That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
Perhaps that explains why you don't know what the name of the Beast will be?
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
The Majority Text: Divine Preservation and Christian Reason
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
Perhaps that explains why you don't know what the name of the Beast will be?
I did consider it, and rejected the idea because in Rev. 12 the Dragon himself is the beast:
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. (Rev. 12:3-4 NKJ)
In Rev. 13 its the final World Government, first headed by the "Man of Sin" (hence it has a mouth like a lion), and then at "mid-week" the "Man of Sin" reveals he actually is the Seed of Satan "Son of Destruction". Then the Monster is given a blasphemous mouth:
NKJ Revelation 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. (Rev. 13:1-6 NKJ)
So they are different beasts. The Dragon is "god of this world", he controls the earth through governments since the Tower of Babylon, that's what they seven heads and ten horns symbolize, control of the earth.
Hi for_his_glory
I've said my piece. For me, the best translation of the Scriptures is always the one that opens the heart of the reader to know and accept the truth of God's desire for them. I grew up on the NIV and have always found it to be a perfectly acceptable translation of the Scriptures. It doesn't fail in any point to ensure that God's word does not return void and will accomplish its purpose.
They are somehow stuck on this idea that Erasmus and the King James collaborators had some special dispensation from God through His Holy Spirit to write what they wrote. For me, I think that all of the collaborators on the many newer versions are also working with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, because I believe that God wants His word to be translated and disseminated among all the people of every tribe and tongue and nation. For a while the Geneva Bible was the only 'true' bible. Then the KJ bible became the only 'true' bible. The bible, since it's inception as a collection of writings somewhere in the 2nd-3rd century, has been translated and rewritten by translators dozens of times.
Sadly, up until the Guttenberg press, most people couldn't afford to actually own a bible and had to do a lot more memorization and likely may have only had access to the Scriptures through their fellowship. However, today, with modern printing methods, there is a thirst for the knowledge of God's word among many people. So we have lots of bibles and many very dedicated and believing people who have made it their life's work to, as accurately as possible, provide God's word in the hands of the people.
I for one am thankful that I live in this day where everyone can have a copy of the Scriptures. I just don't know what it must have been like for new believers in 900 A.D. who came to the Lord, but didn't have the resources of the Scriptures so readily available as we do today.
God bless,
Ted
No, and I'm really not prepared to delve into the depths of the Revelation of Jesus. However, on this thread we are discussing this, to me, nonsensical idea that the Majority text is the only reliable text. Not even the KJ translation that the OP is claiming is the greater translation is based solely on the Majority text. He doesn't want to hear that and he's stuck on his version and that's great for him.
I've said my piece. For me, the best translation of the Scriptures is always the one that opens the heart of the reader to know and accept the truth of God's desire for them. I grew up on the NIV and have always found it to be a perfectly acceptable translation of the Scriptures. It doesn't fail in any point to ensure that God's word does not return void and will accomplish its purpose.
They are somehow stuck on this idea that Erasmus and the King James collaborators had some special dispensation from God through His Holy Spirit to write what they wrote. For me, I think that all of the collaborators on the many newer versions are also working with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, because I believe that God wants His word to be translated and disseminated among all the people of every tribe and tongue and nation. For a while the Geneva Bible was the only 'true' bible. Then the KJ bible became the only 'true' bible. The bible, since it's inception as a collection of writings somewhere in the 2nd-3rd century, has been translated and rewritten by translators dozens of times.
Sadly, up until the Guttenberg press, most people couldn't afford to actually own a bible and had to do a lot more memorization and likely may have only had access to the Scriptures through their fellowship. However, today, with modern printing methods, there is a thirst for the knowledge of God's word among many people. So we have lots of bibles and many very dedicated and believing people who have made it their life's work to, as accurately as possible, provide God's word in the hands of the people.
I for one am thankful that I live in this day where everyone can have a copy of the Scriptures. I just don't know what it must have been like for new believers in 900 A.D. who came to the Lord, but didn't have the resources of the Scriptures so readily available as we do today.
God bless,
Ted
There are many majority rule teachings all claiming truth, but yet there is only one word, one truth as only the Holy Spirit can teach us all truths if we are truly hearing what the Spirit of God is speaking to us.
