The Majority Text: Divine Preservation and Christian Reason

[miamited]

Now *that* is God's Providence.

Hi TMal3

I agree that if we take all the 'differences' found between the various textual translations of the Scriptures, that there's not a one of them that makes any difference to the account of all that God has done and is doing that man might find His salvation through His Son, Jesus. God's word rarely makes an important spiritual point that He wants us to understand...only once in the Scriptures. So, the fact that a particular sentence may be worded differently in some minor way, has never been proven to me to make any difference whatsoever in the overall message of God's word.

This is why we are encouraged to take in the whole of God's word and not just little bits and pieces that we might find throughout. As I've previously said, the best translation of the Scriptures is the one that reaches someone's heart with the mercy, love and grace of their Creator. Then shows that heart how they can attain God's promise of eternal life for those who have trusted in the work of Jesus for their sin.

I think we do God's word more injustice and cause greater confusion when we argue over a word here, or a sentence there, that may be different from one translation to another. Even with those minor variances from translation to translation, one can find the love of God and His plan for their salvation because none of those minor textual differences make one iota difference in the message of God's word to us...His created.

God bless,
Ted

 

[TMal3]

miamited

Well said! I think so much of Christianity today is buried underneath thousands of years of tradition and debates and splits over quibbles and squabbles about words like you have said. If I'm guilty of anything it's for erring on the side of the minimalist approach that wants to bypass all that tradition and even debates on the canon of Scripture and go back to the comparative simplicity of the first century church; before we had all these debates; before we have all the schisms; even before we had the Bible, which didn't come until ~300 years later.

I find it a breath of fresh air. I also find it improves my hermeneutics and is more accurate when we continually remind ourselves that we must interpret in the proper first century context of the time. Too often interpretation is done through the lens of a particular tradition, which then leads to misinterpretation and accusations against others of blasphemy when that interpretive lens is forgotten.

For example, in the present case it can sound blasphemous for me to point out that the Bible doesn't expressly teach that it (today's Bible) is the Word of God. That sounds so bad even to the one saying it (me! As I feel the indictment of my own Protestant tradition condemning me). It is difficult to separate the factual statement from what seems the natural emotional reaction ("You are saying the Bible's not authoritative!")---when, no, that is not what I'm saying. It IS authoritative. But that still doesn't change the fact that the proof texts Protestants (of my own tradition) use to support doctrines of Scripture are misuses of Scripture, itself.

I'm not sure how to point that out without being misunderstood or subjecting myself to such accusations. But for what's it's worth I find it refreshing and eye opening when we read the Bible in the way that it was meant to be understood.

Case in point, I just did a search on "the word" in the New Testament (not including the gospels; although that would add to the number), and out of the 90 or so verses in Acts-Revelation (I forget the exact amount), I discovered that in around 80 of those verses "the word," "the word of God," etc. refers to the gospel message that was preached (*maybe I should do a separate post on this). All my years growing up I would always read those verses as meaning "the Bible" (which has significant ramifications for one's theology!).

Now I see the New Testament in a whole new light. The gospel message of Christ's atoning death and resurrection was "the word" and "the word of God" to the apostles (*who did not anticipate the later Bible, but believed the Second Coming of Christ was imminent, and possibly would happen in their lifetime). They were all about the gospel and nothing but the gospel ("For I resolved to know nothing but Christ crucified"). And *everything* depended on, centered in, and revolved around the gospel message. So, yes, I'm guilty of being a minimalist, but I figure I can't go wrong if I follow Paul's lead.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe in God's Providence, too. No one's laying aside Scripture, only "rightly dividing it" (a verse which, by the way, is referring to the gospel message of Christ's death and resurrection, not the completed Bible). It is not enough to believe the Bible. We must also interpret it correctly.

True, the manuscripts comprising the Majority Text (Byzantine text type) are 99% in agreement. It's also true that the Alexandrian text type is 98% in agreement with the Byzantine text type. It's also true that the Alexandrian text type is older and quoted almost exclusively by the early church fathers. It's also true that the same Byzantine variant mistake getting recopied more times does not make it a more reliable witness.

