believe someone" or because we "believe in someone"? Whichever your reply is - kindly elaborate on what you mean by that.

I'm not playing your 20 questions... if you have a point to make or a comment then simply say it..

I too agree that the Gospel comes from God but that was not my question. I asked where does one's faith come from - from man himself or from God.

Faith comes from God.. without God nobody would have faith... AGAIN, is there some point you're trying to make here.. I've been around the block a few times.. you need not treat me like I have no understanding of Christianity or of Calvinism.

A correction - Calvinists do not believe anything is independent of God. They believe everything happens according to the sovereign will of God alone.

I know.. even sin they often attribute to God.

A clarification - I sense a bias in your statement where you think a Calvinist's belief has to be taught by some other man and cannot be derived directly from the Bible. This was what I tried to avoid in my initial assertion that a denomination driving one's beliefs is totally different from one's beliefs classifying him there. If a denomination taught me what to believe, then your statement is true. But if I arrived at it on my own and then found it to be what that denomination also believes, then why do you presume that I should have been taught of that denomination?

Well if you're going to tell me that you came up with the exact beliefs of TULIP on your own then I'll simply laugh at that, is that ok ?

True, even Christians can commit sins - but Christians can also do good works in the sight of God by the working of the Spirit in them.
My question is this - can an unbeliever, who does not have the Spirit of God in him, do any good work in the sight of God or not?
a) Yes
b) No

I'm done with your questions while you avoid mine.. if you have something to say, then say it.

 

[Eventide]

I didn't realize you were asking a question - I thought you were making a rhetorical statement to make a point.

A simple question which you avoid for obvious reasons..

If God choose YOU, then why does He say that if ye shall seek to save your life that you'll lose it, and that if any man shall come after ME, he must DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross and follow Me..

Does that sound like God choosing YOU ?

Anyway, without making it personal, I'd say that a person believes in unconditional election because he is elected/chosen by God to be in Christ. And the reason God chooses him is based on nothing in that person but owing completely to the sovereign will of God - according to His own will and pleasure.

And again, that's unbiblical.. God chooses everyone IN CHRIST, after they TRUST in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and AFTER they BELIEVE.. that's a simple biblical fact and it applies to all Christians..

Alright, let's see if I've got this right -
1) You're saying that God has elected us in Christ alone.
2) You're against saying that God elected anyone apart from Christ.
and,
3) I'm saying that God has elected us to be in Christ.

Show me any scripture where it says that God chooses YOU to be In Christ..

There is such a conflict between these statements - what do you mean by God choosing us in Christ? Does it mean that God is making a statement saying that He will choose to save all those who are in Christ? I don't disagree with that at all.

But how does one get to be in Christ? Is it up to that person's choice? I assume you hold that view - and I'm of the opposite view. That nobody gets to choose to be in Christ unless the Father first chooses him to be in Christ.

The bible tells us how we are placed into Christ by God.. read Eph 1:13...

 

[ivdavid]

I'm not playing your 20 questions... if you have a point to make or a comment then simply say it..

Why are you so impatient? What if I have a point to make - and I make it - and you simply state the negation of that - have we progressed in our discussion? You will continue to hold on to your beliefs and I will do the same with mine with both of us having used this forum as a sound board instead of a discussion board. Isn't it better we try and find out which fundamental belief we really differ on?

I'm done with your questions while you avoid mine.. if you have something to say, then say it.

I am not avoiding your questions. You asked the question first - as part of my reply, I'm asking these questions. In your reply to these, my answer will be found. But for the sake of continuing the discussion,

your question is this -
"If God choose YOU, then why does He say that if ye shall seek to save your life that you'll lose it, and that if any man shall come after ME, he must DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross and follow Me..
Does that sound like God choosing YOU ? "
Yes, God does command and exhort us to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him, which if we do not do, we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. But what is your point?

Are you saying that we, in our own ability, can keep this commandment? Don't you know that it is God's Spirit in you who will work in you to obey this commandment? And don't you know that all who walk in the strength of the Spirit and not in the strength of their own ability in the flesh will not falter but will persevere to the end? And don't you know that God causes us Christians to will and to act according to His good pleasure? And don't you know that the Holy Spirit is given to all when they begin believing in Christ?

And so we're back to my question - what do you mean by "believing in Christ"?
Related to this is also why I asked the question - do you believe that an unbeliever without the Holy Spirit is able to do anything good in God's sight?

you need not treat me like I have no understanding of Christianity or of Calvinism.

No, I'm not treating you like that - by no means. But I do feel that you have some misunderstanding about the doctrines. If I thought you didn't know anything, I'd be patiently teaching you, not confirming what you already know. No need to be hostile.

I know.. even sin they often attribute to God.

Please prove this from some concrete source, or else retract it...

Well if you're going to tell me that you came up with the exact beliefs of TULIP on your own then I'll simply laugh at that, is that ok ?

Barring the 'L' in TULIP, you can find everything else here in my testimony.