I know, we all say that the Holy Spirit is teaching us, but if what we teach others does not line up with scripture then let all men/women be liars and God be the judge of what we teach as each one of us will stand before God and give an account.
There are so many different translations of the Bible being written in English, which is the hardest language to learn as many English words take on many definitions of just one word, but when it's taken out of context then we get all these various teachings that takes away from the original manuscripts. This is why one verse alone usually can not stand alone without the full context of the verses before and after it. We could take the vs. Jesus cried, but if we didn't read the full reason then the imagination will run wild. We can't reason with a carnal mind or logical thoughts as the carnal mind is a hostile enemy against the Spirit, Romans 8:7-8.
Do you argue for the sake of arguing as I already said the dragon is the beast, in particular the beast out of the sea in Rev 13:1.
The great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his head, Rev 12:3, is Satan being the beast out of the sea that gives its power to the beast out of the earth. This beast out of the sea is a Luciferian system that controls world wide economics, political, military, educational, environmental and false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth, Rev 13, as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 who will cause all to bow down to him and take the mark of this beast or die a martyrs death, Rev 13:15.
Not arguing for the sake of arguing. Elementary deduction, as the Dragon is the beast in c. 12, he can't be the composite animal beast of c. 13.
I agree the beast out of the sea is the New World Government, a Luciferin system controlling earth's resources.
But I disagree the two horned ram (its ram in Greek, but translators interpret lamb) is the false Christ. The Antichrist beast comes first as "the false Christ" and at mid-week, declares himself to be the "son of Destruction" seed of Satan (2 Th. 2:3-3; Gen. 3:15).
Just as the two-horned Ram in Daniel represented a dual government power, so in Revelation. Its Britian and America, they will unite under the "False Prophet" and their combined military might supports the beast.
Satan has been seeding both governments with "fallen angel" technology (disguised as UFO tech), for decades now. They use that to support the Beast and his Mark membership 666 economy.
But we will never agree on this. My views are posted here:
The Grecian-Roman Empire with Seven Heads and Ten Horns | End Time News
The monster having seven heads and ten horns (Rev. 13:1-5) is the last global government to rise in the seven-year end time "week" before the coming Kingdom of God. In the book of Daniel this is the fourth and last government beast to rise (Dan. 7:7). Because it is a Grecian version of the old
endtimenews.net
A minor correction. I realize the KJV isn't the majority text, but the TR it translates is virtually the same. Insignificant differences.
More importantly, you rejected my "Divine Providence" argument. Its inconsistent with most Christian belief to suppose God doesn't have a Plan, that things occur without His direction. I simply build on that, and say the "majority reading" in all the manuscripts is the one "Divine Providence" created. AND as it doesn't require subjective criteria to know which reading is "the Majority" I prefer it to what scholars do.
I trust God preserved His word more than the men who claim He did not.
And only the willfully ignorant doesn't know the new versions are missing verses. The NIV 16. If they aren't missing, they are bracketed or put in italics to distinguish it from scripture.
Last edited:
Where does it say animal beast in Rev 13 as John says this beast is likened unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. You do realize Satan is a fallen angel/spirit, not flesh and blood, and has to work through others in order to fulfil his purpose on earth.Not arguing for the sake of arguing. Elementary deduction, as the Dragon is the beast in c. 12, he can't be the composite animal beast of c. 13.
I agree the beast out of the sea is the New World Government, a Luciferin system controlling earth's resources.
But I disagree the two horned ram (its ram in Greek, but translators interpret lamb) is the false Christ. The Antichrist beast comes first as "the false Christ" and at mid-week, declares himself to be the "son of Destruction" seed of Satan (2 Th. 2:3-3; Gen. 3:15).
Just as the two-horned Ram in Daniel represented a dual government power, so in Revelation. Its Britian and America, they will unite under the "False Prophet" and their combined military might supports the beast.
Satan has been seeding both governments with "fallen angel" technology (disguised as UFO tech), for decades now. They use that to support the Beast and his Mark membership 666 economy.