Another important truth that you are forgetting is that the Majority Text does not necessarily reflect most manuscripts, but only most manuscripts still available to us today. We cannot say with confidence that the Majority Text truly reflects most manuscripts, because *most manuscripts* no longer exist. We know for a fact that different geographical regions (combined with the type of "paper" used) effects preservation, and almost all the Byzantine text type manuscripts come from the same geographical region and were preserved better as a result of the climate in that area and type of "paper" used. That alone shows the Majority Text is not representative of all, because the manuscripts are confined to a narrow geographical region. You might counter that that differential preservation simply reflects God's Providence too. But that would limit God's Providence to only us today, while the rest of Christians in the past 1,800 or so years are out of luck and are the sorry lots who did not have the advantage of all the accumulated manuscript knowledge that we have today, but were stuck with the manuscript they had no matter how riddled with errors.

But the good news (as I'm sure you are well aware) is that none of those variants in either the Byzantine or Alexandrian have obscured the gospel message of Christ's atoning death and resurrection. Now *that* is God's Providence.

Remember, the doctrine of inerrancy states that only the original autographs (which no one has) are inerrant. No one today has an error free Bible in their hands, but praise God that we all have an error-free gospel message (= "the word of God," according to the New Testament)!

The Bible is called the Word of God today by extension for that very reason, and I call it that too, but we must still remember that "word of God" in the Bible does not refer to the Bible. This is not academic, but has important ramifications for our theology and practice. For example, you wrote:

"Suppose I am wrong about this, and appear before God in Judgment and confess "I believed your Word, its precise wording and so did what I did."

Do you really think God would condemn that?"

My answer: No, I don't think God would condemn you for that (or for *not* so believing), because that is not what the Bible says we're going to be judged on the basis of.

The bottom line, regardless how you sugar coat it is "God didn't preserve His Word" so you rely upon men to restore it.

I do not. The Word of God is found in the Majority text. Misspellings, different word order, synonyms that don't change meaning, don't bother me one bit. God worked through vessels of clay and its defects, to make sure the final product was still His infallible Word.

As for the early church fathers, to my knowledge only Origin and Clement of Alexandria used the Alexandrian text type on occasion, the rest used the Byzantine.

ChatGPT:

The Greek Orthodox Church generally favors the Byzantine text type of the New Testament. The Byzantine text type has been the predominant text tradition used in the Greek-speaking Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition. This preference can be attributed to the historical and cultural context of the Byzantine Empire, which encompassed much of the Eastern Orthodox Church's early development.

The Byzantine text type, also known as the Majority Text or the Ecclesiastical Text, is characterized by its longer and more expansive readings compared to other text types, such as the Alexandrian text type. This text type was widely used and circulated throughout the Byzantine Empire and became the standard text type for liturgical use and theological study in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

The Greek Orthodox Church's preference for the Byzantine text type is reflected in the liturgical practices, lectionaries, and translations used within the tradition. The Greek Orthodox Church has historically employed editions of the Greek New Testament that adhere closely to the Byzantine text type, such as the Textus Receptus and the Patriarchal Text.

Frankly, the proposition God's People didn't have His NT for centuries, until secular scholars appeared, is absurd on the face of it.

 

[TMal3]

Who said God didn't preserve his word? And who said God's people didn't have the NT for centuries? Not I. If that's your take away, then you've severely misunderstood what I said.

And I'm sorry to burst your self-righteous bubble, but you're greatly deceived if you think you're relying on God, while those who use modern translations are "relying on men." The Bible you use is every bit as much the result of scholarship (Or, did the Majority Text fall in your lap direct from heaven?).

 

[Alfred Persson]

Who said God didn't preserve his word? And who said God's people didn't have the NT for centuries? Not I. If that's your take away, then you've severely misunderstood what I said.

