The Mangling of Ephesians 2:8-9

[Drew]

Wow I think eternal life too! We’re so close to agreeing!

The question is: do we both agree with Paul. I do, you do not, as will be shown below:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

....So now onto verse 13. In 8:1 Paul already assures that for those who are in Christ Jesus, there is NO condemnation.

You are not following Paul's argument carefully enough. In verse 1, he does indeed "there is no condemation" but then he goes on to explain why. I politely suggest that have imported a reason for the "why" - the belief that escape from condemnation is based on imputed righteousness. But this is decidedly not Paul goes on to say: Yes, there is no condemnation, but the reason for this is, yes, the Spirit enables the believer to do good works and live. How you and others do not see this a profound mystery. Please note the because:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit

I suspect that you will say that who live according to the Spirit do so "after" we are "saved". Well, that cannot be reconciled with verse 13. Verse 13 quite clearly states that if, repeat if, one lives according to the Spirit, God will, yes will (note future tense) give you life. The statement means what it means. Besides. note verse 2: what is the "because" for "no condemnation"? Is it "imputed righteousness?

No. No. No.

It is what Paul says it is: "law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death". Paul is saying that there is no condemnation for the believer since the believer has been enabled to live the kind of life that will result in good works that will acquit us on the last day. Note how this concept of being set free (verse 2) works perfectly with the promise of verse 13: you have been set free (v2), now, if, if, if - LaCrum the "if" is there! - you allow the law of the Spirit to work in your life you will, will, will - this a future tense! - get what? Life.

The bottom line is this: As an english statement, verse 13 is clear and unambiguous: if we walk in the Spirit, we get life. Period. I am not sure why you and others think that you can bend the statement into something other than its clear meaning.

Can you justify your doing this?

In any other context, where deeply held pre-conceptions are not at play, the following statement would be taken to mean what it clearly means: If, repeat, if you live a certain way, you get life:

13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

But you and others seem to think that the meaning of this statement can be bent into an observation that those who already have life manifest a certain way of living. This is simply not what the sentence says. What right do you have to take the "if" out of this sentence? It is there. Please deal with it.

 

[Drew]

So now onto verse 13. In 8:1 Paul already assures that for those who are in Christ Jesus, there is NO condemnation. He rather is saying that a person whose life is characterized by the things of the flesh is spiritually dead, and therefore not a genuine believer.

I cannot imagine how you can possibly say this.

Verse 13 is clearly directed at the believer. I have been through this with gd alreadt, but I will now challenge you on this:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Where are the references to nonbelievers?

I see a reference to those with Christ in them (verse 10). Do you see any reference to unbelievers?

I see a reference to those who spirit is alive because of righteousness (verse 10). Do you see any reference to unbelievers?

I see a reference to those in whom the Sprit is living (verse 11). Do you see any reference to unbelievers?

I see a reference to those whose mortal bodies are given life (verse 11). Do you see any reference to unbelievers?

I see a reference to brothers (obviously believers to whom Paul is writing) (verse 12). Do you see any reference to unbelievers?

Five, count 'em, five distinct, clear references to the believer. Where, LaCrum, where is the reference to the non-believer?

Please. Enough with the abuse of the english language. The "you" in verse 13 must, by linguistic convention, be the same "you" he has already been talking to, namely believers.

To conclude that he is talking about non-believers in verse 13 is like taking this text:

"Drew, you are 51 years old, Drew, you have curly hair, Drew you live in Ottawa, Drew you have a pet chihuahua - and now for "verse 13" - if you live according to the Spirit, you will live.

....and claiming that the "you" is not Drew!!!!

Now please - the "you" on the table in verses 10 to 13 is precisely who Paul says it is - the person who has the Spirit - namely the believer.

 

[Drew]

And that’s really cute of you to leave out the verses that follow verse 13 because it’s quite apparent this section is about the work of the Spirit within the believer, not justification by works. It’s set up in a way that verses 10-14 speak of the outward showing of the Spirit in our lives, while 14-17 speaks of the inward showing of it:

Romans 8:14-17

14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

What's "cute" is how you think this material in any way challenges the clear meaning of verse 13 - that it is specifically those who walk in the Spriit who get life.

Paul is saying that we receive the Spirit. Well, no kidding. This is what I have been saying all along. And Paul tells us that those who walk in its ways will get life.