But we will never agree on this. My views are posted here:
The Grecian-Roman Empire with Seven Heads and Ten Horns | End Time News
The monster having seven heads and ten horns (Rev. 13:1-5) is the last global government to rise in the seven-year end time "week" before the coming Kingdom of God. In the book of Daniel this is the fourth and last government beast to rise (Dan. 7:7). Because it is a Grecian version of the oldendtimenews.net
Where does it say Britain and America in the Bible? Do you honestly think that the beast out of the earth that is the son of perdition/false Christ is going to declare to the world he is a false Christ! Ya, that will draw people to bow down to him and worship this beast. It is Christ that will reveal to the world who the son of perdition is when He returns on the last day, 2Thessalonians 2:1-12. Where does it mention anything about UFO's in scripture.
It takes more than just one verse to prove what exactly is written in the scriptures. I have seen your website and can not agree with much you have written there.
All this you speak of is adding to scripture as only being speculation without factual poof no matter how you make scripture line up with what you say. When one understands who mystery Babylon is and the history of the four Empires then one will understand who it is that has had all the Prophets, Apostles and even Christ silenced by death, but yet CSatan has already lost that battle as God raised up a nation unto Himself through every generation up to the last one when Christ returns as the word of God can not be silenced.
Come on, even scholars can not agree with each other as we can see in many, not all, commentaries. I have no need to pick apart all the hundreds of different Bible translations as if there is any error the Holy Spirit will point it out, not man and his man made traditional doctrines. Even if we did not have the written word the Holy Spirit would teach us all we need to know of what Jesus taught.
I never said I rejected Divine Providence as there is nothing in this world that God does not know about and everything under heaven happens for a reason as God is working out all things according to the counsel of His perfectly good will, Ephesians 1:1-14.
Yes, I know Satan works through others. The Beast represents the last world Empire Daniel saw, that Christ will destroy. The "little horn" Big Mouth is its Emperor:
7 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
8 "I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.
9 "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;
(Dan. 7:7-9 NKJ)
I thought you said the beasts are the same in Rev. 12 and 13. I apologize if I misunderstood you.
Britian and America are unique in that they affected Israel's rebirth. Britian's mandate over Palestine was only a "short while", then America stepped in:
9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
10 "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.
11 "And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. (Rev. 17:9-11 NKJ)
Britain once had an empire the sun never set on. Its was the most powerful and far reaching in History, and if it weren't for Britian's initial support for Zionism, there wouldn't be an Israel today. So how could Britain not be the empire after Rome?
In Daniel a two horned ram represents a dual power empire, it follows it does the same in Revelation. The special relationship Britian and America have is a matter of history. Its not farfetched they combine under a "False Prophet" leader, who supports the Antichrist Beast. Brexit is consistent with that unfolding of history.
In the end time the Beast Government rises, it is “one of the seven” but so different, it is “an eighth.” This revival of the Grecian Roman Empire is therefore also a revival of ancient Babylon, with its Tower of Babylon in rebellion against God Gen. 11:1-9).
All in opposition to God.
You are right I can't prove everything by scripture NOW, but Daniel revealed these things will be clearly known when historical events unseal the prophetic word:
9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. (Dan. 12:9 NKJ)
I don't expect anyone today believe my interpretation of these prophecies is correct. I trust events will reveal them correct. And when that happens, people will know the Bible is 100% reliable Word of God, because I didn't get my interpretations from any spiritual experiences, I am NOT a prophet. I got it by studying God's Word, and applying it to current events.
I am hoping those suffering the Great Tribulation, upon seeing all the prophecies come true, will trust lean and rely on God's Holy Word, and not that of the false prophets.
21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
23 "Then if anyone says to you,`Look, here is the Christ!' or`There!' do not believe it.
24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 "See, I have told you beforehand.
26 "Therefore if they say to you,`Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or`Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. (Matt. 24:21-27 NKJ)
There is one thing you must admit, unlike all the prophecies about the future, mine are very detailed and it won't be hard to see if they are correct or not. Nothing obscure about saying the Beast's name is Adonikam etc:
End Time Timeline of Events in the Last Days | End Time News
When the First Seal is opened (Rev. 6:2) the First Half of End-Time "Week" of 7 Years (= 84 months; 2,520 days) begins: A disclaimer: I am a Cessationist, a believer in the sufficiency of Scripture (sola scriptura). Not one word of this is "thus saith the Lord prophecy". I pray its correct so...
endtimenews.net
None of the "modern prophets" are willing to risk being found wrong, their prophecies are all vague etc. I go into great detail.