And I'm sorry to burst your self-righteous bubble, but you're greatly deceived if you think you're relying on God, while those who use modern translations are "relying on men." The Bible you use is every bit as much the result of scholarship (Or, did the Majority Text fall in your lap direct from heaven?).

Can't have your cake and eat it too! Everything you said suggests the text of scripture is problematic, unknown. Even the canon is a mystery. To quote you, Post #83

Well said! I think so much of Christianity today is buried underneath thousands of years of tradition and debates and splits over quibbles and squabbles about words like you have said. If I'm guilty of anything it's for erring on the side of the minimalist approach that wants to bypass all that tradition and even debates on the canon of Scripture and go back to the comparative simplicity of the first century church; before we had all these debates; before we have all the schisms; even before we had the Bible, which didn't come until ~300 years later.


Just to make sure my bias isn't seeing "conflict" between the above and the conclusion "God preserved His Word", I asked ChatGPT for its "opinion" and it replied:

"By stating that they want to bypass debates on the canon of Scripture and go back to a time before the Bible, the author implies that the current Bible, as we have it, is not the true and preserved Word of God. They seem to suggest that the Bible is a product of later debates, schisms, and human traditions rather than a divinely preserved revelation.

This contradicts the idea that God has providentially preserved His Word throughout history, ensuring that the church has access to the very Word of God. The belief in the preservation of Scripture is a foundational tenet for many Christian traditions, including the belief that God's Word is inspired, authoritative, and unchanging."

 

[TMal3]

Alfred Persson

You caught me! Yes, I'm "guilty" of going straight to the Gospel. What a horrible "sin" to focus on that which is first and of greatest importance (1 Cor 15.3-5): the atoning death and resurrection of Christ.

Don't misquote or misrepresent people. That is disingenuous. I never said scripture was unknown. I never said the canon is a mystery. The manuscripts aren't perfect but those imperfections do not affect any major doctrine and I have stated as much. And so have you:

"Misspellings, different word order, synonyms that don't change meaning, don't bother me one bit."

I said nothing different. The message has still been preserved despite this.

And how "objective" and "unbiased" of you to feed cherry-picked quotes into ChatGPT while omitting the rest of what I've said:

"But the good news (as I'm sure you are well aware) is that none of those variants in either the Byzantine or Alexandrian have obscured the gospel message of Christ's atoning death and resurrection. Now *that* is God's Providence.

Remember, the doctrine of inerrancy states that only the original autographs (which no one has) are inerrant. No one today has an error free Bible in their hands, but praise God that we all have an error-free gospel message (= "the word of God," according to the New Testament)!"

Misrepresenting another person's position. Not cool Alfred.

 

[TMal3]

Why don't we just cut to the chase: can a person who uses a modern Bible translation still come to a saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson

You caught me! Yes, I'm "guilty" of going straight to the Gospel. What a horrible "sin" to focus on that which is first and of greatest importance (1 Cor 15.3-5): the atoning death and resurrection of Christ.

Don't misquote or misrepresent people. That is disingenuous. I never said scripture was unknown. I never said the canon is a mystery. The manuscripts aren't perfect but those imperfections do not affect any major doctrine and I have stated as much. And so have you:

"Misspellings, different word order, synonyms that don't change meaning, don't bother me one bit."

I said nothing different. The message has still been preserved despite this.

And how "objective" and "unbiased" of you to feed cherry-picked quotes into ChatGPT while omitting the rest of what I've said:

"But the good news (as I'm sure you are well aware) is that none of those variants in either the Byzantine or Alexandrian have obscured the gospel message of Christ's atoning death and resurrection. Now *that* is God's Providence.

Remember, the doctrine of inerrancy states that only the original autographs (which no one has) are inerrant. No one today has an error free Bible in their hands, but praise God that we all have an error-free gospel message (= "the word of God," according to the New Testament)!"

Misrepresenting another person's position. Not cool Alfred.

I didn't cherry pick or misrepresent you, and ChatGPT agrees.

You suddenly realize what faithless beliefs you have about scripture, and are rightly horrified.

