The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[mondar]

False. Why do you continually ignore the fact that one must believe in him and his death and resurrection to be saved?

Free, I would also be one who believes that Christ did not die for all men without exception. Of course I come from a more reformation point of view. Historically, it was in the reformation that the concept of "sola fide" or "faith alone" came to be used.

While SBG and I have things we disagree on, I firmly agree with him that the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration is the source of man's faith. God chose to regenerate only a specifically chosen group of people. He did not regenerate, or change the nature of people world wide. The right of the HS to preform the ministry of regeneration was won by Christ at the cross. More then this, there is the High Priestly ministry of Christ (see Hebrews). He is the "intercessor" of the New Covenant. As the High Priest he comes into the Holy of Holies, then presents his blood on a heavenly altar. And what happens? Would you say a provision is made for salvation? Does Christs blood only make people savable? Such a low view of the merit of Christs blood is hard to swollow. When Christ presented his blood on the heavenly altar and the Malchezedekian High Priest, it saved people to the uttermost. To say that he presented his blood for the whole world does one of two things, it either makes you a universalist, or it denigrates the blood of Christ to the status that it saves nobody, but only makes people savable.

This is why Hebrew 9:28 says so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

Christ saved all those for whom he died. Without a doubt, you have an issue in your theology in that Christ death is insufficient for salvation because those for whom he died were not all saved.

Free, I agree that the human requirement for justification is human faith. However, that human faith is given to the HS regenerates those chosen from the foundation of the world. The difference between us is not what you say----- that I don't believe that "one must believe." Absolutely I agree, but that does not mean the HS gives regeneration to all men without exception. That does not mean Christ is the intercessor for all men without exception. That does not mean that Christ died for all men without exception. That does not mean that the effects and blessings of the atonement (the crosswork of Christ) were made for all men without exception.

Do you believe that regeneration is universal? Do you believe Christs intercessory high priestly ministry fails?

 

[savedbygrace57]

False. Why do you continually ignore the fact that one must believe in him and his death and resurrection to be saved?

Why do you ignore that the many Christ died for, which was His obedience, shall make many righteous, which means they become believers..rom 5:19

so by the obedience [ His death phil 2:8] of one [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.

The word righteous is the greek word
dikaios :

righteous, observing divine laws

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

One of the commands of God is to believe on the name of His Son according to 1 jn 3:

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

So Christ obedience, His death, is what causes believers in Him..

I have shown this truth several times already, i cannot help it if its not believed, Christ death is effectual, it saves, it makes believers out of unbelievers..

 

[savedbygrace57]

mondar

Free, I agree that the human requirement for justification is human faith.

You were speaking truth up unto this statement, which tore down all you previously said. There is not human requirement for Justification by Faith..

God does it, period Gal 3:

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[francisdesales]

False. Why do you continually ignore the fact that one must believe in him and his death and resurrection to be saved?

Because he is trying to push the reply count on this ludicrous thread to 1000...

Has he said anything original after post 50?

 

[Alabaster]

Those of you who believe the false teaching that Jesus Christ died for all without exception, believe that there are those Christ died for that will go to hell, indicating that its not the cross of Christ, His death that saves one from being lost. You are saying that it is not His death that makes the difference of who is saved or lost..

We are saved by faith! No faith? No life.

 

[Free]

And what happens? Would you say a provision is made for salvation? Does Christs blood only make people savable? Such a low view of the merit of Christs blood is hard to swollow. When Christ presented his blood on the heavenly altar and the Malchezedekian High Priest, it saved people to the uttermost. To say that he presented his blood for the whole world does one of two things, it either makes you a universalist, or it denigrates the blood of Christ to the status that it saves nobody, but only makes people savable.

This is why Hebrew 9:28 says so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

Christ saved all those for whom he died. Without a doubt, you have an issue in your theology in that Christ death is insufficient for salvation because those for whom he died were not all saved.

Free, I agree that the human requirement for justification is human faith. However, that human faith is given to the HS regenerates those chosen from the foundation of the world. The difference between us is not what you say----- that I don't believe that "one must believe." Absolutely I agree, but that does not mean the HS gives regeneration to all men without exception. That does not mean Christ is the intercessor for all men without exception. That does not mean that Christ died for all men without exception. That does not mean that the effects and blessings of the atonement (the crosswork of Christ) were made for all men without exception.

Do you believe that regeneration is universal? Do you believe Christs intercessory high priestly ministry fails?