But I did so to glorify God's Word the Bible, not me. I am just a bible student, anyone can do what I did. Be diligent, study and study some more, it will occur to you for scripture is perspicacious:
The Westminster Confession of Faith explains what Protestants believe about the perspicuity of Scripture: “All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all. Yet, those things that are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or another, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them” (1.7).
If I got it wrong, so what? God will send another Bible Student who will get it right. And remember, you didn't pay to see anything on my site. It was all free.
Last edited:
Hi Alfred Persson
So yes, God does have a plan and it is clearly explained in the Scriptures what that plan is. Yes, I agree with you that the Holy Spirit oversees the work of many translations of the Scriptures. Not just one that happened to pop up in the 16th century. God is always at work in this realm and providing reliable translations of His word from generation to generation is the job of His Spirit here upon the earth living in those who have been born of His Spirit and doing the good works that were prepared for them to do before the foundations of the world were laid.
So you can posture and postulate all you care to about your understanding of the written word and how it came to be as we hold it in our hands today, but of all those complaints that you have, not a one of them makes a difference to that plan that God explains to us in His Scriptures. Not a one of the reliable translations fails in the work that God has sent it forth to accomplish.
God bless,
Ted
Just to be clear, I know that God has a plan!!! I also know that things happen all the time on this planet without His direction. He certainly 'allows' these things to happen, but he doesn't direct people like Timothy McVeigh to drive a U-Haul full of ammonium nitrate and blow up an office building that kills hundreds of people. No, I'm sorry, but my God didn't direct that. That was the work of an evil man with the same evil, wicked heart that the rest of us have.
So yes, God does have a plan and it is clearly explained in the Scriptures what that plan is. Yes, I agree with you that the Holy Spirit oversees the work of many translations of the Scriptures. Not just one that happened to pop up in the 16th century. God is always at work in this realm and providing reliable translations of His word from generation to generation is the job of His Spirit here upon the earth living in those who have been born of His Spirit and doing the good works that were prepared for them to do before the foundations of the world were laid.
So you can posture and postulate all you care to about your understanding of the written word and how it came to be as we hold it in our hands today, but of all those complaints that you have, not a one of them makes a difference to that plan that God explains to us in His Scriptures. Not a one of the reliable translations fails in the work that God has sent it forth to accomplish.
God bless,
Ted
Below is that of the seven remaining nations described as four beasts in Daniel 7:1-8 and the three kingdoms that were subdued by the little horn, which is the Roman Empire.
The three kingdoms that were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:24 are the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths who were eliminated by the year 538 AD under the leadership of the Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian whose deadly wound came in 1798.
Seven remaining nations that still exist today:
Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon. This Empire ran from 2000BC - 1759BC
Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire.
Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.
Roman Empire: (little horn, Daniel 8:9-14, 23-27)
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.
This Empire ran from 753BC -27BC
The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and Roman Empire. The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:23-25; Rev 13:3. The deadly wound came in 1798 when General Berthier of France, who made his entrance into Rome, abolished the Roman government and established a secular one and captured Pope Pius VI, who soon died in captivity in Valence, on August 29, 1799. In 1801 Napoleon made an agreement with Pope Pius II establishing Napoleon’s Organic Articles of granting the Tribunal and the Corps legislative partial control of the concordat in order to help the state monitor any politically harmful Catholic or Protestant movements or activities. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to Pope Pius XI and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty.
