The miracle rebirth of Israel

[Vic C.]

Come let us reason together in love – Here is some food for thought…

Standard teaching (I used to believe this also) is the church will inhabit the New Jerusalem. Study it out – read John 14, Heb.11 and 12 and Rev 21 (search out the word “cityâ€Â) - Israel and Abraham are associated with this city not the present body of Christ. And this city will come down to earth or hover above it - not sure here - still working on it.

The body of Christ is found in Christ far above all principalities and powers above the heavens – Eph. 1-3.

Check it out – our position is in Christ and is better than New Jerusalem!

Good stuff here. I too believed that once. Lets go one step further; do a search in the OT (KJB) for the word bride. Then look at Revelation 21:2. What I am about to say is not very popular around Christian circles. I used to believe that we are the bride. But after studying this bride in the OT, I now believe "they" are the Bride of Christ and we are the Body of Christ.

Revelation 21:2 capped it off for me.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This city has some very interesting characteristics:

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:



Go ahead... shoot me.

 

[jgredline]

Come let us reason together in love – Here is some food for thought…

Standard teaching (I used to believe this also) is the church will inhabit the New Jerusalem. Study it out – read John 14, Heb.11 and 12 and Rev 21 (search out the word “cityâ€Â) - Israel and Abraham are associated with this city not the present body of Christ. And this city will come down to earth or hover above it - not sure here - still working on it.

The body of Christ is found in Christ far above all principalities and powers above the heavens – Eph. 1-3.

Check it out – our position is in Christ and is better than New Jerusalem!

Good stuff here. I too believed that once. Lets go one step further; do a search in the OT (KJB) for the word bride. Then look at Revelation 12:2. What I am about to say is not very popular around Christian circles. I used to believe that we are the bride. But after studying this bride in the OT, I now believe "they" are the Bride of Christ and we are the Body of Christ.

Revelation 21:2 capped it off for me.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This city has some very interesting characteristics:

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:



Go ahead... shoot me.

:smt071

 

[destiny]

:smt067 Theres you a dose of double ought buckshot! :D

But seriously, it doesn't matter ....our ultimate position in Him is all that will matter in the end, he'll sort out the rest.

 

[Vic C.]

^ Look, they love me. ^

Ok, let's get back on topic. 8-)

 

[AVBunyan]

I used to believe that we are the bride. But after studying this bride in the OT, I now believe "they" are the Bride of Christ and we are the Body of Christ.

Revelation 21:2 capped it off for me - Go ahead... shoot me.

I won't shoot you Vic - instead I'l give you a hearty amen for you letting the scriiptures speak.

I to had to come to grips with this some time ago. I agree - we are not the bride - it appears the bride is Israel.

Good work Vic 8-)
God bless

 

[jgredline]

AV
Can we shoot you as well? :-D

 

[Solo]

Come let us reason together in love – Here is some food for thought…

Standard teaching (I used to believe this also) is the church will inhabit the New Jerusalem. Study it out – read John 14, Heb.11 and 12 and Rev 21 (search out the word “cityâ€Â) - Israel and Abraham are associated with this city not the present body of Christ. And this city will come down to earth or hover above it - not sure here - still working on it.

The body of Christ is found in Christ far above all principalities and powers above the heavens – Eph. 1-3.

Check it out – our position is in Christ and is better than New Jerusalem!

Good stuff here. I too believed that once. Lets go one step further; do a search in the OT (KJB) for the word bride. Then look at Revelation 21:2. What I am about to say is not very popular around Christian circles. I used to believe that we are the bride. But after studying this bride in the OT, I now believe "they" are the Bride of Christ and we are the Body of Christ.

Revelation 21:2 capped it off for me.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This city has some very interesting characteristics:

Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:



Go ahead... shoot me.

Don't forget verse 13:

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Revelation 21:13

I believe that the bride of Christ is New Jerusalem and is made up of all of God's children, Jewish chosen and Gentile believers. The 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles names will be forever emblazened in the foundations and gates of the NEW JERUSALEM. I have never held to the belief that the Church was the bride of Christ.