To say that my position somehow means that "Christs intercessory high priestly ministry fails," that it is "a low view of the merit of Christs blood" or that "it either makes you a universalist, or it denigrates the blood of Christ to the status that it saves nobody," is false, on all counts.

Scripture is clear that we have a choice to make, to believe in who Christ is and in his death and resurrection for our reconciliation to God, or we reject Jesus. His blood paves the way, it provides the means by which those who choose to be saved, can actually be saved. This in no way whatsoever lessens Jesus's sacrifice.

If we think he died for only a few, then, just as we have seen on the numerous pages in this thread, we can no longer take passages at their face value and must change the meanings of words. This thread has been an exercise in eisegesis and proof-texting.

 

[mondar]

To say that my position somehow means that "Christs intercessory high priestly ministry fails," that it is "a low view of the merit of Christs blood" or that "it either makes you a universalist, or it denigrates the blood of Christ to the status that it saves nobody," is false, on all counts.

Nope, true on all accounts.

RE:------Christs high priestly intercessory ministry (Hebrews)... If Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant for all men without exception, and some for whom he mediates go to hell, then his mediatorship failed. How can you say his mediatorship of the Covenant was successful when they are in hell?
---------Low view....... In the Calvinistic view, anyone under the blood, anyone for whom Christ died, is saved to the uttermost. You cannot get any more saved then to be under the blood. If all men without exception are under the blood, and some go to hell, how is that not a lower view?
--------- The last option is universalism. The universalist will agree with me that all for whom Christ died to save, they are saved. He will agree with you that he died for the whole world, therefore, all men are saved. Some universalists take a high view of the blood of Christ in that it saves all who are under the blood, it saves all for whom Christ died.

Scripture is clear that we have a choice to make, to believe in who Christ is and in his death and resurrection for our reconciliation to God, or we reject Jesus. His blood paves the way, it provides the means by which those who choose to be saved, can actually be saved. This in no way whatsoever lessens Jesus's sacrifice.

It is of course, disappointing to see such straw men (that Calvinists do not believe in choice). It always amazes me that others repeated what you just said over and over again. No matter how many times I demonstrate what we believe, no one seems to ever actually believe that Calvinists believe we make a choice. What can I say? I can correct people until the end of the world, and this will not change.

Concerning "choice." Yes, we make a choice. We make a choice according to our nature. There is the issue! Non-Calvinists refuse to accept that there is such a thing called "human nature, sin nature, adamic nature." The word "nature" is simply not in your vocabulary. So yes, we make a choice according to our evil nature, until God changes our nature. Then, yes, we choose good. So yes, we choose. Your denial that Calvinists are saying we choose is of course a straw man.

The astonishing attack upon Calvinists is that they deny salvation is by faith. I mean wow, we Calvinists raised the banner of "Faith alone" nearly 50 years before Arminius, or some other free willer could even read (counting only those who claim protestantism).

I also notice you said "his blood paves the way." Is this not a denial that his blood absolutely saves to the uttermost? His blood merely paves the way? You don't see that I take a far higher view of the power of Christs blood to save? I do think it merely "paves the way." I think it saves absolutely, completely, and without fail.

If we think he died for only a few, then, just as we have seen on the numerous pages in this thread, we can no longer take passages at their face value and must change the meanings of words. This thread has been an exercise in eisegesis and proof-texting.

I agree that this thread as been an exercise in prooftexting. However, a text is presented that you think might deny limited atonement, and I present counter exegesis, it is ignored. Either that, or some cheap debating trick is used. Some will quote 25 texts, and they are all out of context. But how can I address each and every one of them.

If you want to go to the scripture, lets do it. I would challenge you to provide one text and only one text. I will do the same. Then we can provide counter exegesis on that text. Fair enough?

 

[Oats]

Why do you ignore that the many Christ died for, which was His obedience, shall make many righteous, which means they become believers..rom 5:19

so by the obedience [ His death phil 2:8] of one [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.

The word righteous is the greek word
dikaios :

righteous, observing divine laws

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

One of the commands of God is to believe on the name of His Son according to 1 jn 3:

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

So Christ obedience, His death, is what causes believers in Him..

I have shown this truth several times already, i cannot help it if its not believed, Christ death is effectual, it saves, it makes believers out of unbelievers..

how do you know you're included in the group the Jesus came to save?

 

[Sinthesis]

how do you know you're included in the group the Jesus came to save?