The Roman Empire began in 753BC by Romulus who founded Rome in 27BC with Augustus Caesar becoming the first emperor of Rome in 27 BC and died in 14AD. Rome controlled over two million square miles stretching from the Rhine River to Egypt and from Britain (England) to Asia Minor which made up the Grecian Empire of Greece, Turkey, Syria and Egypt. In 146BC the Romans destroyed Corinth during the Battle of Corinth and made the Greece Empire into a province of the Roman Empire. This timeline goes from 753BC to 27BC. Nero burned Rome in 64AD and blamed the Christian community in the city causing the Roman Empires first persecution of Christians. In 1453 was the rise of the Ottoman Empire that conquered Constantinople destroying the Byzantine Empire (Eastern Roman Empire) that reigned from 330AD to 1453AD. The Roman Empire was divided into an eastern half and a western half in 285 CE by Emperor Diocletian. It was the Emperor Constantine in 330CE who moved the capital of the Roman Empire to Byzantium (Constantinople) in the Eastern Empire. The Roman Empire was then called the Holy Roman Empire that was a political entity beginning in 800AD - 1806AD from the time of Charlemagne (Holy Roman Emperor) who protected Pope Leo III from Adrian's supporters in Rome to Francis II, King of France. Pope Pius VII was the Pope from 1800-1823. The Roman Empire is known today as Vatican City, a city-state surrounded by Rome in Italy who has diplomatic relations with every nation around the world.
The crowns on its heads show that this dragon claims royal authority against the true King who is God of all creation as he prepares to take his seat above all that which is Gods Kingdom claiming he is God as he prepares to deceive the world through that of an existing Roman Empire, Daniel 8:9-12; Isaiah 14:12-15.
The beast rises up out of the sea, Rev 13, as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and Roman Empire. The ten horns/nations represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:15-28.
These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (Germans in Great Britain), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa. The last three being Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals had already been destroyed by the Roman Empire before their deadly wound came in 1798.
The beast out of the earth, Rev 13:11-18, is the revived Roman Empire (mystery Babylon, Rev 17:5) which causes man to take its mark. Daniel 7:25 and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, He will think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-12.
The ten horns are ten kings who have not yet received their kingdoms as the Vatican's New World Order Headquarters and the United Nations Organization, One Security Council that claims authority over the world are waiting for ten permanent members. In 2009 the UNO divided the world into ten economic regions and each one will have a Jesuit Provincial set over them, but their end will come with the glory of the Lord striking them down when He returns with us His army. (Will study more about the army in Rev 19)
Ten Kingdoms of a One World Government:
Kingdom 1: Canada, Mexico and the United States of America
Kingdom 2: European Union – Western Europe
Kingdom 3: Japan
Kingdom 4: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Israel and Pacific Islands
Kingdom 5: Eastern Europe
Kingdom 6: Latin America, Central and South America
Kingdom 7: North Africa and the Middle East
Kingdom 8: Central Africa
Kingdom 9: South and Southeast Asia
Kingdom 10: Central Asia
The three kingdoms that were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:24 are the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths who were eliminated by the year 538 AD under the leadership of the Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian whose deadly wound came in 1798.
Seven remaining nations that still exist today:
Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon. This Empire ran from 2000BC - 1759BC
Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire.
Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.
Roman Empire: (little horn, Daniel 8:9-14, 23-27)
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.
This Empire ran from 753BC -27BC
The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and Roman Empire. The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:23-25; Rev 13:3. The deadly wound came in 1798 when General Berthier of France, who made his entrance into Rome, abolished the Roman government and established a secular one and captured Pope Pius VI, who soon died in captivity in Valence, on August 29, 1799. In 1801 Napoleon made an agreement with Pope Pius II establishing Napoleon’s Organic Articles of granting the Tribunal and the Corps legislative partial control of the concordat in order to help the state monitor any politically harmful Catholic or Protestant movements or activities. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to Pope Pius XI and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty.
