The Meaning Of Justified

[Elijah674]

So I have learned to automaticly associate the words RIGHTEOUS and JUSTIFIED with the word APPROVED. it just helps me make better since of the usage of either of those words, because God is the judge of that which is JUST and only he can deem anything to be RIGHTEOUS it is our duty to recognize the things that decrees and agree with our creator.

That I agree with. But it is not permanent. There is a Rom. 8:14 verse. Of one being 'Led!'

--Elijah

 

[lowrab777]

The fear of the lord is what allows us to submit our faulty judgments and miss takes to God for forgiveness sake
Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
Psa 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.
Psa 130:5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.
The more I live on the more I realize how much I dont really know about what is going on simply because there are invisable things, invisable forces and after all who can know the mind of God and his ways. We are all like little children to him we have no idea what is actually taking place behind that foggy glass we only dimly see silhouettes and shapes. It is humbling to sit in meditation and consider that with out Gods provisions and spiritual guidence there is absolutly no way that I could ever accomplish my obligation with my free will decisions, And it brings me deeper in love with my creator knowing that he does not hold me to debt for all my miss takes as long as I fear his absence and in fear his judgement and seek his { APPROVAL }

 

[lowrab777]

That I agree with. But it is not permanent. There is a Rom. 8:14 verse. Of one being 'Led!' --Elijah

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I agree with you also that some of our judgements could be granted to us by the holy spirit if thats what you mean.
But the fact remains that we are still human even though we may be compelled by the spirit of God to make a decision we are still week concerning the flesh for there is still a war being waged in our members and because of that we are prone to failure

 

[lowrab777]

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[lowrab777]

So I have learned to automaticly associate the words RIGHTEOUS and JUSTIFIED with the word APPROVED. it just helps me make better since of the usage of either of those words, because God is the judge of that which is JUST and only he can APPROVE anything to be JUST it is our duty to recognize the things that he decrees and agree with our creator.

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Ecc 3:9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
Ecc 3:12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
Ecc 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
Ecc 3:16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Of course any time you read either word it must be considered in the context in which it is used

 

[iLOVE]

Let the LORD's people show him reverence, for those who honor him will have all they need. - Psalms 34:9

Then those who feared the LORD talked with each other, and the LORD listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the LORD and honored his name. - Malachi 3:16

My Christian Brothers & Sisters I urge you to continue to reverence the Lord as you do over and over on this forum. God will release to you and I the most precious things of his heart when you operate from the spirit. As you can see in the Book of Remembrance (Malachi 3:16) your Angel records every word and action when you acknowledge God!

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6 NIV

 

[lowrab777]

So I have learned to automaticly associate the words RIGHTEOUS and JUSTIFIED with the word APPROVED. it just helps me make better since of the usage of either of those words, because God is the judge of that which is JUST and only he can APPROVE anything to be JUST it is our duty to recognize the things that he decrees and agree with our creator.

I wonder how others feel about this,... the OP was about the meaning of the word justified...... APPROVED has allways been the way I understand the word. does this help anyone else with the clarity of the word justified ?

 

[JLB]

So I have learned to automaticly associate the words RIGHTEOUS and JUSTIFIED with the word APPROVED. it just helps me make better since of the usage of either of those words, because God is the judge of that which is JUST and only he can APPROVE anything to be JUST it is our duty to recognize the things that he decrees and agree with our creator.

I wonder how others feel about this,... the OP was about the meaning of the word justified...... APPROVED has allways been the way I understand the word. does this help anyone else with the clarity of the word justified ?

I was always taught to think of being Justified as - Just as if you have never sinned.

Which boils down to being declared righteous by God.


JLB

 

[lowrab777]

I was always taught to think of being Justified as - Just as if you have never sinned. Which boils down to being declared righteous by God.

Right so that means that God approved you to be declared righteous and he approved your justification before that.... Right?

 

[lowrab777]

I was always taught to think of being Justified as - Just as if you have never sinned. Which boils down to being declared righteous by God.

