The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[mlqurgw]

So if you have all confidence then just answer Nate's question.

Why are you hiding the red flag from the bull cowboy? Scared he might charge? ed!

If he thinks he has me in checkmate then let him make his move. You are not seeing the board from both sides so you haven't a clue as to whether he has me in check or not.

 

[Strangelove]

The only one it doesn't make sense to is you I am afraid. You are so blinded by your preconceived notions of what calvinism is that you just can't get past them. You have built a straw man and called it calvinism and then proceed to tear it apart. The only problem with it is that the straw man doesn't even resemble what Calvinisn actually is and you seem unwilling to be honest enough to find out. Hang on to your straw man if you desire. As long as you do I will not waste my time trying to set you straight on what we actually believe. But if you do desire to deal with what we believe honestly then ask whatever questions you like and I will do my best to answer them. But I will not fight a straw man.

Straw man? Huh? Where?

Aaaaaaarrrrrghhhh......STRAW MAN! THERE! The WICKERS are after me!!

Heeeeeeelp!!

Mate....you can apply whatever verbal mechanics you want to get out of questions that you have no answer to. Fact is your stumped.

 

[mlqurgw]

Straw man? Huh? Where?

Aaaaaaarrrrrghhhh......STRAW MAN! THERE! The WICKERS are after me!!

Heeeeeeelp!!

Mate....you can apply whatever verbal mechanics you want to get out of questions that you have no answer to. Fact is your stumped.

Something I want to make clear: I am not here to display some imagined intelligence, if I had any it would be imagined, or to win a contest or debate. I am not here to play games or to defeat an opponent. I am here for the sole purpose of clealy and simply declaring the truth of God as it is in Christ. I am a simple uneducated bumpkin who has spent many years in prayerful study of the Scriptures and a preacher of the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ alone. My whole being is focused on preachng the wonder and glory of Christ Jesus the Lord as He is revealed in the Scriptures. While I am very capable of getting down and dirty in a fight I pray that God in His grace will keep me from stooping to that level.

 

[mlqurgw]

The verse is about Grace. Theres no way around that. You are jumping through fire laced hoops to make this work for you and you tripped and landed on your face in front of the crowd....and they went.....booooooooo.



So I'll just post Hebrews 11:1 again>>> It's the Biblical definition of faith>>

11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen.​

Now...my interpretation is that the 'things hoped for' and 'things not seen' is referring to the birth, life, death, resurrection and second coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Do we agree on that?

The 'substance' and 'evidence'....well..what can that be other than the Gospels?

The Gospels is the proof and the support. It is our direct evidence of the promise.

What is your interpretation of that particular verse...if you please sir.

It doesn't say anything about an act of God in that Biblical definition.



Being born again happens AFTER you receive the Gospel message.



It's not man but GOD who did that. And He did it for a good reason. To show that we make can choices that effect our destiny by OVERCOMING our weak nature. The nature of sin. That is our test.

Al last you actually respond to some of the points I made instead of blustering on. I have to go to work now but will respond to this later when I get home. It is actually the first post you have made to me that deserves a response.

 

[Strangelove]

If he thinks he has me in checkmate then let him make his move. You are not seeing the board from both sides so you haven't a clue as to whether he has me in check or not.

Your deployment of emergency chaff tells me all I need to know about your position fella.

 

[Strangelove]

Al last you actually respond to some of the points I made instead of blustering on. I have to go to work now but will respond to this later when I get home. It is actually the first post you have made to me that deserves a response.

Why bother replying? You said your not here to debate.

And anyhoot. What difference will it make? God has predestined what my point of view will be so how will your response have any effect?

Why bother going to work? Your destiny has already been pre-determined by God? Why are you trying to change your fate?? Huh? Are you a closet Super-calvinist hater?!

 

[savedbygrace57]

So have ALL mankind sinned? Or just the 'elect', the 'chosen' ones of God?

All Mankind has sinned, but only His Sheep did Christ die for to save.

Jn 10:

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

To say that Christ layed down His Life beyond the scope of His Sheep, is pure speculation ! And not the Gospel.

 

[savedbygrace57]

smaller:

and unless God gives you repentance, you are on your way to hell, forever !

Right, unless God gives one Repentance. You seem to overlooked that point completely.

One can tell by what you have Highlighted in red that your motive is faulty and bias and geared at misrepresentation of my point.

