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The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

This line of argument only works if it is the case that everything that God "desires" will most assuredly come to pass.

I suggest that this is not really a position that can be defended Biblically. And further, I suggest it gets its purchase from an image of God that has its origin in the general public square, not the Bible.

Jesus Christ is responsible to save all whom the Father wants to be saved. If all whom The Father is not saved, then Jesus Failed and The Fathers Purpose Failed.

Jn 6:


39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Now, " That I shall lose nothing" means not one should perish, but enjoy everlasting life.

The word will in Jn 6 39 is the greek word:Thelema:

what one wishes or has determined shall be done

a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ

b) of what God wishes to be done by us

1) commands, precepts

2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure

The Fathers, will, wish, determination, desire is that Jesus does not let perish any that He has given Him.

That would include those of 2 pet 3:

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If any of them Perish, Christ has Failed ! And Gods Purpose Failed !
 
Man has been created with a sovereign will of his own.

Yeah, this looks real sovereign to me:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

NO man can REMOVE what GOD HAS PUT UPON THEM:

Romans 11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

How any believer can contrive FREEWILL out of that is no mystery. Freewill is A TOOL to BLAME the BLINDED. I consider it somewhat demonic in nature to do that.

IF any person is ELECTED in this present life BY GOD to see and hear, they will SEE and HEAR.

Otherwise THAT SPIRIT of DISOBEDIENCE to the Gospel is INTENTIONALLY left in place BY GOD.

Matthew 12:
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

Those who HEAR, hear WITHIN their hearts.

s
 
alab:

That is your opinion, but it isn't the truth. Jesus has never failed His Father.

If He Fails to save all whom His Father wants Him to be saved , yes He failed.

Of course I know He has saved all for whom the Father wants saved.
 
Interesting, and would man also be sovereign in heaven as well as on earth?

Where would the word of God attest to such a thing as that? Pose your questions to the Lord. Discover the answers in Scripture.
 
You the one promoting a god and jesus that fails in accomplishing their will.

My God has never failed, nor will He. Only people do---they fail God and fail to say yes to His will.

Please show by your words that you respect God. There are many anti-God forums that would love to agree with you that God fails.
 
Jesus Christ is responsible to save all whom the Father wants to be saved. If all whom The Father is not saved, then Jesus Failed and The Fathers Purpose Failed.

Jn 6:


39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Now, " That I shall lose nothing" means not one should perish, but enjoy everlasting life.

The word will in Jn 6 39 is the greek word:Thelema:

what one wishes or has determined shall be done

a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ

b) of what God wishes to be done by us

1) commands, precepts

2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure

The Fathers, will, wish, determination, desire is that Jesus does not let perish any that He has given Him.

That would include those of 2 pet 3:

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If any of them Perish, Christ has Failed ! And Gods Purpose Failed !

Oops! This verse clearly shows that the son of perdition was given, yet lost.:study

Jhn 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 
Oops! This verse clearly shows that the son of perdition was given, yet lost.:study

Jhn 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

If any the Father wants not to perish, perish, then Christ has failed the Father. Now is their scriptural evidence that the Father did not want the son of perdition not to perish ?
 
alab:

My God has never failed,


Sure He has if there are people He does not want to perish, and they perish any way. He supposedly did everything He could do to prevent it, and it happened any way, thats failure.

Now my God and Saviour has not failed, because all they desire to be saved are saved.
 
You said this:
The Fathers, will, wish, determination, desire is that Jesus does not let perish any that He has given Him.
This verse proves you wrong. Perhaps you misspoke?:biglol
Jhn 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 
If any the Father wants not to perish, perish, then Christ has failed the Father. Now is their scriptural evidence that the Father did not want the son of perdition not to perish ?

That is plainly ridiculous. Millions of people will fail to receive salvation---it is their failure and not God's. Turn your thinking around to the reality of that.
 
alab:



Sure He has if there are people He does not want to perish, and they perish any way. He supposedly did everything He could do to prevent it, and it happened any way, thats failure.

Now my God and Saviour has not failed, because all they desire to be saved are saved.

The failure is in your inability to grasp that God never fails. He has provided the Way to salvation and life, but the failure is in people's rejection of that free gift.

God has given every human being a sovereign will that has the right to choose Him or reject Him. He will never violate that will.
 
