The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Scotth1960]

What scripture states that Jesus Christ died for all mankind without exception ? I cannot take your word for it.

And whats funny and odd, all the scriptures you quoted, not one stated that Jesus christ died for all mankind without exception.

Dear savedbygrace, John 3:16 states the fact that Christ is given for the whole

world, because God so loved the world. That He gave His only begotten Son.

Your objection against unlimited atonement is over-ruled by the plain words of

Christ in Scripture. See also 1 John 2:2.

In Erie Scott

 

[Proverbs3/5]

Dear savedbygrace, John 3:16 states the fact that Christ is given for the whole

world, because God so loved the world. That He gave His only begotten Son.

Your objection against unlimited atonement is over-ruled by the plain words of

Christ in Scripture. See also 1 John 2:2.

In Erie Scott

It is just as simple as that! I don't see how it could take 54 pages on a thread to understand that.
I am sure those of us who are parents have said to our children "how many times do I have to tell you ..........". It should only take ONE time for God to tell his children something, but we are ALL sinful human beings and don't always listen to our Father the first time.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Dear savedbygrace, John 3:16 states the fact that Christ is given for the whole

world, because God so loved the world. That He gave His only begotten Son.

Your objection against unlimited atonement is over-ruled by the plain words of

Christ in Scripture. See also 1 John 2:2.

In Erie Scott

Which one of those scriptures state that Christ died for all men without exception ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

But then how would the Calvinists talk about how they got the special irresistable call and that God chose them because they're the elect... if Christ died for all men.. ?

that's no fun for a Calvinist.. all men being called the same way and that they're no different than anyone else... I don't believe that the Calvinists could embrace something so simple and scriptural..

Calvinists need to talk about how THEY are the ELECT, how that God chose THEM, how that their calling was special and effectual whereas God only calls others in a 'general' way.. lol..

There is nothing scriptural about Christ dying for all men without exception..Thats the biggest lie in the world..

 

[Eventide]

There is nothing scriptural about Christ dying for all men without exception..Thats the biggest lie in the world..

You mean like the lie that you're the elect, that God chose you and that your call was special and irresistable...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Thats why Isa says that the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His Hand Isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

In the Hand of the resurrected Christ, the Pleasure of the LORD [ His Father ] shall prosper, be of good success..

That means the Fathers desires shall prosper in His Hand. The word pleasure is the hebrew word:

chephets and means:

delight, pleasure

a) delight
b) desire, longing
c) the good pleasure
d) that in which one takes delight

That means, the Fathers desire for all men to be saved as in 1 tim 2:

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The word will here is the greek word

thelō and means:

to will, have in mind, intend

a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

b) to desire, to wish

c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing

d) to take delight in, have pleasure

Now notice the similarities in this definition and the one for pleasure in Isa 53:10 !

This Tells me that Christ should prosper in accomplishing the Fathers will in ensuring that the all men the Father desires to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth.

So thats the obligation of the resurrected Christ to see to it that its done. And scripture says He shall prosper, which word means:

Its the hebrew word

tsalach :

Qal) to rush

2) to advance, prosper, make progress, succeed, be profitable

a) (Qal) to prosper

b) (Hiphil)
1) to make prosperous, bring to successful issue, cause to prosper

2) to show or experience prosperity, prosper

In other words, none shall be lost as stated in Jn 6:

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

So, if any in 1 tim 2 4 do not be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth as the Father desires, then Christ has failed His Fathers will and not prospered in the pleasure of the Lord as stated in Isa 53 10..

My conclusion is that Christ has prospered, and all who perish in their sins, it just was not Gods will for them to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth...

So Christ dying for all without exception is a myth..

 

[Eventide]

Re: The Myth of saying that you're the elect...

So Christ dying for all without exception is a myth..

Well thank God you're one of the 'elect' ones who was called irresistably while the Lord just let all others perish.

That's so special !

 

[savedbygrace57]

eventide:

Well thank God you're one of the 'elect' ones

Thats exactly who I owe thanks, and not my freewill..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Another element of Truth that mitigates against the Myth of Christ having died for all men without exception, is God's accuracy in proportioning punishment to each individual as they deserve. Jesus says some will be beaten with many stripes, and some with few stripes as here lk 12:


45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Every man will be Judged and rewarded according to what their work were

rom 2:

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


rev 20:13

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


With this in Mind, Christ sufferings though invaluable because of His Splendid Being, nevertheless because of strict righteousness, His sufferings were proportioned to His Peoples Guilt, and this alone was the ground of it's sufficiency to save. The Lord Jesus Christ punishment was penal [ inflicted upon Him for the punishment of the sins of God's covenant chosen people Isa 53:8] so His vicarious sufferings were proportioned to their guilt and so He suffered at the hands of impartial Justice what they [ Gods elect] in their own persons must otherwise have endured in the place of endless woe, and so His sufferings renedered His sacrifice sufficient for the eternal purpose intended in the covenant of Grace, the everlasting covenant..

Isa 53:

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Not we might be healed, but we [The elect] are healed..

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. A specific people..

rom 8:

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who is us all ? vs 33

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2 cor 5:

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 pet 3:

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Not one ounce of Christ blood was shed in vain, for everyone it was designed to save and bring to God , it accomplished the same, and all those who shall have their portion in the lake of fire, He did not shed one drop of blood for..​

 

[Eventide]

eventide:
Thats exactly who I owe thanks, and not my freewill..

Too bad you've bought into the myth of Calvinism that you're the elect, that God chose you... that's where all the limited atonement nonsense comes from, along with the total depravity nonsense, the unconditional election nonsense, and the irresistable grace nonsense.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Too bad you've bought into the myth of Calvinism that you're the elect, that God chose you... that's where all the limited atonement nonsense comes from, along with the total depravity nonsense, the unconditional election nonsense, and the irresistable grace nonsense.

I know, you want salvation to be conditioned on the sinner so they can boast in what they have done to be saved..but sorry its not.

God's eternal love and Jesus Christ death makes the only difference on who are saved and lost..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ died only for those who believe !

Christ died only for those who believe, the elect or the sheep. They believe because He hath taken away their sins by the sacrifice of himself for them; but He has not taken away the sins of all men for sure, for they will follow them to the Judgment to be Judged. Also the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience for their sins eph 5:

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things [vs 3-5] cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Those Christ died for are not appointed to wrath for their sins 1 thess 5:

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Now if the wrath of God is coming on some for their sins, its reasonable to conclude that Christ did not die for their sins, and they were not included in the our sins of 1 cor 15:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

For God could not execute His wrath on them yet again ! Once in Christ as their sin bearer and then on them !

It would be unjust and unreasonable that God the Father would receive satisfaction to His Justice for the sins of men, and yet punish the same men for the same sins !! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right ? gen 18:25, and yet the reprobate, confirmed unbelievers shall suffer eternally for all their sins, which is shown in eph 5:6

Jn 3:

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

He that is not believing on the Son, shall[promise] not see life ! Its no future hope of them seeing life, they are confirmed in unbelief..

They believe not because they cannot believe..

Jn 8:

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

And they believe not because they are not of His Sheep Jn 10:

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And He gave His Life for the sheep vs 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

This shows the connection between believing and Christ death..



Matt 12:

36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

ecc 12:

14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Jude 1:

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

All their sins are considered breaches of the law of God as per 1 tim 1:

9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

But for all that Christ died for, He was made a curse for them gal 3:

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

For surely therefore, Christ did not present a satisfaction or propitiation unto the Fathers Justice for the sins of them who shall meet His Justice at the Judgment..

And those He died for are given the privilege to believe on His Name for His sake phil 1:

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

And because they were His Sheep Jn 10:

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Or Jesus can say " Ye believe" because ye are of my sheep, and I layed down my life for you...​

 

[Eventide]

I know, you want salvation to be conditioned on the sinner so they can boast in what they have done to be saved..but sorry its not.