 

[Vic C.]

I believe that the bride of Christ is New Jerusalem and is made up of all of God's children, Jewish chosen and Gentile believers. The 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles names will be forever emblazened in the foundations and gates of the NEW JERUSALEM. I have never held to the belief that the Church was the bride of Christ.

Yes, you and I have talked about that in the End Times Forum. I think we were boo'd for it too. lol

 

[Solo]

I believe that the bride of Christ is New Jerusalem and is made up of all of God's children, Jewish chosen and Gentile believers. The 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles names will be forever emblazened in the foundations and gates of the NEW JERUSALEM. I have never held to the belief that the Church was the bride of Christ.

Yes, you and I have talked about that in the End Times Forum. I think we were boo'd for it too. lol

Yes, I believe we were. I have been booed for my pre-wrath stand on gathering to meet the Lord Jesus in the air as well, as are you. Oh well, One day everyone will agree with me, and I will agree with everyone. I can't wait. Come quickly Lord Jesus.

 

[AVBunyan]

Revelation 21:2 capped it off for me.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This city has some very interesting characteristics:

Hey Vic let's take this "interesting characteristics" a bit further - The reasoning you ued (and rightfully so) is the basis for why I do not believe the body of Christ is in any part of tribulation. The character of Revelation is Jewish from start to finish.

Think of Revelation as an extention of the OT with no church age revealed - Revelation is OT truths with more revealed detailed - nothing in ther fits body of Christ truth - makes good preaching but poor doctrine.

The majority of Revelation concerns Gods judgement on the nations and Israel, God's preservation of Israel and the second advent and then the 1,000 year reign and finally eternity. Couldn't find the church there with an electron microscope. :o

God bless

 

[Georges]

Building on what AV stated....www.jewishencyclopedia.com has a good deal to say on the Jewish conception of "New" or "Heavenly" Jerusalem. It is a Jewish belief that the Heavenly Jerusalem will descend after the destruction of evil and the the destruction of Jerusalem of this age.....

Do a general search in the site above for "new Jerusalem" or "heavenly Jerusalem" and all that info will come up....

Here is just one article on it....

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 0jerusalem

type in "new", or "heavenly" Jerusalem and check the box under the search line to search this particular document....

I think you will find the info interesting...

 

[Poke]

Hi Poke. I'm just not seeing this in scripture. First of all, there is no Genesis 12:27. I believe the verse you are looking for is Genesis 15:18:

Oops, that's Gen 12:7. But, other verses work, as well.

The seed is not Jesus. The seed is the child between Abraham and Sarah... Isaac.

I was taking Paul's word for it: Gal 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Isaac was also a man of God and line of Christ. Go back two verses to Gen 17:19. Isaac and his seed, not seeds. What Paul says about Abraham applies here, as well.

It doesn't matter whether it says seed or seeds; Scripture confirms the land and covenant was to Abraham, his seed and it's offspring.

Even in the zionist view, God took away the land for about 2000 years. That would be breaking the covenant because everlasting means always. And, nort even zionists consider all of Abraham's children to be part of the covenant.

The Hebrew people have also never controlled all the land between the rivers in Egypt and Iraq. They also have hardly ever had control over Jerusalem.

 

[Vic C.]

...The majority of Revelation concerns Gods judgement on the nations and Israel, God's preservation of Israel and the second advent and then the 1,000 year reign and finally eternity. Couldn't find the church there with an electron microscope. :o

God bless

Michael, we've been boo'd again. :wink:

AV, I pray you are correct, but prepare that you may be wrong.

 

[Vic C.]

Hey Poke, thanks for responding. It's a good thing George is not here. He might tell you Paul was wrong or that he misunderstood.

Oh, er... I didn't say that. :wink:

 

[AVBunyan]

AV, I pray you are correct, but prepare that you may be wrong.