The failure is in your inability to grasp that God never fails.


The God you are proclaiming, desires all men to be saved, He is not willing that any should perish, yet many He desires and will that for, will perish, Then He is a Failure.
 
rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Its plain from scripture that Christ did not die for everyone without exception, for the simple reason that His death produces positive results or effects.

Christ obedience, as in His obedience unto death[The cross] Phil 2:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

This obedience, the death of the cross, without a doubt, without the possibility of failure, shall make many righteous ! Its just as sure as the disobedience of one made many sinners.

And this apart from from their obedience being a condition, because, it is by the obedience of ONE, that ONE being Christ Jesus, that they shall be made righteous.

The word righteous here is the greek word:

dikaios:

righteous, observing divine laws

in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

innocent, faultless, guiltless

approved of or acceptable of God

used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life

All these definitions are applied to those whom Christ died and made righteous by His obedience.

Notice in our text rom 5 19, that by the obedience of one, NOT TWO

This Testimony can only be received by God given Faith, because 99.9 % of religious people cannot believe they can be righteous before God without personal obedience of some kind, in other words, in their mind, one can only be made righteous by the obedience of two, Christ and theirs. Its odd because we were made sinners by only one without yet personal disobedience ! The effects of Adam is given more respect than the effects of Christ, man serves the creature more than the creator !

This means that a person of God given Faith understands that their being constituted righteous is apart from their obedience of Faith. Did you know that Faith in Christ is obedience ? Lets look at rom 1:

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

16:26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Now, is Faith obedience ever required ? Yes, its required in order to make manifest that one has been made righteous by the Obedience of ONE , Jesus Christ the righteous, The one who makes righteous.

BUT it obedience is not required to be made or constituted righteous .

If you or even myself believe today that we are or was made righteous by Faith in Christ, the obedience of faith, then we are deceived, because that is rejecting, disregarding the Truth of scripture that many shall be made righteous by the obedience of ONE , that Being Jesus Christ.

If we add to His obedience our obedience of Faith, we add our obedience to His, we therefore claim we are made righteous by the obedience of Two instead of one, which contradicts the word of Truth.

Those Jesus died for shall be made righteous. The word made is the greek word:

kathistēmi and means:

to constitute, to render, make, cause to be

to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be

Christ obedience will show us to be righteous because of imputed righteousness, it will also cause us to be righteous.
This is confirmed by Heb 5:

9And being made perfect [Unto Death], he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; or those obeying Him.

If we are obeying Christ, it proves that He hath or is the author of that obedience, its the fruit of His obedience !
 
rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I'm curious, sbg, the "many be made righteous", in the second part of the verse, is concluded to NOT mean "everyone", right? Does the "many were made sinners" in the first part conclude that not everyone that ever lived were actually "sinners"?

But in a way, I think I have to agree with you. From history, it seems clear that most people were never "in god's will" to be saved. And if there really IS a "predestination", that does seem like only those "predestined" were even wanted.
 
The God you are proclaiming, desires all men to be saved, He is not willing that any should perish, yet many He desires and will that for, will perish, Then He is a Failure.

That is a blasphemic statement born out of ignorance of who God is and what His plan for mankind is. Anyone who knows God cannot say such a vile thing.

Seeing as you reject correction, I shall leave you to your deception, and I pray that God will get hold of you by the collar and turn you around, and turn your own failure into success...it is your choice.
Otherwise, you will discover none too soon how much of a success God is, and what miserable failures men are when they reject Him and His truth.
 
deavon:

I'm curious, sbg, the "many be made righteous", in the second part of the verse, is concluded to NOT mean "everyone", right?

Is everyone without exception made righteous ?
 
That is a blasphemic statement born out of ignorance of who God is and what His plan for mankind is. Anyone who knows God cannot say such a vile thing.

Seeing as you reject correction, I shall leave you to your deception, and I pray that God will get hold of you by the collar and turn you around, and turn your own failure into success...it is your choice. Otherwise, you will discover none too soon how much of a success God is, and what miserable failures men are when they reject Him and His truth.

You the one proclaiming a God who fails of His Purpose, and Counts his creatures will just as Sovereign as his own. Thats your God not mine. Thats why He has failed.
 
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