Rom 5:6 - For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.​

So actually Christ died for everyone but Himself! Which in a perverse way, as Jesus was both man and God, proves the thread title correct; Jesus is the exception!:shocked

:rolling

 

[Free]

Nope, true on all accounts.

RE:------Christs high priestly intercessory ministry (Hebrews)... If Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant for all men without exception, and some for whom he mediates go to hell, then his mediatorship failed. How can you say his mediatorship of the Covenant was successful when they are in hell?
---------Low view....... In the Calvinistic view, anyone under the blood, anyone for whom Christ died, is saved to the uttermost. You cannot get any more saved then to be under the blood. If all men without exception are under the blood, and some go to hell, how is that not a lower view?
--------- The last option is universalism. The universalist will agree with me that all for whom Christ died to save, they are saved. He will agree with you that he died for the whole world, therefore, all men are saved. Some universalists take a high view of the blood of Christ in that it saves all who are under the blood, it saves all for whom Christ died.

You are taking things out of context and ignoring portions of what I stated.

It is of course, disappointing to see such straw men (that Calvinists do not believe in choice). It always amazes me that others repeated what you just said over and over again. No matter how many times I demonstrate what we believe, no one seems to ever actually believe that Calvinists believe we make a choice. What can I say? I can correct people until the end of the world, and this will not change.

Because ultimately, with Calvinism, there is no choice in whether or not one is saved. That is the logical conclusion of those who follow Calvin's theology.

Concerning "choice." Yes, we make a choice. We make a choice according to our nature. There is the issue! Non-Calvinists refuse to accept that there is such a thing called "human nature, sin nature, adamic nature." The word "nature" is simply not in your vocabulary. So yes, we make a choice according to our evil nature, until God changes our nature. Then, yes, we choose good. So yes, we choose. Your denial that Calvinists are saying we choose is of course a straw man.

Speaking of straw men....The whole point is that, according to Calvinism, we have no choice in whether we follow Jesus or not, whether or not we are ultimately saved. Not to mention that even Calvinists still make decisionsbased on their fleshly desires at least some of the time. There is no straw man on my part.

I also notice you said "his blood paves the way." Is this not a denial that his blood absolutely saves to the uttermost? His blood merely paves the way? You don't see that I take a far higher view of the power of Christs blood to save? I do think it merely "paves the way." I think it saves absolutely, completely, and without fail.

No, it is no such denial. In context, I was clear that there is no salvation without Jesus's death but that one is not saved if they do not choose to believe and follow Jesus.

I may as well argue that with Calvinism, no one has a choice in whether they are saved or not, so it becomes God forcing himself on those whom he chooses. But love which is forced isn't love at all, it's rape. Agreed?

 

[Oats]

Rom 5:6 - For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.​

So actually Christ died for everyone but Himself! Which in a perverse way, as Jesus was both man and God, proves the thread title correct; Jesus is the exception!:shocked

:rolling

well,

....

how do you know your saved?

anyone can be saved...

though not all will be

 

[elijah23]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.


So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

I think we all pass on to the resurrection when we die. That is not heaven.

Heaven is our state of mind when we accept Jesus as our Savior.

I think everyone will sooner or later accept Jesus as their Savior.

 

[mondar]

You are taking things out of context and ignoring portions of what I stated.

How did I take what you said out of context?

Because ultimately, with Calvinism, there is no choice in whether or not one is saved. That is the logical conclusion of those who follow Calvin's theology.

I still must say that the way you are representing Calvinism is a straw man. We get no choice on our sinful, human, rebellious nature. With that Calvinists would agree, but to say that we get no choice in whether we are saved or not, that is a misrepresentation. We absolutely get a choice and we all choose to rebel and not to be saved. But God changes the nature of some so that they choose to be saved.

So then, we don't choose our nature, but we do make choices of faith.

Do you know the difference between the nature of a person and the choices they make? They are not the same thing.

Speaking of straw men....The whole point is that, according to Calvinism, we have no choice in whether we follow Jesus or not, whether or not we are ultimately saved. Not to mention that even Calvinists still make decisionsbased on their fleshly desires at least some of the time. There is no straw man on my part.

Very much I see you misrepresenting Calvinists. You might do it in malice, and you might honestly believe you understand what Calvinists teach, but you do not.