And if that where true as if you had never sinned even though everyone has,... wouldnt you require an approval by God to be deemed justified,.. as though you had never sinned or failed?

 

[JLB]

I was always taught to think of being Justified as - Just as if you have never sinned. Which boils down to being declared righteous by God.

And if that where true as if you had never sinned even though everyone has wouldnt you require an approval by God to be deemed justified as though you had never sinned or failed

Yes, however this condition of being justified is conditional upon a person believing God, that is to say having faith.

Faith without works is dead.

Abraham was not declared righteous because he heard God tell him to get out.... but Abraham was declared righteous because he obeyed and went.

He showed he believed by obeying what he was told to do.

Abraham was declared righteous because he was a doer of the word, not a hearer only.


JLB

 

[lowrab777]

I usually don't start threads, but I have been looking for some feedback on this topic on a couple of other threads, to no avail.

Are the words justified and righteous summed up in the word APPROVAL? does that help you pin point the meaning or action of the word when you read it?

 

[lowrab777]

The fear of the lord is what allows us to submit our faulty judgments and miss takes to God for forgiveness sake Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? Psa 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. Psa 130:5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope. The more I live on the more I realize how much I dont really know about what is going on simply because there are invisable things, invisable forces and after all who can know the mind of God and his ways. We are all like little children to him we have no idea what is actually taking place behind that foggy glass we only dimly see silhouettes and shapes. It is humbling to sit in meditation and consider that with out Gods provisions and spiritual guidence there is absolutly no way that I could ever accomplish my obligation with my free will decisions, And it brings me deeper in love with my creator knowing that he does not hold me to debt for all my miss takes as long as I fear his absence and in fear his judgement and seek his { APPROVAL }

I tried to address that in this post JLB

 

[lowrab777]

Abraham was declared righteous because he was a doer of the word, not a hearer only.

I agree totally but the scripture never said he was perfect actually we are very well aware of some of his miss takes especially concerning his ishmeal

 

[JLB]

Abraham was declared righteous because he was a doer of the word, not a hearer only.

I agree totally but the scripture never said he was perfect actually we are very well aware of some of his miss takes especially concerning his ishmeal

Ok, now you have introduced another word into the mix - perfect.

We started with Justified, that went to righteous, then came "approved", now you are talking about perfect.

I will have to study the word Justified more thoroughly to give you then answer you are looking for.

Right now, all I have on Justified is: If Timothy Olivant is not tracking you down, then you would be considered Justified!


JLB

 

[Tallen]

Justified is a legal term, which means; made just. This is in light of the fact that YHWH has a law, and sin is transgression of that law. It's pretty simple.

The Hebrew word, which is equivalent to the Greek, means straight or put on a straight road. This is the biblical foundation of the idea of justification. YHWH has set you on a straight path. And what does the scripture say is the Straight path? Following our Lord (Is. 45:2-3) If we follow Him, he will make the way straight, He will forge the way ahead of us. In fact, the Hebrew word is tsadaq and is made from the root glyphs of tsade, dalet and quph. What is interesting is that you can go to the ancient Hebrew glyphs (little pictures that have meaning) and determine what is in mind with the word. The center letter dalet, is the main idea of in the root of a word. Hebrew root word usually will have three glyphs. The dalet is a picture of a door, something you pass through. The tsade, is a little picture of a journey or path you would follow. And the quph represents a circle or time.

If you put these ideas together, you'll get a picture of what the Hebrew writers of the scripture had in mind when they use the word justified. When you are justified, an act of God, you enter through a door to start on a journey through time. The Hebrews didn't think of time as we do, in a linear fashion or in a time-line. They thought of time in cycles, in circles, that would complete and finish a cycle. If a person is justified, they will set out on a journey of following YHWH's way and complete the journey or cycle at some time future when the circiut has completed. But the idea is that we enter through a door to follow Him on this journey.

This is also the idea in Covenant Theology (Reformed Theology), justification is a legal act in light of the covenant. If you are justified, then you are put on a path of obedience to follow YHWH and His way. Yahshua (Jesus) is our example, as He followed YHWH's way without fault. He became our example of the righteous life as one who never transgressed His Father's law.

Blessings.

 

[lowrab777]

Ok, now you have introduced another word into the mix - perfect.

sorry. you had used the term with out sin, which to me could be termed perfect or flawless.

But your right the word PERFECT should be studied in its own contextual use in scripture because it has been my understanding due to my own studies that {allthough perfect means flawless to me when I use it}, it doesnt necessarily mean that when you read it in scripture my findings have shown me that in some cases PERFECT means COMPLETE and not flawless which I think fits the APPROVAL process of being deemed JUSTIFIED or RIGHTEOUS

 

[lowrab777]

This is also the idea in Covenant Theology (Reformed Theology), justification is a legal act in light of the covenant. If you are justified, then you are put on a path of obedience to follow YHWH and His way. Yahshua (Jesus) is our example, as He followed YHWH's way without fault. He became our example of the righteous life as one who never transgressed His Father's law.

Pro 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Pro 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

So does the word APPROVED fit for you

 

[Tallen]

So does the word APPROVED fit for you

Well..., it depends upon what you are approved to do. Are you using "justified" and "approved" as synonyms? Remember that justification is a legal term and is used to mean that a person is put into a different category than he was prior.

1) He was a transgressor of YHWH's law.
2) He is set in the position to follow YHWH's law.

 

[mondar]

Of course I would agree with the statement that a person with saving faith can never loose his faith. On the other hand, the person with the dead faith, was never really saved in the first place. As verse 14 says, can that faith save? The expected answer is "no." Dead faith does not save.

This is what the OP is about. I don't think you can hold both positions. IF you think that we can show our true faith, it means that you actually HAVE saving faith that others can see. Therefore, if a person has shown they have true faith, then apostatize, the excuse "never saved in the first place" is illogical, because he has shown that his faith is true.

James 2 has no comparison between the person who apostatized and the person who has true faith. It is a contrast between the person who has a dead faith (one that does not save) and a person with true faith. The person with the dead faith cannot apostatize because he does not have true saving faith.

So then, yes, I would not see the two statements as mutually exclusive. The person with true faith (one whom the Spirit has regenerated them) has no desire to apostatize. The person with dead faith (unregenerate) cannot apostatize because he began as apostate even though he was within the institutional Church.

Dadof10, this is not meant to be derogatory in any way, and is not in the least an expression of frustration. I sincerely wonder if you do not have a blind side in your theology here because as a Roman Catholic you think of initial justification of all those brought into the Church. On the other hand, from your perspective, you might think I have a blind side to my theology because I do not think in terms of initial justification. The person in 1 John 2:19 that I mention below was a part of the institutional Church and if he were Roman Catholic, even thought he would be baptized, the text of 1John 1:19 says "he was never of us." In other words, the ceremony of Baptism did not justify or save him. So then, that person in 1 John 2:19 and the person who has a "dead faith" in James 2 cannot apostatize because their starting point is not salvation with a dead faith.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.
Those who fall from the faith, may have been among us, and even worshiped with us, but there were never really of us.

It is also not rare for some who show this faith, to revert back to their previous lives. Some people take years, others months, but there are those who perform all the "works" I listed above (and then some) then, after a certain amount time has past, revert to apathy, or worse, atheism.

To put it another way, most of the backsliders who "saved" Christians would consider "never really saved...", have, in the past, "showed" or PROVED they really were saved and simply lost this salvation.

I would just like to get some thoughts from those who hold this interpretation of James and OSAS. How can you reconcile a "shown to be righteous" interpretation of James 2 and the fact that some of the people who do show it, backslide?

Dadof10, I too have meet some of these people you mention who might say "I was once saved." Not long ago, there was a young girl in the office where I work. She went to Bible College, wanted to be a youth pastor, then after months or years, she fell away. She would have agreed with you that she was once saved. Yet when I discussed biblical, theological, and spiritual things, I would get these replies that demonstrated that she really did not understand the basic teachings of Christianity and God's grace.

I recognize that some of what we are saying here neither of us can prove. It is anecdotal. I am sure neither of us want to settle things on an anecdotal basis, but on the basis of scriptural exegesis. However, even youth pastors, protestant clergy (and Catholic priests), and many others who might look great in the faith will fall because they were never really of us. They started from the wrong point. If you start from the wrong point, 100% will fall. There was never really a chance in the first place. As they would say in OSAS, "they were never really saved."

So then the question is not, did they fall, but the question is did they start from a correct starting point. When James compares the person with a dead faith with the person with a true faith, how can you demonstrate from the context that the person with the dead faith ever had a correct starting point of true faith?

Again, I recognize that you will want to think in terms of initial justification, or some anecdotal situation, but we are doing exegesis of James 2, right?

If I can ask a question here, when James was speaking of the dead faith, was the person with the dead faith fellowshipping in a congregation in the early Church or not?

Yes, I think so. He starts out by calling them "brothers".

Was the term "brothers" for those of a dead faith and he was making a statement with theological intent, saying they were saved? Or on the other hand, was he just making a generic statement to his readers? Was he speaking of the readers as his brother, or the person with dead faith?

I am going to admit something to the shame of protestants. I hope this is not seen as too negative by some, or too shocking. Some people have drifted through some of the protestant Churches I have been in and they sound as Pelagian as can be. Some of these can be so far off the understanding of God's Grace that they cannot be considered real protestants. I am dead serious that they sound unOrthodox with their Pelagian theology. Some of these people get involved for a while, they look really good, and then they leave Church and some go to a different Church, some do not go to a Church at all. They might produce something that might even look like good works for a while. They might deceive some in the congregation that they are good Christian's on fire. When some of these people fall away, I am not shocked. Of course some of them go on, learn truth, and increasingly serve God.

I think of the parable of the seeds. Some of the seed grows for a time, but it does not take root.

Do these people "show" their true faith, in your opinion?

Hmmm, I can see that on an Anecdotal basis some people might think that they did some of the works that demonstrate a true faith. On the other hand, I would continue to disagree that they were the works which demonstrate a true faith.

I might be making an extreme illustration that is not realistic, but I hope it demonstrates the point. Lets say a Mormon (the most polytheistic religion known to man) came into your congregation. They believe in polytheism, have a completely pelagian theology, and from the beginning believe every unorthodox and heretical position known in the history of Christianity. Not one ounce of Orthodoxy. Then some priest baptizes them, (or some protestant preacher) and they begin to help the elderly, and do a few nice things. No will you accept this as true faith and their works as demonstrating their true faith? I know some Mormons. some Mormons are really nice people and do some really nice things. Can we throw a little water on one of them, and then quickly say they are saved, but then when the change their minds and leave the Catholic (or Baptist) Church can we say they lost their salvation? They never changed their minds on their polytheism or pelagianism, they believed those things all along. They just got baptized and did a few nice things and then a year or two later they left the Church.

Let me add that I see testimony's of people that leave my own faith and then go into all sorts of religions. Yet I have yet to meet one of these people that leave, that can properly represent the doctrines that we believe. They try, but badly misrepresent what my church believes.

I should make an effort to come back and see if you reply. I will not have time in the next week, and may loose this post in the shuffle. Good talking with you. Later.

You to. I really hope you can find the time to come back. I really enjoy your insights, even though I disagree with a lot of them. ;) I'm running out of time lately myself. I'll respond when I can. Nice talking to you too, chap...

Well, I came back briefly just too look and see if you made a reply. Take that as a compliment... : ). I have to go again now, my lunch break at work has been over.