Repent. Don't blame me for your faithless words.

Here's some more examples:

According to you Protestants use a different Bible, none of God's promises to preserve His Word applies to the NT, only the Torah. Only the Gospel message of the Church is "the Word of God" and preserved, not the NT because it didn't exist:

The problem that emerges is that different believers will cite these very same verses to "justify" their particular version of the (protestant) Bible that they use or even to "justify" (non-protestant) versions of the Bible. But these verses do not specify which Bible they are referring to and in fact are not referring to the whole Bible but to the Old Testament and the Torah (Law). We need to be careful not to substitute the word "Bible" everywhere we see the phrase "word of God" in the Bible because that is anachronistic, and causes misinterpretation of the verses. For example, most uses of "word of God" in the New Testament refer to the good news gospel message that was preached; not the completed Bible, which didn't yet exist.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Why don't we just cut to the chase: can a person who uses a modern Bible translation still come to a saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ?

Of course. The greatest intellect will never stop learning every time he reads, but scripture can make even a child "wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus"

14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:14-4:1 NKJ)

Your theories about the "word of God" being whatever the church says, is the reverse of what Scripture teaches.

God wrote scripture so that the man of God would be fully equipped for every good work.

For example, the good work of knowing the "saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ."

Also the good work of knowing when a church has departed from the faith.

Christ predicted the organized church would become infested with demons, a "woman" kneading in sinful leaven until all is leavened, "the great falling away":

19 "It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches."
20 And again He said, "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21 "It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened." (Lk. 13:19-21 NKJ)

The "woman" in that parable is the Harlot Babylon.

Some parts of the church resemble the Great Harlot so well, many believers mistakenly believe the apostate church is Babylon.

But that can't be, Harlot Babylon was born in the Tower of Babel (Babylon) and reappears visibly in the End Time riding the NWO of the Beast.

3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.
5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. (Rev. 17:3-7 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson

You caught me! Yes, I'm "guilty" of going straight to the Gospel. What a horrible "sin" to focus on that which is first and of greatest importance (1 Cor 15.3-5): the atoning death and resurrection of Christ.

Don't misquote or misrepresent people. That is disingenuous. I never said scripture was unknown. I never said the canon is a mystery. The manuscripts aren't perfect but those imperfections do not affect any major doctrine and I have stated as much. And so have you:

"Misspellings, different word order, synonyms that don't change meaning, don't bother me one bit."

I said nothing different. The message has still been preserved despite this.

And how "objective" and "unbiased" of you to feed cherry-picked quotes into ChatGPT while omitting the rest of what I've said:

"But the good news (as I'm sure you are well aware) is that none of those variants in either the Byzantine or Alexandrian have obscured the gospel message of Christ's atoning death and resurrection. Now *that* is God's Providence.

Remember, the doctrine of inerrancy states that only the original autographs (which no one has) are inerrant. No one today has an error free Bible in their hands, but praise God that we all have an error-free gospel message (= "the word of God," according to the New Testament)!"

Misrepresenting another person's position. Not cool Alfred.

It just occurred to me, your entire thesis about the Bible lacks one simple element, "context". Whatever happens in "History" (God's Story) has God overseeing all. Therefore, the process of canonization was known to God even as Paul (inspired by God), wrote this:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

Or when God the Eternal Son, said this:

18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:18-20 NKJ)

In other words, your argument "the NT Bible didn't exist" when Christ or Paul said these things, is invalid and unsound. It is "unhistorical", all occurred during "His-Story", which exists in Infinite God. Past present future are "now" to God.

 

[TMal3]

Alfred Persson

It's quite simple. You have added teaching to Scripture that isn't taught in Scripture, like the process of canonization. Show me in Scripture where "the process of canonization" is taught in Scripture. You can't, because it doesn't exist. You have read a process that happened 300 years later back into Scripture to try to justify a process (by NON-inspired men) that came 300 years after Scripture.