You simply assume that because this text is talking about the work of the Spirit in the believer, that it is somehow impossible that this very work of the Spirit is what gives life - which is what Paul says in verse 13.

Your argument is circular - you believe (against Paul) that it is something other than the work of the Spirit that gives life, so you conclude that any talk of the work of the Spirit cannot be related to attaning life.

 

[Drew]

Enough with this clear abuse of the English language. Here is the relevant block of text:

10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

In verse 10, Paul identifies a specific person - the person who has Christ in them. Now, I cannot emphasize this enough - it is this same "you" that is on the table for the rest of Paul's discussion here. To suggest otherwise, as some here are doing, is to commit a crime of grammar.

Who is the person in view in verse 11? Clearly it is the same person as in view in verse 10, except that in verse 10, the person with Christ in them is characterized as having the Spirit. Who is the "brother" in verse 12. Cleary, it must, repeat must be this same person - the "therefore" makes it undeniably clear that the "brother" is the same person as in verses 10 and 11. And, of course, the same "you" is on the table in verse 13.

How can you argue with those who simply do not obey the rules of grammar? It is fine and acceptable to consider context. But context does not give you the right to break the rules of language.

 

[Adullam]

There is an amazing heresy afoot that claims that obedience is irrelevent for salvation. I never thought I'd live to see this.

It was Christ's obedience that saves us...we will be rewarded according to our obedience, and not with a loss of eternal life. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Don't you ever read anything but the verses that can be twisted to lay charges against the elect of God?

It's heresy to even suggest that God is unable to keep us. It's a total lack of faith in the Lord.

The "heresy" is claiming that we save ourselves by our obedience.
If that were true, there would have been absolutely no reason for Jesus to have died on the cross.

The heresy is claiming God is unable to keep those He has given to the Son.

The heresy is claiming our disobedience will annul the eternal life we've been given when we're born of God. The Lord is faithful to chasten those who are His. We are not our own any longer. Man is ever seeking the glory for his own salvation. That's the shame I'm seeing.

You cannot replace obedience by grace. The grace of God ENABLES us to be obedient. We are saved for His sake, in order to run for Him. We can fail the grace of God. We can bury our talent. We can draw back unto perdition.

Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

A covenant is between 2 parties. Both must be faithful or the covenant is void. You misread Christ's being our righteousness for meaning that we can remain unrighteous. Rather, WE are to opperate in Christ's power which is according to divine righteousness. Someone who does this IS obedient....or else he could not be surrendered to the power of God.

It's all about faith and faithful obedience. If Abraham had NOT sacrificed Isaac (in willingnesss)...if he had protected his only son from God....would God have offered His own Son? Abraham was righteous because he obeyed God.

Why wasn't the grace (as you mistankenly see grace) able to save Judas Iscariot? He was a disciple after all!

Do we get a bonus for doing the work? If you hired a lazy worker who expected his pay for doing nothing and expected a bonus for doing what he was supposed to do in the first place....would this please you? This is what you are advocating.

This doctrinal twisting has to do with the flesh looking for comfort. There is a war on, and a race to run. Flabby runners will be disqualified.

Try to understand God's position...forget your comfort for the sake of Christ.

35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.


The Greek word for believe means faithfulness as much as it means faith. Many Western Christians will die for this lack of understanding.

 

[Adullam]

So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’â€

Doing what we are commanded? Sounds like obedience! Sounds like obedience is our duty. Will we get bonus points for doing what we are commanded to do? No!

“If you love me you will keep my commandments,â€

Notice here that grace goes unmentioned. WE will be judged by our obedience. IF we love Jesus, we will not seek our own comfort. We will obey. There are no promises of God for the disobedient.

Modern believers will be asked how they thought to promote righteousness through their own unrighteousness. Hypocrisy?

 

[Mysteryman]

So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’â€

Doing what we are commanded? Sounds like obedience! Sounds like obedience is our duty. Will we get bonus points for doing what we are commanded to do? No!

“If you love me you will keep my commandments,â€

Notice here that grace goes unmentioned. WE will be judged by our obedience. IF we love Jesus, we will not seek our own comfort. We will obey. There are no promises of God for the disobedient.

Modern believers will be asked how they thought to promote righteousness through their own unrighteousness. Hypocrisy?