The Roman Empire began in 753BC by Romulus who founded Rome in 27BC with Augustus Caesar becoming the first emperor of Rome in 27 BC and died in 14AD. Rome controlled over two million square miles stretching from the Rhine River to Egypt and from Britain (England) to Asia Minor which made up the Grecian Empire of Greece, Turkey, Syria and Egypt. In 146BC the Romans destroyed Corinth during the Battle of Corinth and made the Greece Empire into a province of the Roman Empire. This timeline goes from 753BC to 27BC. Nero burned Rome in 64AD and blamed the Christian community in the city causing the Roman Empires first persecution of Christians. In 1453 was the rise of the Ottoman Empire that conquered Constantinople destroying the Byzantine Empire (Eastern Roman Empire) that reigned from 330AD to 1453AD. The Roman Empire was divided into an eastern half and a western half in 285 CE by Emperor Diocletian. It was the Emperor Constantine in 330CE who moved the capital of the Roman Empire to Byzantium (Constantinople) in the Eastern Empire. The Roman Empire was then called the Holy Roman Empire that was a political entity beginning in 800AD - 1806AD from the time of Charlemagne (Holy Roman Emperor) who protected Pope Leo III from Adrian's supporters in Rome to Francis II, King of France. Pope Pius VII was the Pope from 1800-1823. The Roman Empire is known today as Vatican City, a city-state surrounded by Rome in Italy who has diplomatic relations with every nation around the world.
The crowns on its heads show that this dragon claims royal authority against the true King who is God of all creation as he prepares to take his seat above all that which is Gods Kingdom claiming he is God as he prepares to deceive the world through that of an existing Roman Empire, Daniel 8:9-12; Isaiah 14:12-15.
The beast rises up out of the sea, Rev 13, as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and Roman Empire. The ten horns/nations represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:15-28.
These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (Germans in Great Britain), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa. The last three being Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals had already been destroyed by the Roman Empire before their deadly wound came in 1798.
The beast out of the earth, Rev 13:11-18, is the revived Roman Empire (mystery Babylon, Rev 17:5) which causes man to take its mark. Daniel 7:25 and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, He will think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-12.
The ten horns are ten kings who have not yet received their kingdoms as the Vatican's New World Order Headquarters and the United Nations Organization, One Security Council that claims authority over the world are waiting for ten permanent members. In 2009 the UNO divided the world into ten economic regions and each one will have a Jesuit Provincial set over them, but their end will come with the glory of the Lord striking them down when He returns with us His army. (Will study more about the army in Rev 19)
Ten Kingdoms of a One World Government:
Kingdom 1: Canada, Mexico and the United States of America
Kingdom 2: European Union – Western Europe
Kingdom 3: Japan
Kingdom 4: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Israel and Pacific Islands
Kingdom 5: Eastern Europe
Kingdom 6: Latin America, Central and South America
Kingdom 7: North Africa and the Middle East
Kingdom 8: Central Africa
Kingdom 9: South and Southeast Asia
Kingdom 10: Central Asia
I concur, God is never the author of evil, nor does He cause it, nor does He tempt others with it.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
(Jas. 1:13-17 NKJ)
The pastor in the video expressed my reasons for preferring the Majority Text expertly, no need to repeat that now.
We should agree to disagree, agreeably.
peace
al
Obviously you have looked into this thoroughly. I know we will never come to an agreement on any of it. Time will tell who is right. In any event, we look for the same LORD Jesus Christ to appear. Maranatha.
Those who cast doubt upon scripture do a disservice to Christ, for it is by Scripture God corrects us. God wrote the scripture so we would be completely equipped for every good work:
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)
Especially the good work of walking in the Holy Spirit. It is by the Word of God He communicates to our spirit, what is good and acceptable God:
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (Heb. 4:12-13 NKJ)
It is beyond any reasonable doubt, not one "jot or tittle" will pass from the Word of God, not the smallest meaning of it, until all is fulfilled, precisely as our LORD Jesus, God the Eternal Son has said:
18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:18-20 NKJ)
The problem that emerges is that different believers will cite these very same verses to "justify" their particular version of the (protestant) Bible that they use or even to "justify" (non-protestant) versions of the Bible. But these verses do not specify which Bible they are referring to and in fact are not referring to the whole Bible but to the Old Testament and the Torah (Law). We need to be careful not to substitute the word "Bible" everywhere we see the phrase "word of God" in the Bible because that is anachronistic, and causes misinterpretation of the verses. For example, most uses of "word of God" in the New Testament refer to the good news gospel message that was preached; not the completed Bible, which didn't yet exist.
I don't understand your point. The Majority Text should be used in all New Testament translations, regardless of denomination or affiliation. Conservative Christians like myself view the New Testament as "Scripture, the very word of God" just as Peter viewed Paul's writings:
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2 Pet. 3:15-16 NKJ)
Although Eastern Orthodox view the Greek Septuagint as the best version of the Torah, taking my cue from Paul I prefer the Hebrew Masoretic, but as the LXX was written by "Seventy Jewish Scholars" perhaps this isn't as weighty as first appears:
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?