 

[Strangelove]

Right, unless God gives one Repentance.

How can God give repentance? :

Repentance is something a sinner does through their own concious efforts.

Show me somewhere in the Bible where God gives repentance please.

 

[Nathan]

All Mankind has sinned, but only His Sheep did Christ die for to save.

Jn 10:

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

To say that Christ layed down His Life beyond the scope of His Sheep, is pure speculation ! And not the Gospel.

You know, I do not think I have ever said that He did not lay down His life for the sheep, and the sheep alone. But I also will not state that the sheep are only a few in number. And to say that the sheep cannot be all humans is pure speculation also. No where does it say that we can know who are sheep and who are goats. And if He want to change a goat into a sheep? Can He? He can make a rock worship Him if He wants.

Why will you not answer any of my other questions?

 

[Nathan]

Why do I feel like I am being set up for something? Why don't you just make your point instead of setting me up? I am sorry but I ain't so foolish as to continue to answer in order to be set up. Make your point please and I will answer it.

I am not sure why you feel like that. I never meant to make you feel like that. I am simply trying to grasp where you are coming from in your line of thinking. I do not believe it is foolish to answer questions. I have no point other than what I have been stating all along. The question I ask is really a simple one. If there is some vagueness about it, I am unaware of it. In fact, I would venture to say that it is a simple yes or no question.

Has He ever rejected any who's name has been written in the book of life? Or in other words, to help clarify the question if there is any uncertainty; Has He ever blotted out anyones name who has been written in the book of life?

 

[smaller]

How can God give repentance? :

Repentance is something a sinner does through their own concious efforts.

Show me somewhere in the Bible where God gives repentance please.

Romans 2:
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Faith is a gift of God. In some way or another God reveals Himself to a person. From then on, that person will be unable to deny... They will not want to deny…

And no, I do not discuss predestination with non-believers. Predestination is really not an evangelical tool. Nevertheless, it is biblical.

-HisSheep

I would disagree with you about predestination, for it has its mention in the whole counsel of the Gospel declaration.

Paul stated that in Preaching the Gospel of Gods Grace, that He shunned not to make known all the counsel of God.

acts 20:


24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27For I have not shunned to declare [preach, announce] unto you all the counsel of God.

The word counsel above is the greek word

boulē and means:

counsel, purpose

This tells us that incorporated in Pauls declaration of the Gospel of Gods Grace, He did not fail to make known Gods Purpose:
boulePaul's is the result of determination as in acts 2:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Now, that word counsel is used in the context of Predestination to the Ephesians eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This is important, because in Acts 20, it is the elders of Ephesus whom He is speaking to regarding the preaching of the Gospel of Grace unto them and not shunning to make known all the counsel of God therein.

Acts 20:

16For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

17And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

So, its safe to conclude, that what Paul was rehearsing in His epistle to the Ephesians, is a recap of what He preached to them as the Gospel of Gods Grace, of which the counsel of predestination is made known eph 1:11


, acts 20:27

So I believe its a mistake not to preach the whole counsel of God in Preaching the Gospel of Gods Grace to sinners in evangelism, Paul did it !

Now debating it is something different, but to initially present it in Gospel Preaching, and leaving the results to God, is acceptable, and this shows that Predestination and Election are Key Truths in the Preaching of the Gospel of Gods Grace, for Election to salvation itself is by Grace rom 11:


5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for[Salvation]; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

You be the Judge, how can one Preach the Gospel of the Grace of God, and omit the doctrine of the election of Grace and predestination ? Paul did not.

 

[smaller]

Wow! I go away for a few hours and the thread has run amuck. While there is much I wish to comment on since I was last here I will confine myself to those posts that addressed me directly. The atonement of Christ is the very foundation of the Gospel message. If you are wrong in your foundation you are wrong on all you build upon it. I spent many years actually laying foundations for high rise buildings. Just a 1/4 inch off on the foundation translates to 10 feet very quickly as you build up from it. Christ is the foundation of the Gospel, 1Cor. 3:11. If you are off on Him everything you build is off. That is why it so very important to get the foundation correct.

Another TOTAL religious fallacy.

As to your 'construction life' I also have spent my entire life in construction and NEVER ONCE in several thousand projects was there A PERFECT FOUNDATION by ANYONE.

One can not CHANGE our FOUNDATION in Christ.

He IS Perfect. We cannot 'screw' that up or 'correct' that foundation.