Well Adullam, don't slip on that bannana peeling then ! :D We wouldn't want you to miss the boat. :rolling

 

[glorydaz]

You cannot replace obedience by grace. The grace of God ENABLES
us to be obedient. We are saved for His sake, in order to run for Him. We can fail the grace of God. We can bury our talent. We can draw back unto perdition.

Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Grace does enable us to be obedient...We are saved for His sake in order to run for Him.

Where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. We can't out-sin the grace of God.

The man who buried his talent took his grace and measure of faith and buried it. He was cast into outer darkness....not a saved man. Luke makes that clear.

A covenant is between 2 parties. Both must be faithful or the covenant is void. You misread Christ's being our righteousness for meaning that we can remain unrighteous. Rather, WE are to opperate in Christ's power which is according to divine righteousness. Someone who does this IS obedient....or else he could not be surrendered to the power of God.

It's a Covenant of Grace...God gives grace and we believe in Jesus.

All men are commanded to repent and believe. When we do that, we become sons, kings and priests, seated with Christ in heavenly places, given eternal life, and are awaiting the redemption of our bodies when our Lord returns in Glory.

I most certainly do not say we "can remain unrighteous" because we have the righteousness of Christ accounted to us. I say we have been changed...we are new creatures with new hearts and our desire is to follow the voice of our Lord. When we believe, God has ORDAINED that we will show forth good deeds as the fruit of the Spirit is manifest in us.

It's all about faith and faithful obedience. If Abraham had NOT sacrificed Isaac (in willingnesss)...if he had protected his only son from God....would God have offered His own Son? Abraham was righteous because he obeyed God.

God's sacrificing His own Son was not contingent on Abraham offering up his son. Abraham was justified because he believed God. He was counted as righteous when he believed. Did he walk in righteousness after that? He lied about Sarah being his wife, he took on a bond woman and struggled as all men do in ways that are not even recorded in the Bible.

He did offer up Isaac in obedience to God...just as all believers obey God because we believe. Would you have been able to lift the knife? Do you think Abraham's salvation was based upon whether he did or not? Abraham obeyed when he believed God...that's when he was justified before God.

Why wasn't the grace (as you mistankenly see grace) able to save Judas Iscariot? He was a disciple after all!

Why would you say I have a mistaken view of grace?
Perhaps you should give yourself an attitude check.

The grace of God is shed abroad on all men. Do they all partake? Of course not.
Judas was chosen as a "disciple" so he could betray the Lord. Jesus was sent to die.
That example really has nothing to do with this discussion.

Do we get a bonus for doing the work? If you hired a lazy worker who expected his pay for doing nothing and expected a bonus for doing what he was supposed to do in the first place....would this please you? This is what you are advocating.

This doctrinal twisting has to do with the flesh looking for comfort. There is a war on, and a race to run. Flabby runners will be disqualified.

You're reacting in the flesh here. We haven't been "hired". We have been bought and paid for.
We enter the "race" when we're born of God. It isn't my place, or yours, to point at the other runners and claim they aren't going to make it. The Holy Spirit takes each of us through the course, and all who have begun the race will reach the finish line. Would you point at a cripple and laugh or scorn him because he doesn't have two good legs? Be careful of that or you may lose one of yours on the way, because God hates a proudful look. You have no idea of what the Holy Spirit is doing in their life.

Try to understand God's position...forget your comfort for the sake of Christ.

35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Those who "shrink back", as you can see from the text, are not those "who believe and are saved."

Again, I would remind you, when you say, "Forget your comfort", you are accusing me falsely.
I take no comfort when a believer is not living a victorious life. I know God is faithful to chasten His sons, and I hate to see anyone brought low by God in order to get them to listen to His voice. The fact is, He is faithful to do just that. I always encourage my brothers and sisters in the Lord to obey His voice lest scourgings come upon them.

The Greek word for believe means faithfulness as much as it means faith. Many Western Christians will die for this lack of understanding.

All true believers have entered into eternal life. Many "professing" Christians need to strive to enter into the rest...they are mistaken if they think they can obey or work their way into heaven. We are to believe in Christ's work of obedience and then be raised into newness of life with Him.

 

[stranger]

There is an amazing heresy afoot that claims that obedience is irrelevent for salvation. I never thought I'd live to see this.