And again, that's unbiblical.. God chooses everyone IN CHRIST, after they TRUST in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and AFTER they BELIEVE.. that's a simple biblical fact and it applies to all Christians..

True. True. One has to trust in Christ, has to believe in Christ and it applies to everybody.
But how does one believe? How does one trust Jesus Christ?

Faith comes from God.. without God nobody would have faith...

Are you going to counter this by saying that God has given everybody faith and that man has to choose to exercise such faith? - Then my question applies to that - how do the people who choose to exercise their faith do that - by themselves or by God?

So, God's election of grace decides who He shows mercy and compassion upon, to bestow the gift of faith by grace.
So, you see, While all you say is true, I'm only placing God as the true author of our salvation - who initiates and works till the end.

I read and understand Eph 1:13
So my answer to you lies in your answers to these -
What are we trusting in Christ for? What do we believe in Him for? Is His death on the cross a direct & sufficient cause or an instrumental cause for something else that is required for our salvation?

 

[Eventide]

Why are you so impatient? What if I have a point to make - and I make it - and you simply state the negation of that - have we progressed in our discussion? You will continue to hold on to your beliefs and I will do the same with mine with both of us having used this forum as a sound board instead of a discussion board. Isn't it better we try and find out which fundamental belief we really differ on?

I'm not impatient, simply heard this a thousand times and you've already stated your belief which is that God chose You TO BE in Christ..

I asked you to show me that in scripture and you avoided commenting upon that...

How come ?

Isn't that the bottom line.. your belief that God chose you TO BE in Christ ?

I don't believe that, I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sin of the world, for all in Adam and that His grace is UNTO all and UPON all that believe and trust in Him.. because there is no difference, all have sinned and are fallen short of the glory of God..

But the Calvinist needs a special calling.. one that is irresistable and that applies to individuals who are no less condemned than any other man in Adam.. and that God enabled these individuals to believe and trust in Him and to repent... but witholds this to others..

Is that fair enough assessment of what Calvinists believe and TEACH others.. ?

 

[ivdavid]

I'm not impatient, simply heard this a thousand times and you've already stated your belief which is that God chose You TO BE in Christ..
I asked you to show me that in scripture and you avoided commenting upon that...
How come ?

I'm sorry you missed it - I did provide it in post #64

But how does one get to be in Christ? Is it up to that person's choice? I assume you hold that view - and I'm of the opposite view. That nobody gets to choose to be in Christ unless the Father first chooses him to be in Christ.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who is the one betraying Him.
Joh 6:65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.
Joh 6:66 From this time many of His disciples went back into the things behind, and walked no more with Him.

Again please note, I do not believe in unconditional election because this passage says so - this only confirms it - I believe it because I find it fits into the whole scheme of things beginning at the cornerstone - Jesus Christ and our faith in Him. This is the reason I always make it a point to start clarifying if we're on the same page with respect to what it is we must believe in Him for.

But the Calvinist needs a special calling.. one that is irresistable and that applies to individuals who are no less condemned than any other man in Adam.. and that God enabled these individuals to believe and trust in Him and to repent... but witholds this to others..

Yes, this is what it pretty much is -

This topic has had its controversies - and I find that mainly because of some worldly philosophies that are being contradicted - I see no contradictions in the Bible on account of this.

I think I have answered all that you required answered - if you'd like to get back to what one must believe in Christ for.....

 

[Eventide]

I'm sorry you missed it - I did provide it in post #64

I wasn't asking about that.. I asked for scripture concerning this statement of yours;

I'm saying that God has elected us to be in Christ.

What scripture do you base that comment on..? That's the one question you didn't bother answering from the last response.

Again please note, I do not believe in unconditional election because this passage says so - this only confirms it - I believe it because I find it fits into the whole scheme of things beginning at the cornerstone - Jesus Christ and our faith in Him. This is the reason I always make it a point to start clarifying if we're on the same page with respect to what it is we must believe in Him for.

And again, 'unconditional election' is not biblical, simply because of the fact that ALL are elected IN CHRIST, and not in Adam.. that's certainly A condition.

Yes, this is what it pretty much is -

This topic has had its controversies - and I find that mainly because of some worldly philosophies that are being contradicted - I see no contradictions in the Bible on account of this.

The controversy is what this thread is all about.. that WE are not the elect, the LORD JESUS CHRIST is the elect, and we are chosen IN HIM.. all in Adam are condemned and their flesh remains condemned even after being placed into Christ.. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me.. AND.. put off the OLD MAN who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and put on the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Christians are the elect because they are members of the BODY OF CHRIST, and He (alone) is the ELECT.

Your old life isn't justified now that you're in Christ.. it is HIS LIFE in you that is justified.. FLESH gives birth to FLESH (and there is nothing GOOD in it) and the SPIRIT gives birth to the SPIRIT..

In light of these simple biblical truths.. why do you believe that God chose YOU individually, and yet only allows that for certain condemned men in Adam..?

I think I have answered all that you required answered - if you'd like to get back to what one must believe in Christ for.....

For the forgivness of our sins.. isn't that obvious ?