IF one wants to 'build upon' Christ they begin with A PERFECT FOUNDATION that is not of 'us.'

Many a 'church' believes that they MUST have PERFECT DOCTRINE. That too is A RELIGIOUS FALLACY and NOT POSSIBLE. There are NO PERFECT DOCTRINES. Such things do not exist. These are ALL constructs of MAN with PARTIAL SIGHT.

Churches have been 'correcting' and 'improving' their doctrines perpetually, SHOWING that they were NOT PERFECT to begin with.

No doctrine can CONVEY the THINGS OF GOD which are ETERNAL and MUST originate from HIM.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

Romans 2:
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

Exactly. Thanks bud.

We are lead to do our OWN repentance through the kindness of God, as displayed in his Word.

 

[smaller]

Calvinists and Reformed cannot possibly be TRUE on one simple measure and it is the THREAD TOPIC matter.

Calvinists and Reformed openly believe and promote that GOD does NOT love the predestined people that are supposedly DAMNED by God to burn alive forever.

but...they admittedly DO NOT KNOW who these people may be or even if THEY themselves ARE SAVED, therefore they reach out WITH THEIR DOCTRINES to see if there are ANY TAKERS, and when they GET ONE they claim that person MAY be 'an elect.'

There is a larger command that EVERY believer HAS, and that is to love our neighbors as ourselves. Those who claim to be believers and DO NOT DO THAT are NOT SHEEP. God has in fact RAISED UP the GOAT in those who do NOT and parades that GOAT around for others to SEE.

Some in the 'reformed' camps even go so far as to say that GOD burning people alive forever in fire IS LOVE.

Yeah, sure, right.

All such conveyors are in reality INSTRUMENTS of DEATH to their neighbors IN THEIR HEARTS. They have produced the EXACT OPPOSITE of the 'the requirement' to our neighbors that comes with BELIEF.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[smaller]

Exactly. Thanks bud.

We are lead to do our OWN repentance through the kindness of God, as displayed in his Word.

You did read that scripture, right?

By the LAW comes the 'knowledge' that we fall short and are SINNERS.

Without that conveyance, that LIVING WORD proving that matter WITHIN us, we do not KNOW anything of GOD or of our NEED to repent.

Repentence ORIGINATES with GODS WORDS and it is HIS WORD that produces REPENTENCE within us.

I do not claim that WE as PEOPLE do not produce A REFLECTION.

I can not take 'credit' for reflecting what GOD has placed in my heart. That doesn't compute for me. I produced nothing but A GIVEN REFLECTION.

You can pat yerself for having one, but in fact ALL have such, to the good or to the bad.

Only the PERFECT REFLECTIONS will 'survive' in the end and move on into ETERNITY and that ALSO must originate FROM HIM.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

I would disagree with you about predestination, for it has its mention in the whole counsel of the Gospel declaration.

Oooooh. Do we have a hyper / High calvanistic split happening? Would you like us to leave you alone for a while so you can sort your scrambled philosophy out?

Paul stated that in Preaching the Gospel of Gods Grace, that He shunned not to make known all the counsel of God.You be the Judge, how can one Preach the Gospel of the Grace of God, and omit the doctrine of the election of Grace and predestination ? Paul did not.

Show me where Paul states that a specific group are predestined to be God's sheep.

 

[Strangelove]

You did read that scripture, right?

Huh? Yeah I read the verse and 'reflected' what it meant to me. Lolz, I thought we were actually on the same team for a second there....a foolish thought.

Of course everything originates from God. But that does'nt negate our invlovment in the process.

A butcher can sell you a slab of meat but you make the Spag Bol. at home. Would you say you bought Spag Bol. from the butcher? No.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Romans 2:
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

rom 2:


4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?




This verse needs to be rightly divided. Its speaking to the jews in the context. Now, within the jewish nation there was as Paul states later, a remnant according to the election of grace rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And, so, Gods Longsuffering and patience to them [ the election of grace in national Israel] would issue in their salvation 2 pet 3:

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Gods Longsuffering to His elect is Salvation, of which Repentance is given acts 5:


31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Now, the non elect of Israel [The rest[, Gods Longsuffering towards them was to fit them as vessels of wrath for destruction



Rom 9:

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now, A Sovereign God was not trying to lead the vessels of wrath into repentance. He tolerated them as He lead His elect into repentance.