4 Certainly not! (Rom. 3:1-4 NKJ)
Both versions are cited verbatim in the NT so perhaps both should be used. However, the Hebrew OT canonical list should be preferred over the apocryphal books.
Last edited:
There are many Christians who would disagree that the Majority Text should be used in all translations. Plus, the Majority Text is not a text per se, but a (Byzantine) text-type; based on a family of manuscripts that exhibit common characteristics. But there are thousands of variations between these manuscripts that collectively make up that "Majority Text." (i.e., there is no single fixed "Majority Text" that has been transmitted without error, variations). The "Majority Text" published today is a statistical construct based on thousands of manuscripts (no two of which are perfectly identical) that still required scholars to make decisions about which manuscript variant to use.
2 Peter was one of books whose canonicity was disputed in the early church. And there are good reasons to believe that it was not written by Peter but written late first century to early second century (*when Paul's epistles were starting to gain acceptance on a level with scripture). There are of course others who disagree.
My wider point is that too often Bible proof texts are used to try to confirm the Bible, or doctrines of the Bible (like sufficiency of Scripture) but those verses don't actually refer to the Bible (at least not the Bible we have today and that people try to affirm with said verses). Those doctrines must be supported in other ways external to the Bible itself. (In short, the Bible didn't exist--nor the New Testament as a single collection--at the time of its writing, so references to scripture (sans disputed book of 2 Peter) refer to the Old Testament and most references to "the word," "the word of God," etc. in the New Testament refer specifically to the Gospel that was proclaimed (the apostolic kerygma).
2 Peter was one of books whose canonicity was disputed in the early church. And there are good reasons to believe that it was not written by Peter but written late first century to early second century (*when Paul's epistles were starting to gain acceptance on a level with scripture). There are of course others who disagree.
My wider point is that too often Bible proof texts are used to try to confirm the Bible, or doctrines of the Bible (like sufficiency of Scripture) but those verses don't actually refer to the Bible (at least not the Bible we have today and that people try to affirm with said verses). Those doctrines must be supported in other ways external to the Bible itself. (In short, the Bible didn't exist--nor the New Testament as a single collection--at the time of its writing, so references to scripture (sans disputed book of 2 Peter) refer to the Old Testament and most references to "the word," "the word of God," etc. in the New Testament refer specifically to the Gospel that was proclaimed (the apostolic kerygma).
Last edited:
You could call that a "secular view". It might seem "scientific", but its "faithless." I have faith God preserved His Word:
And I am guilty of applying Christ's words about the Torah to all of Scripture, including the yet to be written NT, because I can extrapolate and apply God's clear intent and will to the whole Bible:
18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:18 NKJ)
The transmission process may appear "accidental" but I have faith in God's providence it worked out exactly as He desired.
Its still up to us to choose to have faith, or not. That also fits the whole revelation of God.
Your characterization of the Majority Text is inaccurate, apart from minor differences like spelling and word order, agreement is above 99% and the "best reading" can be chosen objectively.
That isn't true of the eclectic versions today, based on a handful of mss that disagree more with each other than they do the Majority Text..
Suppose I am wrong about this, and appear before God in Judgment and confess "I believed your Word, its precise wording and so did what I did."
Do you really think God would condemn that?
But suppose you are wrong, and lack of faith in God led to breaking a Bible Teaching:
18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:18-20 NKJ)
The scribes and Pharisees laid aside God's Word, holding the tradition of men. Its similar if one laid aside God's Word, because of critical theories of men:
6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:`This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men-- the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."
9 He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. (Mk. 7:6-9 NKJ)
My position is by far the wiser belief to hold.
Last edited:
I believe in God's Providence, too. No one's laying aside Scripture, only "rightly dividing it" (a verse which, by the way, is referring to the gospel message of Christ's death and resurrection, not the completed Bible). It is not enough to believe the Bible. We must also interpret it correctly.