It was Christ's obedience that saves us...we will be rewarded according to our obedience, and not with a loss of eternal life. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Don't you ever read anything but the verses that can be twisted to lay charges against the elect of God?

It's heresy to even suggest that God is unable to keep us. It's a total lack of faith in the Lord.

The "heresy" is claiming that we save ourselves by our obedience.
If that were true, there would have been absolutely no reason for Jesus to have died on the cross.

The heresy is claiming God is unable to keep those He has given to the Son.

The heresy is claiming our disobedience will annul the eternal life we've been given when we're born of God. The Lord is faithful to chasten those who are His. We are not our own any longer. Man is ever seeking the glory for his own salvation. That's the shame I'm seeing.

You cannot replace obedience by grace. The grace of God ENABLES us to be obedient. We are saved for His sake, in order to run for Him. We can fail the grace of God. We can bury our talent. We can draw back unto perdition.

Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

A covenant is between 2 parties. Both must be faithful or the covenant is void. You misread Christ's being our righteousness for meaning that we can remain unrighteous. Rather, WE are to opperate in Christ's power which is according to divine righteousness. Someone who does this IS obedient....or else he could not be surrendered to the power of God.

It's all about faith and faithful obedience. If Abraham had NOT sacrificed Isaac (in willingnesss)...if he had protected his only son from God....would God have offered His own Son? Abraham was righteous because he obeyed God.

Why wasn't the grace (as you mistankenly see grace) able to save Judas Iscariot? He was a disciple after all!

Do we get a bonus for doing the work? If you hired a lazy worker who expected his pay for doing nothing and expected a bonus for doing what he was supposed to do in the first place....would this please you? This is what you are advocating.

This doctrinal twisting has to do with the flesh looking for comfort. There is a war on, and a race to run. Flabby runners will be disqualified.

Try to understand God's position...forget your comfort for the sake of Christ.

35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.


The Greek word for believe means faithfulness as much as it means faith. Many Western Christians will die for this lack of understanding.

Hi Adullam,

Good summary, it covers most of the major issues in this debate.

Why wasn't the grace (as you mistankenly see grace) able to save Judas Iscariot? He was a disciple after all!

Acts 5:1-10 Ananias and Sapphira is another striking example.

Romans 11: 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Romans 11:21-23 is a small summary of God's kindness (mercy) and God's severity. It is clear that since God did not spare the OT Jews - he will not spare the Gentiles IF they don't continue in His kindness. Alternately, grace can be seen - 'if they do not continue in their unbelief' they will be grafted back in.

So would you agree that a Christians can continue or not continue in their unbelief and God responds accordingly?

 

[stranger]

Hi glorydaz,

This is my summary, if you so choose please post your own counter summary in response. There are still issues I need to take up with the other participants in this tread but we have come to proverbial fork in the road. Farewell, brother for this tread.

stranger's summary:

1. All believers are called to walk in the Spirit - this is the Christian norm.

2. Christians who walk in the flesh are not forgiven unless they confess and repent.

3. OSAS is refuted by Heb 6 and Rom 11.

4. In both the following passages from Romans Paul is addressing believers:

Rom 8: 11-14
esp 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

In Rom 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

5: Eph 2:8,9 is mangled by OSAS theology. Likewise, indiscriminately applying verses that refer to walking in the Spirit, to those walking in the flesh - is a false hermenuetic that renders obedience irrelevant to salvation. If the perception is that obedience is irrelevant to salvation it is heretical.

Thank you for the discussion.

 

[jasoncran]

stranger you have failed to address something if its possible to loose salvation then you cant get it back as you have sin willfully.

name one sin that anyone has done knowingly and hasnt repented.

no matter how small any sin and done knowingly cant be forgiven by that verse in hebrews six if you take it that way.

 

[francisdesales]

Please explain again to Adullam why you feel sanctification serves absolutely no purpose, since we are covered already with absolute perfection...

We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us for our justification before God. We now have access to God. We aren't perfect...His perfection is accounted to us. Is that really so difficult for you to understand?

You continue to refuse to answer the question. Cconsidering I have asked this for about 10 days, I'll have to presume there is no answer. Sanctification is meaningless to you, SINCE "Christ's perfection covers you". there is no reason to believe, no reason to have faith, no reason to have love or repentance.

Brother, you have no idea how your scheme destroys Christianity as it was conceived.