 

[ivdavid]

I'm saying that God has elected us to be in Christ.

What scripture do you base that comment on..?

The very fact that you're expecting something else tells me that I've misunderstood what you mean by "chosen/elected in Christ".

So let me get this straight -

WE are not the elect, the LORD JESUS CHRIST is the elect, and we are chosen IN HIM.

In simpler language it translates to - "we are not chosen, the LORD JESUS CHRIST is the one chosen, and we are chosen IN HIM.

Clarify your two different usages of the word "chosen". Also mention the reason of choosing and the basis of choosing.

...the fact that ALL are elected IN CHRIST....

Who does the "ALL" refer to who are chosen in Christ? Does it refer to only the body of believers or all mankind?

In case it refers to all mankind, then again clarify what you mean by "chosen in Christ". Does it mean that all unbelievers too are Christ's?

I'll answer every question of yours once you've clarified the above.

what one must believe in Christ for.....

For the forgivness of our sins.. isn't that obvious ?

Please don't think I'm running on a fool's errand here. It is obvious but go further on along this purpose of Christ's sacrifice and we'd reach the reason - to gift us eternal life / to save us into His kingdom - basically His act was for our salvation.

I hope we're agreeable on the above.

If so, then is Christ's death for our sins -
a) the direct and sufficient cause of our salvation
OR
b) the instrumental cause in making possible something else that is needed for our salvation?

You may choose not to answer, but it'll save us some posts if you do.

 

[Eventide]

The very fact that you're expecting something else tells me that I've misunderstood what you mean by "chosen/elected in Christ".

I'm expecting the scriptural reason as to why you claimed that God CHOSE/ELECTED You TO BE In Christ..

Elected means chosen, it's the same thing... and we know for a fact that the Lord chooses NONE in Adam.. in fact, every last one is condemned in Adam, in their FLESH.. flesh gives birth to flesh.. SPIRIT gives birth to SPIRIT..

Let's ask another simple question..

Which one does God choose or elect.. The FLESH or the SPIRIT.. ?

Pretty obvious isn't it ?

So let me get this straight -


In simpler language it translates to - "we are not chosen, the LORD JESUS CHRIST is the one chosen, and we are chosen IN HIM.

Clarify your two different usages of the word "chosen". Also mention the reason of choosing and the basis of choosing.

They're not different.. Christ is the ELECT, the Chosen One in whom the Father delights.. and every person who does trust in the Lord Jesus Christ is chosen IN HIM.. because they are members OF HIS BODY..

Who does the "ALL" refer to who are chosen in Christ? Does it refer to only the body of believers or all mankind?

In case it refers to all mankind, then again clarify what you mean by "chosen in Christ". Does it mean that all unbelievers too are Christ's?

Those who DO TRUST in Christ.. they are placed into the BODY OF CHRIST (who is the elect, the chosen of God) and they are therefore the elect of God.. because they are IN CHRIST.

I'll answer every question of yours once you've clarified the above.

I doubt it.. it appears to me that you're ignoring large portions of each post and simply respond to what you want to respond to.

Please don't think I'm running on a fool's errand here. It is obvious but go further on along this purpose of Christ's sacrifice and we'd reach the reason - to gift us eternal life / to save us into His kingdom - basically His act was for our salvation.

I hope we're agreeable on the above.

The word of God says that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.. and that whoever trusts in Him for the forgiveness of their sins shall be saved.. ie, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.. it doesn't mean that I do nothing and I'm automatically saved... that's not scriptural at all.

If so, then is Christ's death for our sins -
a) the direct and sufficient cause of our salvation
OR
b) the instrumental cause in making possible something else that is needed for our salvation?

You may choose not to answer, but it'll save us some posts if you do.

What MUST I do to be saved.. BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ.. the entire NT is based upon REPENTANCE toward God and FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ.. it's not a special irresistable call for certain individuals.. that's nowhere found in the bible.. but again.. many people need to be in some 'special' group and believe and TEACH others that God CHOSE THEM and that their calling was irresistable and that God chose them for absolutely NO REASON at all.. ie, unconditionally..

It's silly really..

Shall we go on ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

I know that's what you believe.. that's why I (and often nobody else) listens to your nonsense.

See, you call the Truth of God nonesense..

 

[savedbygrace57]

If Christ was elected, then so was His body, they are one ! 1 cor 12:12

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

rom 12:5

So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

[Eventide]

See, you call the Truth of God nonesense..

No, just YOU, and the MAN you follow.. lol

 

[savedbygrace57]

No, just YOU, and the MAN you follow.. lol

I follow the Man Jesus Christ who died for the sins of a chosen people exclusively..

 

[Eventide]

I follow the Man Jesus Christ who died for the sins of a chosen people exclusively..

No, you follow John Calvin.. a dead man. Every post you write is filtered through the nonsense of Calvinism.. and everyone here knows it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

No, you follow John Calvin

I follow Christ, a alive Man..

 

[Nathan]

even:



I follow Christ, a alive Man..

Actually....He is a risen Savior and King. Not just a man.