I am not sure what you mean by "Calvinists still make decisions based upon their fleshly desires?"
--- If by this you mean that the Calvinists understanding of salvation is a fleshly desire, I would disagree strongly. There is no doctrine more self abasing then Calvinism. Calvinists believe that from birth, even from conception we were born in iniquity (Psalm 51). Our rebellion is so deep that we cannot change any more then a leopard can change its spots. (Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. ) On the other hand, you believe that man is not so rebellious. You believe that man is not so sinful.

It certainly takes less grace to save someone who already loves God and wants to be saved then to have to first change the nature of a rebel so that God can save him.

No, it is no such denial. In context, I was clear that there is no salvation without Jesus's death but that one is not saved if they do not choose to believe and follow Jesus.

Ahhh, but free, while you may believe that Christs shed blood is necessary for a person to be saved, you cannot say it is all that is needed. You must say that a person must first make a free will decision and accept this grace. Do you remember how you said "his blood paves the way." Can you not see your inferior view of the saving value of the blood of Christ. You are the one who said "his blood paves the way." And then you must tell me what must be added to the blood of Christ, that is our faith.

While I agree that faith is the human requirement for justification, I would never ever say "his blood paves the way." I would say his shed blood is all that is needed. Because of his blood, he changes our nature, and by this change of nature he provides us with the ability to have faith.

Free, so far you have not even come up to Arminianism. Without admitting a prevenient work of Grace you are still at pelagiansm.



I may as well argue that with Calvinism, no one has a choice in whether they are saved or not, so it becomes God forcing himself on those whom he chooses. But love which is forced isn't love at all, it's rape. Agreed?[/QUOTE]

 

[faithtransforms]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the children of the devil Jn 8:44 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

i will admit this is a sticky subject, and the verses you cite do create some ambiguity on the matter, but 1st John 2:2 says that Jesus was the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD!! when he says Jesus was the propitiation for "our sins" he is speaking to the elect, those who are already saved to whom he is writing. but when he says the WHOLE WORLD he's clearly speaking of EVERYONE ELSE!!! i'm not sure how the meaning of that verse could be any more obvious!!!

 

[Alabaster]

I think we all pass on to the resurrection when we die. That is not heaven.

No. Believers receive resurrection when Jesus comes for His Bride. Heaven is our home...wherever our Saviour is, whether it is where He is now, should we die before He comes, or whether on Earth in His physical Kingdom, should we live to see Him return.

The unsaved receive the second resurrection, which is to stand before God and account for their unbelief and sin.

Heaven is our state of mind when we accept Jesus as our Savior.

Not really. Heaven is a real place.

I think everyone will sooner or later accept Jesus as their Savior.

That is a false statement that the Word of God does not teach---ever.

 

[elijah23]

No. Believers receive resurrection when Jesus comes for His Bride. Heaven is our home...wherever our Saviour is, whether it is where He is now, should we die before He comes, or whether on Earth in His physical Kingdom, should we live to see Him return.

The unsaved receive the second resurrection, which is to stand before God and account for their unbelief and sin.



Not really. Heaven is a real place.



That is a false statement that the Word of God does not teach---ever.

I don’t think the Bible teaches us everything. We are to develop a personal relationship with the Lord, and then we learn some things directly from him.

 

[Alabaster]

I don’t think the Bible teaches us everything. We are to develop a personal relationship with the Lord, and then we learn some things directly from him.

Jesus doesnt teach us that everyone will make Him their Saviour. Scripture teaches it. If you believe He says that, then you are going against God's word, and hearing another's voice. Certainly the Lord is not a LIAR.

But who is?

John 8:44 NLT
For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[Scotth1960]

Ahaaaaa! Now we get to what you REALLY wanna talk about savedbygrace57. Ok buddy. I'm a fairly new Christian. I'll come along on this ride with you. I'm open minded. Maybe your right Let's see now...my obvious answers would be:

1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all
men through him might believe.​

All men.​

13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

All that believe. Any are capable of hearing the Gospel and believing. So thats all men. (those that are unable to know the Gospel due to disability or age, God knows the heart and will treat accordingly)​

3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:​

Unto ALL men. All who believe.​

2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​

Jesus seems to think that ALL men can be saved. Looks like the deciding factor is knowledge of the truth. The Gospel.​

Thats just a few verses I found real quick. I'm sure theres more. I think that would count as scriptural evidence.
​

Ok so.....The option to be His sheep is open to all men. Quite clearly the deciding factor is knowledge of the truth. The Gospel message. No? All men can make the choice to hear the Gospel and have faith.



Again....all men have the option to join the Church. It's a matter of coming to the faith.



No but....All men CAN be IF they hear the Gospel and believe. Jesus died for all men to have the OPPORTUNITY to be saved.

The Apostle Paul was a child of the devil. He came good didn't he?



No...because there is scriptural evidence for it. And its totally logical. Why wouldn't He die for all men?

Again...I'm all ears on your theory. Lets have a rebuttal on that then we can get going.

Doc.

Dear friends, It does say all men, that is, all people, men, women, children. All are called by God to believe. Few may believe, but that is another matter. All sinners are called everywhere by God to repent and believe the Gospel. The Gospel is the same for all sinners, as God is no respecter of persons. God wants to save all men (2 Peter 3:9), not just the elect. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
:nod

 

[Scotth1960]

How did I take what you said out of context?


I still must say that the way you are representing Calvinism is a straw man. We get no choice on our sinful, human, rebellious nature. With that Calvinists would agree, but to say that we get no choice in whether we are saved or not, that is a misrepresentation. We absolutely get a choice and we all choose to rebel and not to be saved. But God changes the nature of some so that they choose to be saved.

So then, we don't choose our nature, but we do make choices of faith.

Do you know the difference between the nature of a person and the choices they make? They are not the same thing.


Very much I see you misrepresenting Calvinists. You might do it in malice, and you might honestly believe you understand what Calvinists teach, but you do not.

I am not sure what you mean by "Calvinists still make decisions based upon their fleshly desires?"
--- If by this you mean that the Calvinists understanding of salvation is a fleshly desire, I would disagree strongly. There is no doctrine more self abasing then Calvinism. Calvinists believe that from birth, even from conception we were born in iniquity (Psalm 51). Our rebellion is so deep that we cannot change any more then a leopard can change its spots. (Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. ) On the other hand, you believe that man is not so rebellious. You believe that man is not so sinful.

It certainly takes less grace to save someone who already loves God and wants to be saved then to have to first change the nature of a rebel so that God can save him.


Ahhh, but free, while you may believe that Christs shed blood is necessary for a person to be saved, you cannot say it is all that is needed. You must say that a person must first make a free will decision and accept this grace. Do you remember how you said "his blood paves the way." Can you not see your inferior view of the saving value of the blood of Christ. You are the one who said "his blood paves the way." And then you must tell me what must be added to the blood of Christ, that is our faith.

While I agree that faith is the human requirement for justification, I would never ever say "his blood paves the way." I would say his shed blood is all that is needed. Because of his blood, he changes our nature, and by this change of nature he provides us with the ability to have faith.

Free, so far you have not even come up to Arminianism. Without admitting a prevenient work of Grace you are still at pelagiansm.



I may as well argue that with Calvinism, no one has a choice in whether they are saved or not, so it becomes God forcing himself on those whom he chooses. But love which is forced isn't love at all, it's rape. Agreed?

[/QUOTE]

Christ died for all people, that is the prevenient work of God's grace. God is no respecter of persons, He calls all men everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel. All men can believe the Gospel, because the Father is willing to draw all men to Himself in Christ Jesus. This comes about by the Holy Spirit, Who is given to all who ask Him. In Erie PA PS Calvinism is a great heresy and sin against the Body of Christ, the Church.
:nod

 

[mondar]

Christ died for all people, that is the prevenient work of God's grace. God is no respecter of persons, He calls all men everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel. All men can believe the Gospel, because the Father is willing to draw all men to Himself in Christ Jesus. This comes about by the Holy Spirit, Who is given to all who ask Him. In Erie PA PS Calvinism is a great heresy and sin against the Body of Christ, the Church.
:nod[/QUOTE]

What text would you use to show that prevenient grace is universal?

I am glad to hear you say that you think God is not a respecter of persons and calls all men everywhere to believe and repent. Certainly I agree with that. Of course what you are getting at here is the typical misrepresentation of Calvinism by those who are not Calvinists.

When you say "All men can believe the Gospel, because the Father is willing to draw all men to Himself in Christ Jesus." That statement is biblically incorrect. John 6:44 is a direct statement that "No man can come to me." I already know the text you would quote out of context. I will wait for you to quote the text you allude to before correcting you mistake.

Concerning Calvinism being a heresy, I have doubts you know what Calvinism is about, I have doubts you know what heresy is about. You seem more like just another mad dog fundamentalist sending anyone who disagrees with you to the fires of hell.