How difficult is that to understand? I know what it is, but if the "perfection is accounted to us", what more is left to do? ADD to perfection???



Really, it is sad - that you cannot admit this.

 

[francisdesales]

let me elaborate. as you know that i'm a believer that we are saved as much at the begining of our walk as the same at the end of our life on the earth.

And before our walk, since Christ's faith proceeds my birth and I am just born into eternal life without me doing anything, correct???

the trials we go through are to make us grow in love for the lord. for the perfection

For what purpose? If I am already "called" perfect by someone else's perfection, what more can I add to that? What more does God need to see, if God only looks at my imputed justice, which is not MINE to begin with???

Can you see the point I am making and why the alien righteousness idea is foreign to Scriptures and makes no sense to a great majority of exhortations found in the bible? .

Exhortations, FOR WHAT??? Jesus did it all!!!

You see where I am going with this? God WANTS us to become holy, not just PRETEND we are holy!!!

joe you are married, correct. when you first married the love is shallow, given time and trials and hurts and so on, you grow and that love deepens. santification isnt much different.

Indeed, but if our relationship with God is based upon credits and debits, and I am credited an infinite amount, no matter what I do on the debit side will NOT change the end result. Sanctification is really not something to bother with. Why avoid sin? It all magically bounced off my teflon coated soul...

There is no need to reconsider, since there is no infinite debits. The Grand Accountant in the heavens is "forced" to take me up to Him in heaven???

It is blasphemous, honestly...

we grow so that we can be spiritual giants and reach the lost even more, a babe in christ cant take on athiest on philosophical issues as he is too weak and on milk.However, a man that is mature(not necessarily an elder)in his faith can!

Jason, why bother becoming mature, when our relationship with God is all about credits and debits??? Once Christ covers our credit side, we can do WHATEVER we want!!!

 

[stranger]

stranger you have failed to address something if its possible to loose salvation then you cant get it back as you have sin willfully.

name one sin that anyone has done knowingly and hasnt repented.

no matter how small any sin and done knowingly cant be forgiven by that verse in hebrews six if you take it that way.

Hi jasoncran,

What I say about Heb 6 is that it refutes OSAS.

Heb 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The words 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, is all that is revealed here.

You also asked whether or not I had sinned wilfully. I said in walking in the flesh I had sinned willfully. So you have your answer.

Now to the Hebrews passage -- yes I entered His rest in 2001 for about 4 months and would say that the Heb 6:4,5 definitely applied to me. Then I walked in the Spirit - no question about that. What happened after that -- I lost His rest. I have thus far given you straight and truthful answers - do you want to go futher?

 

[jasoncran]

we all have sinned willfully after salvation. that is what i have done, i dated and had sex with a man. knowing full well that is was wrong.

therefore i must not be saved.

 

[jasoncran]

let me elaborate. as you know that i'm a believer that we are saved as much at the begining of our walk as the same at the end of our life on the earth.

And before our walk, since Christ's faith proceeds my birth and I am just born into eternal life without me doing anything, correct???
no, you accept him, can you out perform christ, btw that is odd coming from a catholic who preach and believe the purgatory, is that no added to the work of the cross

the trials we go through are to make us grow in love for the lord. for the perfection

For what purpose? If I am already "called" perfect by someone else's perfection, what more can I add to that? What more does God need to see, if God only looks at my imputed justice, which is not MINE to begin with???
evidence of salvation
Can you see the point I am making and why the alien righteousness idea is foreign to Scriptures and makes no sense to a great majority of exhortations found in the bible? .

Exhortations, FOR WHAT??? Jesus did it all!!!

You see where I am going with this? God WANTS us to become holy, not just PRETEND we are holy!!!
of course, we do it because we have been empowered by him to change.

joe you are married, correct. when you first married the love is shallow, given time and trials and hurts and so on, you grow and that love deepens. santification isnt much different.

Indeed, but if our relationship with God is based upon credits and debits, and I am credited an infinite amount, no matter what I do on the debit side will NOT change the end result. Sanctification is really not something to bother with. Why avoid sin? It all magically bounced off my teflon coated soul...
conquesenses, if you can pray them into heacven as your chruch believes why then the cross
There is no need to reconsider, since there is no infinite debits. The Grand Accountant in the heavens is "forced" to take me up to Him in heaven???