True, the manuscripts comprising the Majority Text (Byzantine text type) are 99% in agreement. It's also true that the Alexandrian text type is 98% in agreement with the Byzantine text type. It's also true that the Alexandrian text type is older and quoted almost exclusively by the early church fathers. It's also true that the same Byzantine variant mistake getting recopied more times does not make it a more reliable witness.
Another important truth that you are forgetting is that the Majority Text does not necessarily reflect most manuscripts, but only most manuscripts still available to us today. We cannot say with confidence that the Majority Text truly reflects most manuscripts, because *most manuscripts* no longer exist. We know for a fact that different geographical regions (combined with the type of "paper" used) effects preservation, and almost all the Byzantine text type manuscripts come from the same geographical region and were preserved better as a result of the climate in that area and type of "paper" used. That alone shows the Majority Text is not representative of all, because the manuscripts are confined to a narrow geographical region. You might counter that that differential preservation simply reflects God's Providence too. But that would limit God's Providence to only us today, while the rest of Christians in the past 1,800 or so years are out of luck and are the sorry lots who did not have the advantage of all the accumulated manuscript knowledge that we have today, but were stuck with the manuscript they had no matter how riddled with errors.
But the good news (as I'm sure you are well aware) is that none of those variants in either the Byzantine or Alexandrian have obscured the gospel message of Christ's atoning death and resurrection. Now *that* is God's Providence.
Remember, the doctrine of inerrancy states that only the original autographs (which no one has) are inerrant. No one today has an error free Bible in their hands, but praise God that we all have an error-free gospel message (= "the word of God," according to the New Testament)!
The Bible is called the Word of God today by extension for that very reason, and I call it that too, but we must still remember that "word of God" in the Bible does not refer to the Bible. This is not academic, but has important ramifications for our theology and practice. For example, you wrote:
"Suppose I am wrong about this, and appear before God in Judgment and confess "I believed your Word, its precise wording and so did what I did."
Do you really think God would condemn that?"
My answer: No, I don't think God would condemn you for that (or for *not* so believing), because that is not what the Bible says we're going to be judged on the basis of.
True, the manuscripts comprising the Majority Text (Byzantine text type) are 99% in agreement. It's also true that the Alexandrian text type is 98% in agreement with the Byzantine text type. It's also true that the Alexandrian text type is older and quoted almost exclusively by the early church fathers. It's also true that the same Byzantine variant mistake getting recopied more times does not make it a more reliable witness.
Another important truth that you are forgetting is that the Majority Text does not necessarily reflect most manuscripts, but only most manuscripts still available to us today. We cannot say with confidence that the Majority Text truly reflects most manuscripts, because *most manuscripts* no longer exist. We know for a fact that different geographical regions (combined with the type of "paper" used) effects preservation, and almost all the Byzantine text type manuscripts come from the same geographical region and were preserved better as a result of the climate in that area and type of "paper" used. That alone shows the Majority Text is not representative of all, because the manuscripts are confined to a narrow geographical region. You might counter that that differential preservation simply reflects God's Providence too. But that would limit God's Providence to only us today, while the rest of Christians in the past 1,800 or so years are out of luck and are the sorry lots who did not have the advantage of all the accumulated manuscript knowledge that we have today, but were stuck with the manuscript they had no matter how riddled with errors.
But the good news (as I'm sure you are well aware) is that none of those variants in either the Byzantine or Alexandrian have obscured the gospel message of Christ's atoning death and resurrection. Now *that* is God's Providence.
Remember, the doctrine of inerrancy states that only the original autographs (which no one has) are inerrant. No one today has an error free Bible in their hands, but praise God that we all have an error-free gospel message (= "the word of God," according to the New Testament)!
The Bible is called the Word of God today by extension for that very reason, and I call it that too, but we must still remember that "word of God" in the Bible does not refer to the Bible. This is not academic, but has important ramifications for our theology and practice. For example, you wrote:
"Suppose I am wrong about this, and appear before God in Judgment and confess "I believed your Word, its precise wording and so did what I did."
Do you really think God would condemn that?"
My answer: No, I don't think God would condemn you for that (or for *not* so believing), because that is not what the Bible says we're going to be judged on the basis of.
Last edited: