The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Scotth1960]

How did I take what you said out of context?


I still must say that the way you are representing Calvinism is a straw man. We get no choice on our sinful, human, rebellious nature. With that Calvinists would agree, but to say that we get no choice in whether we are saved or not, that is a misrepresentation. We absolutely get a choice and we all choose to rebel and not to be saved. But God changes the nature of some so that they choose to be saved.

So then, we don't choose our nature, but we do make choices of faith.

Do you know the difference between the nature of a person and the choices they make? They are not the same thing.


Very much I see you misrepresenting Calvinists. You might do it in malice, and you might honestly believe you understand what Calvinists teach, but you do not.

I am not sure what you mean by "Calvinists still make decisions based upon their fleshly desires?"
--- If by this you mean that the Calvinists understanding of salvation is a fleshly desire, I would disagree strongly. There is no doctrine more self abasing then Calvinism. Calvinists believe that from birth, even from conception we were born in iniquity (Psalm 51). Our rebellion is so deep that we cannot change any more then a leopard can change its spots. (Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. ) On the other hand, you believe that man is not so rebellious. You believe that man is not so sinful.

It certainly takes less grace to save someone who already loves God and wants to be saved then to have to first change the nature of a rebel so that God can save him.


Ahhh, but free, while you may believe that Christs shed blood is necessary for a person to be saved, you cannot say it is all that is needed. You must say that a person must first make a free will decision and accept this grace. Do you remember how you said "his blood paves the way." Can you not see your inferior view of the saving value of the blood of Christ. You are the one who said "his blood paves the way." And then you must tell me what must be added to the blood of Christ, that is our faith.

While I agree that faith is the human requirement for justification, I would never ever say "his blood paves the way." I would say his shed blood is all that is needed. Because of his blood, he changes our nature, and by this change of nature he provides us with the ability to have faith.

Free, so far you have not even come up to Arminianism. Without admitting a prevenient work of Grace you are still at pelagiansm.



I may as well argue that with Calvinism, no one has a choice in whether they are saved or not, so it becomes God forcing himself on those whom he chooses. But love which is forced isn't love at all, it's rape. Agreed?

[/QUOTE]

Friends, One Calvinist who talked with me on another website was very negative. He denied that human beings have free will. He said some people are predestined to hell. He was very uncharitable and negative. God forgive him.
I find Calvinism to be very unbiblical.
In Erie Scott Harrington

 

[Tailgunner]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the children of the devil Jn 8:44 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

As I write this, there are almost 650 replies to this post, so I haven't even attempted to read through the entire thread. I'll just make my reply to the original poster...


You're absolutely right. Jesus died for His own, and not for ANYONE else. Lest anyone think otherwise, consider this: If Christ died for everyone, why isn't everyone saved?

TG

 

[Alabaster]

When we are working with the unsaved, we can come to the point of asking them to receive Jesus, speaking about how Jesus died for them.

They could say no to Jesus.

Does that make what we told them a lie?

 

[Hitch]

The heathen will make his own god, the christian just wants to change him a little, make him a little nicer, a little less the Judge, more the great celestial grandpa.

 

[Tailgunner]

When we are working with the unsaved, we can come to the point of asking them to receive Jesus, speaking about how Jesus died for them.

They could say no to Jesus.

Does that make what we told them a lie?

I don't really know what it means to receive Jesus, Alabaster. When I came to faith, I begged Him to receive me. I didn't presume to do Him the favor of letting Him into my heart, I was just grateful He brought me to faith.

TG

 

[Hitch]

I don't really know what it means to receive Jesus, Alabaster. When I came to faith, I begged Him to receive me. I didn't presume to do Him the favor of letting Him into my heart, I was just grateful He brought me to faith.

TG

WHAM!​

 

[Free]

As I write this, there are almost 650 replies to this post, so I haven't even attempted to read through the entire thread. I'll just make my reply to the original poster...


You're absolutely right. Jesus died for His own, and not for ANYONE else. Lest anyone think otherwise, consider this: If Christ died for everyone, why isn't everyone saved?

TG

Jesus did die for everyone. This is why everyone isn't saved:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name, (HCSB)

Joh 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God. (HCSB)

Etc.

 

[Scotth1960]

I have not seen a verse yet that states that Jesus christ died for all men without exception.

Dear friend, I have not seen a verse yet that states that Jesus Christ did not die for all men.

 

[Alabaster]

I don't really know what it means to receive Jesus, Alabaster. When I came to faith, I begged Him to receive me. I didn't presume to do Him the favor of letting Him into my heart, I was just grateful He brought me to faith.

TG

You didn't answer the question.

Revelation 3:20 NLT
Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.

 

[mondar]

Jesus did die for everyone. This is why everyone isn't saved:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name, (HCSB)

Free, would you be willing to defend your position on each of the texts by looking at the context and vocabulary? Or are you just citing proof texts? Can we discuss the text of scripture?

In John 1:12 the term "to all" is the anticedent of "receive him." The term "all" in this verse cannot possibly mean the whole world. Otherwise you would be understanding the text to say that the whole world actually received Christ. John 1:12 is obviously limited to those of faith.

Joh 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life.

In John 3:15 the word "everyone" is again the anticedent of the word "believes." It is speaking of a limited group, only those who have faith.

I think your tradition is telling you that when you see the word "everyone" it must be referring to the whole world without any restrictions. Actually that is an impossible reading of the word everyone. In each of the verses you quote, the term everyone is limited to a specific group and never refers to the whole world.

Maybe an illustration would help.

If I said "everyone in this house will survive a nuclear attack." This does not mean the whole world will survive the nuclear holocaust. It speaks of a specific group, only those inside the house.

You are taking the word to refer to an indifinite group of people. Do you realize that there is a grammatical particle that would be used in any context speaking of an indefinite group of people. Every context you are citing uses definite pronouns to refer to a definite group of people.

Joh 3:16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

I always marvel at preachers when they preach real loud...... "for God so love the world that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER" and then they stop. Why end the verse at the term "whosoever?" I always wait for the next word "whosoever believeth." It speaks of a specific group of people to be saved and not all men without exception.

Free, I dont know what translation you are using but I think it does a great job. It goes back to the early Wycliff translation done in English long before the KJV. I think it is accurate and does an excellent job in using the word "everyone" and not the misunderstood term "whosoever." The english term "whosoever" can be understood in an indefinite sense. That would fit with the "whole world" idea, but that is not what is in the text. The term "pas" is not indefinite.

Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God. (HCSB)

Etc.

Verse 17----- I suspect in this verse you are looking at the term "might be saved." While again in english that might sound indefinite, in Greek it is not. The term "might be saved" is a verb. The verb has what is called a "passive voice." This simply means that the object of the verb is being acted upon rather then preforming the action. There is no indefinite concept being communicated by the passive voice of this verb. The idea of the verse is that the world is passively being saved by the one who does the action, God (through Him).

Free, I know some of what I write is going to be hard to understand. It involves greek grammar, and many do not have that background. Hopefully you have some English grammar background and can understand the use of the terms in the passages you quote. The vocabulary and grammar do not allow for an indefinite sense as you seem to be thinking. This makes your proof texts not the best texts because they actually limit the extent of the atonement to those who "believe." They do not create an indefinite atonement for the whole world.

 

[Hitch]

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 

[Scotth1960]

Jesus did die for everyone. This is why everyone isn't saved:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name, (HCSB)

Joh 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God. (HCSB)

Etc.

Friends, If Christ died for everyone, why is not everyone saved. 2 Peter 3:9 does say God wills all men to be saved. That should settle the controversy for all Bible-believing Christians. Some men do not have faith, the Bible says. If some, if any, are not saved, it is only because they don't believe in Christ. All are called to believe in Christ. Christ said, "Unless ye believe I AM He, ye shall die in your sins". Some men die in sin and perish because they did not believe on Christ. But that doesn't have to happen. God is capable of saving all. All can believe. It is just that some do not choose to believe in Christ. God does not force Himself upon any person. In Erie Scott H.

 

[Tailgunner]

You didn't answer the question.

Revelation 3:20 NLT
Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.

You're right, Alabaster. My apologies. Your question was that if we are working with the unsaved, and we tell them Jesus died for them, would we be lying to them?

I think we could well be, and that's why I wouldn't say that to anyone. What I would tell them is that Jesus said that "if anyone comes to Me, I will in no wise cast him out". I would let him/her know that if he comes to Jesus with a contrite heart, Jesus will save him, and count him as one of His own.

But just prior to that, Jesus said "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him". That's one of many reasons I don't think Jesus died for every single person.

Again, sorry for the quick answer I posted before, which really didn't answer your question. I didn't realize it before I saw this post.

TG

 

[Tailgunner]

Jesus did die for everyone. This is why everyone isn't saved:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name, (HCSB)

Joh 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God. (HCSB)

Etc.

Free, the only one of the verses you posted that I can't answer to is John 3:17. I have heard people who believe as I do give answers to that, but I consider them lackluster answers that don't satisfy. With that said, nothing else you've posted indicates in any way that Christ died for all.

If He died for someone who never believes in Him, then their sins were paid for on the cross, so at that point, why would God send them to hell? Just because they didn't believe? Well, yes, that's a sin. But then, by your reasoning, Jesus has already covered that sin by His work on the cross.

No, He can't have died for everyone, because by definition, everyone would be saved. ALL sin would already have been punished when Christ hung on the cross, and God, being just, COULDN'T punish an innocent person.

TG

 

[Tailgunner]

Friends, If Christ died for everyone, why is not everyone saved. 2 Peter 3:9 does say God wills all men to be saved. That should settle the controversy for all Bible-believing Christians. Some men do not have faith, the Bible says. If some, if any, are not saved, it is only because they don't believe in Christ. All are called to believe in Christ. Christ said, "Unless ye believe I AM He, ye shall die in your sins". Some men die in sin and perish because they did not believe on Christ. But that doesn't have to happen. God is capable of saving all. All can believe. It is just that some do not choose to believe in Christ. God does not force Himself upon any person. In Erie Scott H.

Scott, yes, God is capable of saving all. But we know He doesn't do that. Why?

TG

 

[Alabaster]

You're right, Alabaster. My apologies. Your question was that if we are working with the unsaved, and we tell them Jesus died for them, would we be lying to them?

I think we could well be, and that's why I wouldn't say that to anyone. What I would tell them is that Jesus said that "if anyone comes to Me, I will in no wise cast him out". I would let him/her know that if he comes to Jesus with a contrite heart, Jesus will save him, and count him as one of His own.

But just prior to that, Jesus said "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him". That's one of many reasons I don't think Jesus died for every single person.

Again, sorry for the quick answer I posted before, which really didn't answer your question. I didn't realize it before I saw this post.

TG

So, we lie to people when we tell them the gospel truth that Jesus died for them so that they could live forever?

 

[Alabaster]

Scott, yes, God is capable of saving all. But we know He doesn't do that. Why?

TG

Because people have to respond with belief.

 

[francisdesales]

Scott, yes, God is capable of saving all. But we know He doesn't do that. Why?

TG

God only will unite Himself to those who desire to unite themselves to Him...

Imagine a married couple. The husband absolutely despises the wife, but the wife loves the husband. Adores him. Would do anything for him. The husband's attitude would only become more miserable and would despise her even more as that selfless love continued. He would find any excuse to get out of that relationship...

There is only misery when one does not love the other. Man would despise a God Whom he did not love. And thus, the wrath of God is to allow man to receive what he desires, separation from Him.

Regards

 

[mondar]

God only will unite Himself to those who desire to unite themselves to Him...

Imagine a married couple. The husband absolutely despises the wife, but the wife loves the husband. Adores him. Would do anything for him. The husband's attitude would only become more miserable and would despise her even more as that selfless love continued. He would find any excuse to get out of that relationship...

There is only misery when one does not love the other. Man would despise a God Whom he did not love. And thus, the wrath of God is to allow man to receive what he desires, separation from Him.

Regards

Francis, I cannot help but suspect that you are not grasping reformed theology. Your statement, taken at face value would not be an issue with Reformed people. I understand that behind your statement you are assuming that man is not totally depraved and can choose God.

I am guessing most Reformed would agree with your statement but in their minds would say "yes, and when God regenerates the heart, that person wants to be united with God.

 

[mondar]

Because people have to respond with belief.

Alabaster, and when God regenerates, people will respond with faith. So then the question is why does he not give all men faith if he wants the saved.