A
Alabaster
Guest
No. Jesus fulfilled the will and purposes of God completely. Perhaps you need to understand sovereignty.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
-
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
No. Jesus fulfilled the will and purposes of God completely. Perhaps you need to understand sovereignty.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
And the Pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hands !
Isa 53:
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Upon making His soul an offering for sin, it is declared of Jesus Christ, the risen Lord, that the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
The word pleasure here is the hebrew word:
chephets and it means:
delight, pleasure
a) delight
b) desire, longing
c) the good pleasure
d) that in which one takes delight
So it can read Isa 53:
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the desire of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The next word is prosper, what does that word mean ? Its the hebrew word:
tsalach and it means:
Qal) to rush
2) to advance, prosper, make progress, succeed, be profitable
a) (Qal) to prosper
b) (Hiphil)
1) to make prosperous, bring to successful issue, cause to prosper
2) to show or experience prosperity, prosper
It also means effected as in 2 chron 7:
11Thus Solomon finished the house of the LORD, and the king's house: and all that came into Solomon's heart to make in the house of the LORD, and in his own house, he prosperously effected.
So it could read Isa 53:
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the desire of the LORD shall be prosperously effected in his hand.
Now with that in mind, 1 tim 2 4 reads :
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Should not this desire of God's be prosperously effected by Jesus Christ.
Now, is Jesus Christ successful in effecting this desire of His Father ? That all men will be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth ?
If not, then scripture lies in isa 53 :10..
Isa 53:
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Upon making His soul an offering for sin, it is declared of Jesus Christ, the risen Lord, that the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
The word pleasure here is the hebrew word:
chephets and it means:
delight, pleasure
a) delight
b) desire, longing
c) the good pleasure
d) that in which one takes delight
So it can read Isa 53:
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the desire of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
The next word is prosper, what does that word mean ? Its the hebrew word:
tsalach and it means:
Qal) to rush
2) to advance, prosper, make progress, succeed, be profitable
a) (Qal) to prosper
b) (Hiphil)
1) to make prosperous, bring to successful issue, cause to prosper
2) to show or experience prosperity, prosper
It also means effected as in 2 chron 7:
11Thus Solomon finished the house of the LORD, and the king's house: and all that came into Solomon's heart to make in the house of the LORD, and in his own house, he prosperously effected.
So it could read Isa 53:
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the desire of the LORD shall be prosperously effected in his hand.
Now with that in mind, 1 tim 2 4 reads :
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Should not this desire of God's be prosperously effected by Jesus Christ.
Now, is Jesus Christ successful in effecting this desire of His Father ? That all men will be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth ?
If not, then scripture lies in isa 53 :10..
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Is it Gods will and purpose for none to perish or no ?
Oats
Member
God says in the Bible that he would save all people but they wont repent...
You were rude to me a while back...so if you can't respond with respect I'm flagging you...got it?
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Do you understand post 362 ? Can you discuss whats being said there ?
Oats
Member
When the scholars translated the scriptures I'm pretty sure they meant to put what it says...
You pick and choose what you want to believe
God desires all men to be saved.
You chose the definition you wanted...
You're wrong man...wrong.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Does it say or not that the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His Hand ?
I already presented an exegesis of 1 Tim 2:1-8. There are several other verses that are not read in their context. 2 Peter 3:9 is another common one. In 2 Peter 3:9, many Arminian/Pelagian readers assume that the text speaks of "all men without exception." This interpretation can be shown to be faulty by looking at the word "your sake" in the translation posted above. The interpretive question is who is the "your" in "your sake?" Does the word "your" speak of every man without exception, or does it speak of the readers to whom Peter sent the epistle of 2 Peter (Christians)?
In the context (of course the key is context) in the first verse of the chapter it reads....
(ASV) 2Pe 3:1 This is now, beloved, the second epistle that I write unto you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by putting you in remembrance;
Peter calls his readers "beloved." A term that is never used of "all men without exception" but it is used of the saved, the Church, the brethren.
In the address of the epistle Peter states he is writing to those of "like precious faith."
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:
So then, in 2 Peter 3:9, Peter says God is being patient for "your sake." He is talking about the believers as the "your sake" and not "all men without exception" as the theme of this thread states.
In the context, even in verse 8, the term "beloved" is used...
2Pe 3:8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The context really makes it quite impossible to read verse 9 as referring to "all men without exception." The term "your sake" in verse 9 quite clearly is referring to the same group as "beloved" in verse 8.
Quoting 1 Tim 2:4 or 2 Peter 3:9 to affirm that Christ died for "all men without exception" is yet again examples of traditions getting in the way of clear exegesis. It is an easy mistake to make. It s a natural thing to read our traditions into passages, rather then to be careful to check our traditions against the grammar and context of each passage. It is difficult to check ones own tradition against the scriptures, but the honest Christian will always do exactly that.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
If scripture states that by Christ giving His soul for sin, He shall prolong His days [resurrection and Ascension to the Throne] and the pleasure [ will, desire] of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
Then if its the Fathers will or desire for none to perish , that all be saved, that all come to repentance, then Christ is responsible to make that successful. If He does not, then he has failed His Fathers will.
Last edited by a moderator:
A
Alabaster
Guest
Yes it is God's will that none perish. However, God has created man with his own sovereign will, and He respects it.
A
Alabaster
Guest
What you suggest is from a poor grasp of the truth about who god is and who man is...and borders on blasphemy, IMHO, of course.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Its Jesus Christ the risen now living Saviour to save all whom His Father wants saved, if that does not occur, He has failed His Fathers will.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Blasphemy : That thinking sounds much like this 2 thess 2:
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
A
Alabaster
Guest
That is your opinion, but it isn't the truth. Jesus has never failed His Father. Why would you, a mere human, place any blame on Jesus the Son of God? Look to yourself and see how feeble a statement that is...and how it is a self-exalting judgment of God Himself.
Alabaster, just to get a clarification, when you use the phrase "sovereign will" are you speaking of God or man?
A
Alabaster
Guest
Man has been created with a sovereign will of his own.
Drew
Member
This line of argument only works if it is the case that everything that God "desires" will most assuredly come to pass.
I suggest that this is not really a position that can be defended Biblically. And further, I suggest it gets its purchase from an image of God that has its origin in the general public square, not the Bible.
Interesting, and would man also be sovereign in heaven as well as on earth?
Vic C.
Member
Well I have been looking in on this topic from time to time and had no inclination to chime in, but Mondar's question sparked my interest.
So I'd like to ask a question too, for the purpose of clarification ( I have no desire to debate either way):
The word sovereign in your quote is an adjective to the word, will.
Here are Webster's definitions:
Sovereign - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
So, is it your experience that man's will is sovereign or is that explicitly found in scripture? Also, does the Bible indicate that God indeed respects this will in light of Rom 2:11 and other passages like it?