I have yet to have anyone show me the body of Christ in the OT or Revelation.

I sleep like a baby at night regarding this issue :wink:

God bless

 

[Jay T]

There are 2 Israels.
One national, and one spiritual.
National Israel was rejected by God (Daniel 9:24-27), Spiritual Israel remains.

National and spiritual Israel are interwoven right now ....no man can make the distinction between the two with the natural eye. In rejecting one you could very well be rejecting the other.
Only God can sort out His own....and He will in time.

Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God".
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh (Israel ?), these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



NATIONAL ISRAEL and SPIRITUAL ISRAEL
(the church is now the nation of Israel)

Old T (National Israel)......Literal Kingdom, Visible King, City, Temple, Sacrifices, Alters, ect.


New T (Spiritual Israel) ..........Luke 17: 20,21.....1 Peter 2: 5,9......1 Corinthians 10: 3....Colossians 1: 13...Hebrews 4: 16.....ect.

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel)....Holy Nation (Exodus 19: 5,6)

NT (Spiritual Israel)....Holy Nation (1 Peter 2: 9.....Zeph. 2: 1....Matthew 21: 43)

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel )....Kingdom of Priests (Exodus 19: 5,6)

NT (Spiritual Israel)..... Kingdom of Priests (1 Peter 2: 5,9....Revelation 1: 6....Rev. 4: 4, 5: 10).

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel).....God's peculiar treasure (Exodus 19: 5,6)

NT (Spiritual Israel).....God's Peculiar treasure (1 Peter 2: 9)

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel).....God's people (Hosea 1: 9,10....Romans 9: 6-8)

NT (Spiritual Israel) .....God's people ( 1 Peter 2:9)

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel)....God's holy people ( Deut. 7: 6)

NT (Spiritual Israel)....God's holy people (1 Peter 1: 15,16)

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel)....A people of inheritance (Deut. 4: 20)

NT (Spiritual Israel)....A people of inheritance (Ephesians 1: 18)

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel).....Israel's shepherd (Jer. 31: 10)

NT (Spiritual Israel) .....Israel's shepherd (John 10: 11)

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel)......Israel's Salvation (Isaiah 45: 17)

NT (Spiritual Israel)......Israel's Salvation (Hebrews 5: 9...9: 15)

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel).....God's tabernacle among Israel (Leviticus 26: 11)

NT (Spiritual Israel)......God's tabernacle among Israel ( John 1: 14)

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel).....God walked among them (Leviticus 26: 12)

NT (Spiritual Israel).....God walked among them (2 Corinthians 6: 16-18)

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel)....Christ married to his people (Isaiah 54: 5...Jer. 3: 14...Hosea 2: 19...Jer. 6: 2, 31: 32)

NT (Spiritual Israel).....Christ married to the church (Ephesians 5: 23-33...2 Corinthians 11: 2...James 4: 4...Romans 7:1-4...Revelation chapter 12, 'Christ's bride')

***************************************************************

OT (National Israel).....Literal Zion (2: 6, 50: 2)

NT (Spiritual Israel)....Spiritual Zion-the church (Joel 2: 32...Romans 10: 13...Isaiah 28: 16...1 Peter 2:6-8...Isaiah 59: 20...Romans 11: 26...Psalms 2: 6)

***************************************************************



Christ Rejects National Israel:

Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
21:39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].
21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


All the Prophecies about National Israel...now apply to Spiritual Israel.
Remember that when studying Revelation Prophecies.

 

[jgredline]

Jay T
So you believe in replacement theology?

 

[destiny]

Jay T ...Theres a difference in a systematic study and a doctrinal fact if theres contridictions.

In Romans 11:11-12, 25, we are told that “blindness in part†has come to the Jews so that the message would be forced out into the nations. Nevertheless, we are told that a time would come when “all Israel would be savedâ€Â
The 'Jews" will be refined as Zec 13:9 says.