It is blasphemous, honestly...

we grow so that we can be spiritual giants and reach the lost even more, a babe in christ cant take on athiest on philosophical issues as he is too weak and on milk.However, a man that is mature(not necessarily an elder)in his faith can!

Jason, why bother becoming mature, when our relationship with God is all about credits and debits??? Once Christ covers our credit side, we can do WHATEVER we want!!!
no, its evidence of the change nature, we sin because we dont have the power to change.unless you think that you can save yourself.

 

[jasoncran]

i will word what glorydayz is saying in a better way

upon salvation we are a new creature.
francis do you believe this

therefore the old has been put away. are we perfected as in the flesh and its nature removed, no

we have the desire to want to change and ask the lord as he will change us.

if we continue in sin and dont care then we arent one of his.

if we fall,which we all do and rebel then doenst the lord chastise us and forgive us when we repent.

 

[francisdesales]

i will word what glorydayz is saying in a better way

upon salvation we are a new creature.
francis do you believe this

Jason, my posts speak clearly. I highlight, bolden, make huge letters, and it still is not getting through...

We are new creatures. born from above.

When God creates, is it not GOOD? So why the need to cover a good creation???

Again, why does God go through this, IF we are legally covered and God does not look at our lifestyles, etc., anymore? Our credits are infinitely positive. What is ironic is that those of the "alien righteousness" crowd do not ACTUALLY believe that God has the ability or power to CHANGE us. I believe He does change us, transform us - and we, from the bottom of our hearts, begin to repent, just as all the other righteous men in Scriptures.

therefore the old has been put away.

Not for GD or Dave. They consider themselves still filthy rags. NOTHING they do is seen of any value. God has done nothing to change GD and Dave, except pretend they are something they aren't...

This is what we call "legal fiction". GD and dave are declared righteous, but in reality, they are not. Frankly, it is a foolish thought.

I am sorry if I sound harsh, but I have been arguing this for weeks and I am tiring of obstinate persons who refuse to address key questions and go back and repeat stuff already refuted. It is not valuable conversation, it is just advertisements for people who don't know any better about the reality of the foolishness and anti-Scriptural ideas...

are we perfected as in the flesh and its nature removed, no

No, we are being perfected - and this is important to God. Thus, there IS NO alien righteousness. God looks at US!!! WE are judged, not Christ's righteousness. Were WE pure of heart? Were we meek and humble??? ThaT is what God will judge us upon. that criteria.

we have the desire to want to change and ask the lord as he will change us.

if we continue in sin and dont care then we arent one of his.

if we fall,which we all do and rebel then doenst the lord chastise us and forgive us when we repent.

So why then, the alien righteousness? You, and the rest, are trying to straddle both sides of the fence when it is convenient. It is utterly contradictory, back and forth.

Does God care if I sin - and why, if I am covered with a righteousness that is not mine and hides my sin, completely?

 

[stranger]

we all have sinned willfully after salvation. that is what i have done, i dated and had sex with a man. knowing full well that is was wrong.

therefore i must not be saved.

Hi jasoncran,

Do you attend a fellowship?

 

[glorydaz]

We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us for our justification before God. We now have access to God. We aren't perfect...His perfection is accounted to us. Is that really so difficult for you to understand?

You continue to refuse to answer the question. Cconsidering I have asked this for about 10 days, I'll have to presume there is no answer. Sanctification is meaningless to you, SINCE "Christ's perfection covers you". there is no reason to believe, no reason to have faith, no reason to have love or repentance.

Brother, you have no idea how your scheme destroys Christianity as it was conceived.

How difficult is that to understand? I know what it is, but if the "perfection is accounted to us", what more is left to do? ADD to perfection???



Really, it is sad - that you cannot admit this.

I have answered this, Joe. Had you not pooh-poohed my robe analogy, you'd have understood what I'm saying. We have Christ's righteous robe draped over our shoulders... getting us through the door. God sees Christ's righteousness and we have access to God. His righteousness has been accounted to us. We have been reconciled to God by the righteousness of Christ. Notice, these are garments of SALVATION. They aren't garments of sanctification. Sanctification is an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

We are now home, our citizenship is in heaven, so we may remove our robe and walk around in our filthy rags while the Holy Spirit goes about with those mundane chores of mortifying our flesh...renewing our mind, bringing our unruly "self" under subjection to the will of God.

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.