You have committed the errors I have warned about, proving my point. Like citing 2 Tim 3.16-17 and erroneously applying it to what you have personally deemed to be the "correct" Bible (the Majority Text), when the verse is only referring to the Old Testament. You have cited Matt 5.18-20 where Jesus even states that he is referring to the Law (Torah) and erroneously applied it to the entire Bible. You have misrepresented the Lord's own words!

Your statement that my "argument" that that the "NT Bible didn't exist" when Paul and Christ said these things is "invalid" is wrong on both counts because not only is it valid, but what I said is not an argument, but a statement of fact: the NT did not exist yet! (*existing in the mind of God is not existing in human history, and assumes what you have yet to prove and what is not expressly taught in Scripture itself!).

I could do that with anything to try to justify it. Like papal succession: it's not taught in Scripture but Jesus did talk about commissioning the apostles, so I can rip it out of context (like you do with 2 Tim 3 & Matt 5 above) and apply it to papal succession and also say that God already saw papal succession later in history (because its "HIS-story") and established it after the fact by His divine Providence just like you argue with the process of canonization which is also not taught in Scripture and comes 300 years after the fact!

You can literally "justify" any erroneous teaching that way!

And then your accusation: "Your theory that "the word" of God is whatever the church says is the reverse of what Scripture teaches"---is concerning on so many levels. First, I never said it is what the church teaches (I'm not Catholic! But you had to twist my words to make it fit with your "Babylon harlot" accusation). I said it's what Scripture itself teaches, not the church! (You seriously need to stop misrepresenting people's words; that shows a lack of integrity and is the antithesis of being a truthful believer. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your repeated misrepresentations of what I say were unintentionally done).

I said most references to "the word," "word of God," etc. in the NT are referring to the gospel message that was preached by the apostles of Christ's atoning death and resurrection--which is a fact. You see my statement of Scriptural truth as being in error, and "invalid," and "faithless" to Scripture, when it is literally what Scripture teaches! And then you take things that come after Scripture and read them back into Scripture when they are not taught in Scripture, and then try to "justify" it by saying God is past-present-future so there is no history (it's "unhistorical" & "HIS-story").

Can you not see how twisted that is? I'm guessing not. Well, you can make all the claims you want about how what is NOT taught in Scripture actually is, and try to claim that what actually IS taught in Scripture is not, but it doesn't change the truth of what is actually taught in Scripture!

Like the fact that most references to "the word," "the word of God," etc. in the NT are referring to the gospel message that was preached by the apostles of Christ's atoning death and resurrection. (If you think that's in "error," then I don't what "Bible" you're reading):

 

[TMal3]

Acts 4:31 NAS
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
Acts 6:2 NAS
2 So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables.
Acts 6:4 NAS
4 "But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."
Acts 6:7 NAS
7 The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.
Acts 8:4 NAS
4 Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word.
Acts 8:14 NAS
14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
Acts 8:25 NAS
25 So, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord , they started back to Jerusalem, and were preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.
Acts 10:36 NAS
36 "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all )-
Acts 11:1 NAS
1 Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
Acts 11:19 NAS
19 So then those who were scattered because of the persecution that occurred in connection with Stephen made their way to Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except to Jews alone.
Acts 12:24 NAS
24 But the word of the Lord continued to grow and to be multiplied.
Acts 13:5 NAS
5 When they reached Salamis, they began to proclaim the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews; and they also had John as their helper.
Acts 13:7 NAS
7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence. This man summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.
Acts 13:44 NAS
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord .
Acts 13:46 NAS
46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:48 NAS
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord ; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Acts 13:49 NAS
49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.
Acts 14:3 NAS
3 Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord , who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands.
Acts 14:25 NAS
25 When they had spoken the word in Perga, they went down to Attalia
Acts 15:7 NAS
7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren , you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Acts 15:35 NAS
35 But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching with many others also, the word of the Lord
Acts 15:36 NAS
36 After some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord , and see how they are."
Acts 16:6 NAS
6 They passed through the Phrygian and Galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia;
Acts 16:32 NAS
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.

 

[TMal3]

Acts 17:11 NAS
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Acts 17:13 NAS
13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica found out that the word of God had been proclaimed by Paul in Berea also, they came there as well, agitating and stirring up the crowds.
Acts 18:5 NAS
5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ
Acts 18:11 NAS
11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Acts 19:10 NAS
10 This took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord , both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 19:20 NAS
20 So the word of the Lord was growing mightily and prevailing.
Acts 20:32 NAS
32 "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified

Romans 10:8 NAS
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart "-that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
Romans 10:17 NAS
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:18 NAS
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 14:36 NAS
36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?
1 Corinthians 15:2 NAS
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
2 Corinthians 2:17 NAS
17 For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.
2 Corinthians 4:2 NAS
2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God

2 Corinthians 5:19 NAS
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation
Galatians 6:6 NAS
6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him
Ephesians 1:13 ESV
13 In him also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation
Ephesians 5:26 NAS
26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Ephesians 6:17 NAS
17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Philippians 1:14 NAS
14 and that most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear
Philippians 2:16 NAS
16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
Colossians 1:5 NAS
5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel
Colossians 1:25 NAS
25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God
Colossians 3:16 NAS
16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God
Colossians 4:3 NAS
3 praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned

 

[TMal3]

1 Thessalonians 1:5 NAS
5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake
1 Thessalonians 1:6 NAS
6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord , having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
1 Thessalonians 1:8 NAS
8 For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 NAS
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord , that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord , will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
2 Thessalonians 3:1 NAS
1 Finally, brethren, pray for us that the word of the Lord will spread rapidly and be glorified, just as it did also with you;
1 Timothy 4:5 NAS
5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer

2 Timothy 2.8-9
8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!
2 Timothy 2:9 NAS
9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.

2 Timothy 2:15 NAS
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
2 Timothy 4:2 NAS
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction

3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior
Titus 1:3 NAS
3 but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,
Titus 1:9 NAS
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
Titus 2:5 NAS
5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored
Hebrews 4:2 NAS
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard

Hebrews 6:5 NAS
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hebrews 13:7 NAS
7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.
James 1:18 NAS
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
James 1:21 NAS
21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
James 1:22 NAS
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
James 1:23 NAS
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
1 Peter 1:23 NAS
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God
1 Peter 1:25 NAS
25 BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.
1 Peter 2:2 NAS
2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
1 Peter 2:8 NAS
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE "; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed
1 Peter 3:1 NAS
1 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,
1 John 2:7 NAS
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
1 John 2:14 NAS
14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one
Revelation 1:2 NAS
2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
Revelation 1:9 NAS
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 6:9 NAS
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
Revelation 20:4 NAS
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson

It's quite simple. You have added teaching to Scripture that isn't taught in Scripture, like the process of canonization. Show me in Scripture where "the process of canonization" is taught in Scripture. You can't, because it doesn't exist. You have read a process that happened 300 years later back into Scripture to try to justify a process (by NON-inspired men) that came 300 years after Scripture.

You have committed the errors I have warned about, proving my point. Like citing 2 Tim 3.16-17 and erroneously applying it to what you have personally deemed to be the "correct" Bible (the Majority Text), when the verse is only referring to the Old Testament. You have cited Matt 5.18-20 where Jesus even states that he is referring to the Law (Torah) and erroneously applied it to the entire Bible. You have misrepresented the Lord's own words!

Your statement that my "argument" that that the "NT Bible didn't exist" when Paul and Christ said these things is "invalid" is wrong on both counts because not only is it valid, but what I said is not an argument, but a statement of fact: the NT did not exist yet! (*existing in the mind of God is not existing in human history, and assumes what you have yet to prove and what is not expressly taught in Scripture itself!).

I could do that with anything to try to justify it. Like papal succession: it's not taught in Scripture but Jesus did talk about commissioning the apostles, so I can rip it out of context (like you do with 2 Tim 3 & Matt 5 above) and apply it to papal succession and also say that God already saw papal succession later in history (because its "HIS-story") and established it after the fact by His divine Providence just like you argue with the process of canonization which is also not taught in Scripture and comes 300 years after the fact!

You can literally "justify" any erroneous teaching that way!

And then your accusation: "Your theory that "the word" of God is whatever the church says is the reverse of what Scripture teaches"---is concerning on so many levels. First, I never said it is what the church teaches (I'm not Catholic! But you had to twist my words to make it fit with your "Babylon harlot" accusation). I said it's what Scripture itself teaches, not the church! (You seriously need to stop misrepresenting people's words; that shows a lack of integrity and is the antithesis of being a truthful believer. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that your repeated misrepresentations of what I say were unintentionally done).

I said most references to "the word," "word of God," etc. in the NT are referring to the gospel message that was preached by the apostles of Christ's atoning death and resurrection--which is a fact. You see my statement of Scriptural truth as being in error, and "invalid," and "faithless" to Scripture, when it is literally what Scripture teaches! And then you take things that come after Scripture and read them back into Scripture when they are not taught in Scripture, and then try to "justify" it by saying God is past-present-future so there is no history (it's "unhistorical" & "HIS-story").

Can you not see how twisted that is? I'm guessing not. Well, you can make all the claims you want about how what is NOT taught in Scripture actually is, and try to claim that what actually IS taught in Scripture is not, but it doesn't change the truth of what is actually taught in Scripture!

Like the fact that most references to "the word," "the word of God," etc. in the NT are referring to the gospel message that was preached by the apostles of Christ's atoning death and resurrection. (If you think that's in "error," then I don't what "Bible" you're reading):

If you believe scripture is the inspired Word of God, then your argument fails.

Once you accept the premise God inspired the scriptures, then linear time isn't as definitive as you want it to be.

Its true I accept a cannon that Christians established, but I agree with the criteria. Books received by the entire church and authored by apostles or those they commissioned.

Cannon set by the church centuries later, using different criteria, I don't accept.

Because God providentially had His scripture appear in all the churches within that time.

The apocryphal books were never received by the entire church---even many Roman Catholics disputed them, as long as they could.


I am blessed by God to have a completed Bible. I consider your argument against this, immaterial and incompetent.

Frankly, constant communion with God Father Son and Holy Spirit would be impossible for me if I didn't know beyond any reasonable doubt, All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial....:

God speaks to my spirit directly, using the very words of God in the Bible, God bearing witness to my conscience (Rom. 9:1). Scripture is the Sword by which the Holy Spirit reveals to me His truth, and my failings:

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.(Heb. 4:12-13 NKJ)

11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints-- (Eph. 6:11-18 NKJ)

103 How sweet are Your words to my taste, Sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.
105 NUN. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.
106 I have sworn and confirmed That I will keep Your righteous judgments.
(Ps. 119:103-106 NKJ)

 

[TMal3]

Nice try. I do believe the Bible is inspired and authoritative (plus, I'm interpreting it correctly by sound hermeneutic principles that require us to interpret in the proper context), so your little argument falls apart.

But nice deflection attempt. Don't think it has escaped my notice (nor will it escape the notice of others who read this exchange) that you are appealing to Scripture without actually backing up what you say from Scripture and are reading back into Scripture what doesn't exist, and claiming Scripture doesn't say what it actually says!

 

[TMal3]

But let's invite others to weigh in:
miamited
hawkman
for_his_glory

 

[TMal3]

And while we're waiting, I still await the your answer to the question you avoided:

"Why don't we just cut to the chase: can a person who uses a modern Bible translation still come to a saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ?"

 

[Alfred Persson]

Nice try. I do believe the Bible is inspired and authoritative (plus, I'm interpreting it correctly by sound hermeneutic principles that require us to interpret in the proper context), so your little argument falls apart.