I'll let 'bridges for peace' speak for me...

ABSOLUTELY. THE BIBLE IS CLEAR ON THIS.

1) The Jews are Israelites, not Gentiles (Rom. 9:4). 2) To Israel still belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises (Rom. 9:4). 3) The gifts and calling of God for Israel are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29). 4) There are 77 references to Israel in the NT and none of them refer to the Church. Try replacing the words, “the Church,†where Israel is mentioned and the passage is rendered unreadable and silly, e.g., Rom. 10:1, “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.†If you put “the Church†where Israel is mentioned, then it is redundant. The Church is the body of saved believers, so how could Paul’s prayer be for the Church to be saved? 5) Psalm 105 has a seven-fold affirmation of God’s promises of Canaan to Abraham. This is an everlasting promise, as was Genesis 12:1-3. 6) Jeremiah 31:35-37 speaks of the everlasting nature of God’s promises to and for Israel, the Jewish people, which is as sure as the sun that shines by day and the moon and stars that glow in the night. 7) The end-time prophecies, which speak of the return of the House of Jacob to their land (Israel) and its restoration, have overwhelmingly been fulfilled in Israel and the Jewish people in the past 120 years. (See, Isa. 11:11-12; Eze. 37:1-14; Eze. 36; Eze. 35:1, Isa. 43:5,6; Jer. 16:14-16; Isa. 60:9-11; Isa. 49:22-23, etc.). 8) The Gospel and Yeshua came “to the Jews first, then the Greek†(Rom. 2:9,10; Matt:10:5-7;15:24). There is a distinction in roles between the two. Galatians 3:28 says: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.†This is speaking of everyone’s standing before God as equals, because we are all sinners saved by God’s grace and the atoning work on the Cross. Nevertheless, our roles here on earth are definitely distinct; e.g., men and women, mothers and fathers, husbands and wives, etc. all have distinct roles to play. Likewise, Jews and Gentiles have distinct roles to play.

What is the Role of the Church?

1) “On this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it†(Matt. 16:18). The Church is built on the testimony and understanding of Peter, who is Jewish, that Yeshua was the Messiah. Ephesians 2:11-14 indicates that Israel and the Jews (we) were chosen, but Gentiles (you) were also included. 2) The Church is related to Israel and partakers of the covenants, promises, and hopes, but we have not been called to usurp them. Our relationship is as “grafted in†(Rom. 11:17); “brought near†(Eph 2:13); “Abraham’s offspring†(by faith) (Rom. 4:16); “heirs†to Abraham’s promise as adopted sons (Gal. 3:29) and “partakers†(Rom 15:27). 3) To the world, the Church is called to preach the Gospel to all nations and make disciples (Matt. 28:19-20); to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength; and to love our neighbour as ourselves (Mk. 12:30-31). 4) To the Jewish people, we are called to show God’s love “for the sake of the Patriarchs†(Rom. 11:28), for without them we would not have had God’s Word or our Saviour who was a Jew from Israel. We are to show God’s mercy (Rom. 11:31). We are to give our material gifts to help them (Rom. 15:27). We are to pray for them and for Israel (Ps. 122:6). We are to be watchman on the walls to protect them (Isa. 62:6,7). We are to help with the aliyah (immigration) to Israel and the building up of Zion (Isa. 60:9-11; Jer. 16:14-16; Isa. 49:22-23). 5) According to Romans 11, we are two distinct groups, both grafted into the same tree, which are the covenants and promises given to Israel; grounded in the same root, the Messiah; drinking of the same sap, God’s Holy Spirit. We do not hold up the tree, but the tree holds us up, and we are forbidden from boasting against or being arrogant to God’s covenant people the Jews (Rom. 11:17-18).

What Happens When the Church Replaces Israel?