Simply more Calvinistic nonsense.. nobody boasts in their salvation.

Just like the unconditional elect nonsense, the limited atonement of Christ nonsense, the totally depraved nonsense.. etc etc..

Take up your cross and follow Christ must not be applicable to you elect ones, right ?.. I mean after all, God chose you along with His only begotten Son..

This is where the limnited atonement gets its false basis.. by people being taught that God chose you and that you're the elect... but hey, the Cavlinists need to boast that their calling was special in comparison to the general call, that God had to allow you to repent and believe the gospel..

It's clear that Calvinists are the 'special' ones here.. just like the one true church crowd... they need to be special too.

 

[Sam21]

I have never known a christian to boast in what they did in order to get saved, saying yes to the offer of salvation from God is nothing to boast about, the boasting is about the Person who offered the salvation.
This is a real turn around, attempting to define christians as prideful because they said yes to God. The picture of pride is the individual who would assume that he is so SPECIAL that he will be saved regardless.
If you agree that you are one of the plain ordinary humans who cannot be saved...then at least your story would indicate that you believe it to be a simple fact, however when YOU are the special one then anyone can see where that came from.

 

[savedbygrace57]

eventide:

Simply more Calvinistic nonsense.. nobody boasts in their salvation.

Yes they do, its something they did.

People would rather take the credit for being saved than believing that God saves only those He has chosen..

You believe along with many others, that it was not solely the blood of Christ that saved a person, but what the person does.

You can boast because you did something another did not do, who had the same chance you did..

You were more humble than they, you acted more wisely than they, so you boast..

 

[savedbygrace57]

sam:

saying yes to the offer of salvation from God is nothing to boast about,

Yes it is, when you consider that others had the same offer you did, it was your saying yes that made the difference from being saved or lost..

 

[Eventide]

Re: The MYTH of UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION, LIMITIED ATONMENT, and TOTAL DEPRAVITY..

sam:



Yes it is, when you consider that others had the same offer you did, it was your saying yes that made the difference from being saved or lost..

The bible doesn't teach that believers say 'yes' to anything.. it says that they trust in the Lord Jesus Christ after they hear the gospel of their salvation.. and after they believe, the bible says that God seals them with the Holy Spirit of promise... that is when God baptizes us into that one body by the same Spirit. We become members of His body, the body of Christ, and that is why we are called the 'elect', because we're in Christ who is the elect.

There's nothing 'unconditional' abiout what Paul says there.. it's entirely conditional upon being in Christ and that is precisely because of what Paul says.. because they trusted in Christ after hearing the gospel.

That would be the same for all Christians, yourself included... you could not have been baptized into Christ unless you trusted in Him, after hearing the gospel.. that's exactly what the bible teaches.

What Calvinism teaches is unconditional election and it is foreign to the truth of scripture.. just as the limited atonement of Christ is, and total depravity... all teachings of a man.. so in a way, you're basically saying YES to what the man says, rather than to what God has said in His living and abiding word.

 

[Eventide]

Re: the actual MYTH is this..

So this thread stems from the false teaching of Calvinism... because Calvinism teaches that Christ only died for the 'elect'... but that doesn't make sense at all, because according to the scriptures, the Lord Jesus Christ is the elect.

The actual MYTH here is Limited Atonement, and that Christ died for the 'elect' only.. a false teaching from a man and from those who trust in his theology.

 

[savedbygrace57]

sam21:

I have never known a christian to boast in what they did in order to get saved, saying yes to the offer of salvation from God is nothing to boast about, the boasting is about the Person who offered the salvation.

Also, salvation is not an offer, its given to Gods elect..

There is no such thing as being offered salvation or eternal life..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ died only for those who believe !



So the death of Christ is that which causes or effects believing in Him as one of it's many fruits of accomplishment. