The miracle rebirth of Israel

[golfjack]

In order to really appreciate the miracle rebirth of Israel, let's consider Old Testament promises of God. For example, Deut. 30:3 says: God will return and gather thee from all the nations. God says, out of every nation I will gather my people back to their land. Has He done it? No nation has ever been persecuted and scattered like Israel has; but today in spite of insurmountable odds, surrounded by 120 million people that said Israel would never come back as a nation, Israel exists as a nation with four million people. It's a miracle. You might ask, is it really that big a miracle? It sure is. I believe the nation of Israel even began with a miracle. Do you?


May God bless, golfjack

 

[Quath]

So when people tried to decide what to do with the Jews after WWII, they wanted to know where to put them. Their anti-semitism usually meant they didn't want them in their land. The Jews saw the same prophecy you talked about and tried to fulfill it. The other nations were glad they didn't have to take in the Jews and thus Israel was reborn.

So it was a self-fulfilled prophecy.

Quath

 

[Poke]

In order to really appreciate the miracle rebirth of Israel, let's consider Old Testament promises of God. For example, Deut. 30:3 says: God will return and gather thee from all the nations. God says, out of every nation I will gather my people back to their land. Has He done it? No nation has ever been persecuted and scattered like Israel has;

Golfjack, read the verse just previous to Deut 30:3, Deut 30:2 "And when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today..." Do you think the Jews of the state of Israel have returned to the LORD and obey Him with all their heart and soul? Taking that passage in simple terms, God won't restore the state of Israel until the Jews become Christians. In more complex terms, Christians are Jews are the restored Israel. Becoming a Christian brings one into Israel - this is the clear teaching of the New Testament - rejecting this is what makes zionists anti-christ.

Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[golfjack]

reply

No, it was a supernatural act of God.




May God bless, golfjack

 

[AVBunyan]

It's a miracle. You might ask, is it really that big a miracle? It sure is. I believe the nation of Israel even began with a miracle. Do you?
May God bless, golfjack

Brother - I understand what you are trying to say but let's get the doctrine straight.

The Israel over there is not there under God's blessing - they may be Israel by blood but they are not God's people right now nor has the nation been restored -
The real restoration will come at the end of the tribulation and then Ezek. 37 and Jer. 31:31 will come into fruition.

God bless

 

[John the Baptist]

It just is not going to happen! God's promises are [all] covenant conditioned ones. (unless otherwise said) See Matthew 4:6 for a quoted promise by satan himself to Christ. (that was almost a Word for Word promise from the K.J. Psalm 91:11-12)

Math. 25 has a closed door! Matthew 23:38 has a DESOLATE house! Who is now their master? Try Revelation 3:9 for the removal of Laodicea's candlestick! SPEWED OUT in Revelation 3:16-17.

NO: Romans 2:28-29 tells who are now Israel! Their (the nation of Israel) Revelation 2:5 candlestick has been replaced. And there are only 'seven'! Individual Jews can be saved only as a individual by accepting Christ's Everlasting Gospel. Acts 4:12. There is a True Virgin Fold and even out of their apostasy comes the 144000 Remnant. Revelation 7 finds a lot more of Christ's saved ones, yet, 'spiritual' Jews they became, even if by not knowing it! : Hebrews 11:13

If you don't want to called a Jew, you would not like heaven for that is all that will be there! So if you are going to go? You best get used to the tag! See Matthew 10:25 if that bother you? : From Adam on. That is correct, he was created with no need of the Born heart until sin. Again Romans 2:17-29 or just Romans 2:26-29.

---John

 

[golfjack]

reply

A.V., I have been studying this subject and end-times for a long time now. I could write a book about this subject. I just don't have time to post all of this, but you are right when you say there will a remant saved during the Tribulation.

The concept of replacement thelogy is popular in America Churches. They say that Israel failed, and God has replaced Israel with the church. This simply is not true. If one is a extreme Calvanist that doesn't believe in the rapture, and people that have formed pet beliefs about this subject will fall flat on their faces if they would study Romans 9, 10, and 11.

Twice in Romans 11 Paul speaks that Israel has not fallen and is still the apple of God's eye. ( Rom. 11:1, 11). In the New Testament, the word Israel is used 74 times. Clearly in most of these verses, Paul is not talking about the Church.

Has God cast away Israel? No way. The fact is, when something is cast away, you never hear of it again. Yet in the Book of Revelation, 12 tribes of Israel, and 12 thousand out of each of the 12 tribes, are sealed to present the Gospel during the Tribulation ( Rev. 7:4).

If anyone has any questions about this subject, feel free to ask.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[destiny]

Re: reply

A.V., I have been studying this subject and end-times for a long time now. I could write a book about this subject. I just don't have time to post all of this, but you are right when you say there will a remant saved during the Tribulation.

The concept of replacement thelogy is popular in America Churches. They say that Israel failed, and God has replaced Israel with the church. This simply is not true. If one is a extreme Calvanist that doesn't believe in the rapture, and people that have formed pet beliefs about this subject will fall flat on their faces if they would study Romans 9, 10, and 11.

Twice in Romans 11 Paul speaks that Israel has not fallen and is still the apple of God's eye. ( Rom. 11:1, 11). In the New Testament, the word Israel is used 74 times. Clearly in most of these verses, Paul is not talking about the Church.

Has God cast away Israel? No way. The fact is, when something is cast away, you never hear of it again. Yet in the Book of Revelation, 12 tribes of Israel, and 12 thousand out of each of the 12 tribes, are sealed to present the Gospel during the Tribulation ( Rev. 7:4).

If anyone has any questions about this subject, feel free to ask.


May God bless, golfjack

Amen, golfjack!! Yes, replacement theology has done a number on the churches hasn't it?
You will find that a lot of the people on this site are anti-Israel.
God forbid that we forget we are only grafted in.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Thanks destiny. If God would break His covenant with Israel, the question is would He break the Covenant He has for us.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[John the Baptist]

ISRAEL IS WHOM?

John here:

Over on this thread 'You be the judge thread' we will see part 4 soon with seeing who will join forces with Israel shortly. One thing for sure is, is that someone is wrong & SOME ONE'S ARE RIGHT, HUH? :

Yet, it will lead into the last great counterfeit. And it seems that it was Christ who said that something or other will deceive the very elect if it were possible? Of course that has got to be me. (and only a few others really)

Paul says that Israel will return you say? Well, if that is so, then that is where the AntiChrist must set up shop, right? And can Israel of old be Christian antiChrist? But, I agree, I think that the world as a whole will 'believe that' and are 'set up' for that!

Just a closing thought: You say Paul says so?? Yet, Christ says their house IS LEFT UNTO YOU D-E-S-O-L-A-T-E! Matthew 23:38. What does that mean? And the Revelation 2:5 verse is the Word of God, what does the verse mean? Matthew 25:10 tells of a CLOSED DOOR, what does that mean? Isaiah 5 is a whole chapter of Israel's prophecy. See verse 5:3, what does.. "Judge betwixt Me and My Vineyard" mean? Who, & what did they choose? And, yes, someone will set up shop there, but not a church that Christ is in!
See Joshua 7:12's last part of the K.J. verse for how you can get Christ inside of Catholicism & old Israel???

OK: Paul under 'Inspiration' states in 1 Corinthians 14:32 that .. "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." what does that mean? Can we read Christ's Words & then have Paul with another Inspired verse saying just the opposite? I doubt that we would agree to that?

SO??: Either Christs many verses or Pauls few, are being read wrong, by me or others,right? So, Lets just test ourself?? Over in Acts 10:9-19 we see Peter having a [THREE TIME VISION] FROM GOD!! Read the verses & ask yourself why Peter had a contradiction with this plain talk talk from God? If you know why, before it even unfolded, you can arrive at mans 'spiritual' Born Again wisdom! :fadein: Let me help a tad bit? God NEVER CHANGES, He is the SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER! What does that mean? That meant that Peter KNEW that he did not understand what God was telling him. And God NEVER has Paul change His Truth either!

---John

 

[Poke]

Re: reply

The concept of replacement thelogy is popular in America Churches.

"Replacement theology" means "Christianity."

Twice in Romans 11 Paul speaks that Israel has not fallen and is still the apple of God's eye. ( Rom. 11:1, 11).

Romans 11:1 goes on to mention a remnant, that would be the Jews who accepted Christ. Those who reject Christ belong to Satan.

Romans 11:11 says they fell, just not beyond recovery. They can still accept Jesus and become Christians. Those who reject Jesus belong to Satan.

Ultimately, zionism means you don't think Jews need Jesus to be saved.

 

[Poke]

Re: reply

Yes, replacement theology has done a number on the churches hasn't it?

Other than your concern that Christianity (so-called replacement theology) is accepted by a number of people in church, what harm do you think has resulted from this?

Zionism has done a number on the churches, hasn't it?

God forbid that we forget we are only grafted in.

God forbid that you forget the Jews were broken off.

 

[Vic C.]

Brother - I understand what you are trying to say but let's get the doctrine straight.

The Israel over there is not there under God's blessing - they may be Israel by blood but they are not God's people right now nor has the nation been restored -
The real restoration will come at the end of the tribulation and then Ezek. 37 and Jer. 31:31 will come into fruition.

God bless

Amen AV. We may disagree on some points concerning End Times, but not here.

Hey Destiny, this is in line with the other thread in which I quoted OT scripture. Here is another one:

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The fire here is God's Wrath during the final days of the final week.

golfjack, I don't believe what AV said is replacement theory at all. He knows Paul and his words and understands what it means to be "grafted in". It's not replacement if God is still saving 1/3 through the refining fires of HIS Wrath.

AV, correct me if I'm wrong. Don't be shy. :

Taking that passage in simple terms, God won't restore the state of Israel until the Jews become Christians.

Poke, is there scripture that backs up that statement?

Thanks.

 

[AVBunyan]

Amen AV. We may disagree on some points concerning End Times, but not here.
golfjack, I don't believe what AV said is replacement theory at all. He knows Paul and his words and understands what it means to be "grafted in". It's not replacement if God is still saving 1/3 through the refining fires of HIS Wrath.

AV, correct me if I'm wrong. Don't be shy. : Thanks.

Thanks Vic - I firmly believe the church has not replaced Israel - Here is what I believe the scriptures teach regarding God’s plan for Israel and theh church.

1. God called Israel to be a nation of kingdom and priests in Exo. 19 to dispense God’s blessings to the Gentile nations. They failed and God scattered them.

2. They got a second chance (Gospels) and they blew it.

3. They got a third chance (Acts) and a God put them on the back burner until a future time when he will restore them – God scattered them and they are still scattered. 1948 was not the re-gathering in any way.

4. God called out Paul to reveal what had been hid from BEFORE the foundation of the world – the body of Christ. This was fully revealed and instituted after Acts 28.

5. The body of Christ goes out (not by I Cor. 15 or I Thess. 4) and is not in the book of Revelation or the tribulation in any way. The church remains seated in Christ in heavenly places.

6. Israel makes it through the tribulation and at the end Jesus comes back and leads them into the land that was promised to Abraham’s seed in Gen. 12-15. There Jer. 31:31 and Ezek. is fulfilled along with Amos 9:14.

7. Israel gets the earthly kingdom that God promised them. For eternity they are a nation of kings and priests dispensing God’s blessings too the nations from within their land - the earthly calling.

8. Abraham and his calling get the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-4; Heb. 11:10, 16; 12:22; Rev. 21) – the heavenly calling

9. The church gets their position far above all principalities and powers – the high calling – Eph. 1-3.

And there folks, in a nutshell, is God’s plan for all three groups.

God bless

 

[Poke]

Taking that passage in simple terms, God won't restore the state of Israel until the Jews become Christians.

Poke, is there scripture that backs up that statement?

Golfjack points to Deut 30:3. Here is the context:

1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.

 

[Poke]

Taking that passage in simple terms, God won't restore the state of Israel until the Jews become Christians.

Poke, is there scripture that backs up that statement?

Golfjack points to Deut 30:3. Here is the context:

1 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.

 

[destiny]

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Ezek 13:23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Clearly the Lord will honor His covenant with Israel. They haven't been replaced, they just haven't been brought to the place of their redemption yet.
Gentiles are told to remember that the olive tree holds us up and NOT to be arrogant or boast against the "natural branches" because they can be grafted in again.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Yes, vic... I believe the word is clear that it will take the refining fires ofwrath(?) to bring the Jews to their knees.
The reason for the question mark is because I didn't know it would be through wrath ....I always thought, through tribulations.

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

A.V., I have been studying this subject and end-times for a long time now. I could write a book about this subject. I just don't have time to post all of this, but you are right when you say there will a remant saved during the Tribulation.

The concept of replacement thelogy is popular in America Churches. They say that Israel failed, and God has replaced Israel with the church. This simply is not true. If one is a extreme Calvanist that doesn't believe in the rapture, and people that have formed pet beliefs about this subject will fall flat on their faces if they would study Romans 9, 10, and 11.

Twice in Romans 11 Paul speaks that Israel has not fallen and is still the apple of God's eye. ( Rom. 11:1, 11). In the New Testament, the word Israel is used 74 times. Clearly in most of these verses, Paul is not talking about the Church.

Has God cast away Israel? No way. The fact is, when something is cast away, you never hear of it again. Yet in the Book of Revelation, 12 tribes of Israel, and 12 thousand out of each of the 12 tribes, are sealed to present the Gospel during the Tribulation ( Rev. 7:4).

If anyone has any questions about this subject, feel free to ask.


May God bless, golfjack

Admitingly this is not a strong subject of mine, but I agree with Golfjack on this. Gods hands are so all over Israel to this very day. Replacement theology is of the devil and is just wrong. click on this link and see if Gods hands are not all over israel.
http://nyjtimes.com/cover/03-10-03/Mira ... eofWar.htm
Its an old article but blesses me everytime I read it.

 

[destiny]

Re: reply

http://nyjtimes.com/cover/03-10-03/Mira ... eofWar.htm
Its an old article but blesses me everytime I read it.

It blessed me too ...I'm gonna keep that one.

 

[Poke]

Re: reply

Replacement theology is of the devil and is just wrong.

You're saying Christianity is of the devil.

click on this link and see if Gods hands are not all over israel.
http://nyjtimes.com/cover/03-10-03/Mira ... eofWar.htm
Its an old article but blesses me everytime I read it.

No miracles there, just the results of asymmetrical warfare, and an Arab world not as devoted to Israel's destruction as zionists imagine.

If God's hand is on Israel, he sure isn't letting them have any peace. Israel just started and lost a war with Hezbollah. Maybe God was too busy the last couple of months.