When the Church chooses to replace Israel and the Jewish people in God’s eternal plans, the result is negative:

1) The Church becomes arrogant and self-centred. 2) It boasts against the Jews and Israel. 3) It devalues the role of Israel or has no role for Israel at all. 4) These attitudes result in anti-Semitism in word and deed. 5) Without a place for Israel and the Jewish people today, you cannot explain the Bible prophecies, especially the very specific ones being fulfilled in Israel today. 6) Many New Testament passages do not make sense when the Jewish people are replaced by the Church. 7) You can lose the significance of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, for today. Many Christians boast of being a New Testament (NT) Christian or a NT Church as in the Book of Acts. However, the Bible of the early Church was not the New Testament, which did not get codified until the 4th century, but rather the Hebrew Scriptures. 8) You can lose the Hebraic/Judaic contextualization of the New Testament, which teaches us more about Yeshua and how to become better disciples. 9) The Church loses out on the opportunity to participate in God’s plan and prophecy for the Church, Israel and the world today.

What Happens When the Church Relates to Israel?

When the Church chooses to relate to Israel and the Jewish people in God’s eternal plans, the result is positive:

1) The Church takes its proper role in God’s redemptive plan for the world, appreciating God’s ongoing covenant relationship and love for Israel and the Jewish people. 2) We can see the consistency of God’s redemptive plan from Genesis to Revelation as an ongoing complementary process, not as disconnected snapshots. 3) We show love and honour for God’s covenant people, not contempt. 4) We value the Old and New Testaments as equally inspired and significant for the Church today. 5) Bible prophecy makes sense for today and offers opportunities for involvement in God’s plan for Israel. 6) We become better disciples of Yeshua as we are able to appreciate the Hebraic/Judaic roots that fill in the definitions, concepts, words and events in the New Testament that are otherwise obscured. Why? Many were not explained by the Jewish writers of the New Testament, because they did not feel the need to fill in all the details that were already explained in the Old Testament.

Had the Church understood this very clear message from the beginning, then the sad legacy of anti-Semitic hatred from the Church may have been avoided. The error of Replacement Theology is like a cancer in the Church that has not only caused it to violate God’s Word concerning the Jewish people and Israel, but it made us into instruments of hate, not love in God’s Name. Yet, it is not too late to change our ways and rightly relate to the Jewish people and Israel today. Through Bridges for Peace you can read, study and learn more, and also give to demonstrate God’s exhortation to us to bless His Covenant People, whom He still loves. Not only do we need to learn and do for ourselves, but we need to teach others so as to counteract the historical error that has been fostered in the Church for nearly 2,000 years.

Thank God, He is a God of mercy, redemption and second chances.
Shalom from Jerusalem.

 

[jgredline]

Destiny
Thanks and we are on the same page.
jg

 

[Poke]

Hey Poke, thanks for responding. It's a good thing George is not here. He might tell you Paul was wrong or that he misunderstood.

Oh, er... I didn't say that. :wink:

If Paul is wrong, then so is Jesus. Jesus in John chapter 8 also says the children of Abraham are Christians, not Jews. Paul just explains how this is what the OT says, because the seed of Abraham is Christ, not the jewish people.

Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. (KJV)

A seed, an inheritor, out of Jacob and out of Judah. How could anyone doubt this means Christ? Even if we take it to mean the physical children of Abraham, already the Arab children of Abrahm are excluded, and now 11 of the 12 Hebrew tribes are excluded. God keeps breaking his primise by excluding an increasing number of Abraham's children, if his promise ever was to a race.

How could "bring forth" refer to Jews consideing that Jews were already there when Isaiah was written? Bring forth people already living there?

Who are God's servants? Christians? Jews who deny that Jesus is of God (antichrist)?

Unfortunately, the evil of zionism has corrupted modern translations. So, even though the original-language manuscripts all say a seed (like that which you would plant in the ground), some modern translation say "descents" (plural).

This isn't just a theological argument. It's a practical argument. Zionism is a cancer in the Christian Church that has hindered the Kingdom of God by diverting Christians from fighting moral decay at home to promoting wars abroad.