But nice deflection attempt. Don't think it has escaped my notice (nor will it escape the notice of others who read this exchange) that you are appealing to Scripture without actually backing up what you say from Scripture and are reading back into Scripture what doesn't exist, and claiming Scripture doesn't say what it actually says!

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:18 NKJ)

Our LORD Jesus said this about the Torah. But what does the Torah say?

"The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, (Deut. 18:15 NKJ)

Jesus is that Prophet. What did Jesus command?

14 "And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.
15 "Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! (Matt. 10:14-15 NKJ)

Therefore, we pay heed to His apostles in obedience to Torah.

What did His apostle say about scripture?

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

What today is deemed scripture by all the church throughout the world?

The 66 books of the cannon God providentially had the church set.


I rest my case.

PS: I believe you are "on your own", some of those you want to weigh in, likely agree the Bible exists today, that it is the very Word of God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

And while we're waiting, I still await the your answer to the question you avoided:

"Why don't we just cut to the chase: can a person who uses a modern Bible translation still come to a saving knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ?"

I already proved they can, citing the apostle Paul:

KJV 2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


For fun, and because its pertinent to your canon argument, I dug up a response of mine to Steve Ray, Catholic apologist. I was too lazy to remove HTML code for under line and bold in brackets. But they mark off the "oral tradition" that became scripture:

#5) Some Protestants claim that St. Paul condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8). If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thes 2:15) and praises the Corinthians because they “hold firmly to the traditions” (1 Cor 11:2)?

(And why does the Protestant NIV change the word “tradition” to “teaching”?)

Taking the last, first: If there were a vast Protestant conspiracy behind the NIV's translation, no one got the memo: the KJV, ASV, CJB, CSB, ERV, ESV, GWN, NET, JJB, NKJ, NRS, RSV, RWB, WEB versions all render paradosis as "tradition."

The NIV translators state quite clearly in their introduction they sought to give the “dynamic equivalence” of the Greek, in English, using as many words as needed to accomplish that. Its not a “literal translation” if one defines “literal” as “word for word.” As "tradition" essentially is teaching handed down, “teaching” can be used to translate the Greek into English.

3862 paradosis

Meaning: 1) giving up, giving over 1a) the act of giving up 1b) the surrender of cities 2) a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc. 2a) objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching.-Strong’s Dictionary

“Some Protestants?” Try ZERO Protestants, all say Paul condemned only “tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Mr. Ray is also wrong about 2 Thess 2:15, it proves oral tradition existed then, not today.

What happened to this oral tradition? It became scripture in the 21 Bible books written after this:

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. A.D.49-50

Mattew 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.-A.D. 50-60

Mark 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.- A.D.50-60

1 Thessalonians 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, 12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. -A.D. 51

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? -A.D. 51-52

2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. -A.D. 51-52

1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.-A.D. 55.

Luke 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 8 And they remembered his words, - A.D.60-61

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.-A.D. 62

Acts 20:35 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. -A.D. 62

2 Pet 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:-A.D.67-68

Jude 1:17-18 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.-A.D.68-70

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.-A.D. 80-90

John 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.- A.D.80-90

Finally, if the oral tradition Paul referred to in 2 Thessalonians existed in the Catholic Church, then Stephen Ray would have an inspired table of contents, listing its content, and the text, to show us.... Surely by now someone would have written it down!

Indeed, it would be so easy for Catholics to "win" the "sola scriptura" argument...just produce the traditions from the lips of Christ and His apostles, that they gave to the church, not found in our Bibles. An infallible text please...not substitutes, and don't forget the inspired, infallible table of contents with it, lest Catholic apologists manifest how inconsistent they are, applying to Scripture what they consider impossible and unfair to apply to their own traditions.

If oral tradition failed to become scripture, it was lost forever.

Catholics certainly don’t have it, just ask them for the text of the precise Tradition Paul was referring to in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. They will make excuses, incredibly some even blubber “oral means it can't be written down!”…what a crock! The entire Bible was once oral tradition, until written down!

We can be certain no oral tradition necessary to be made “wise unto salvation” was lost:

KJV 2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works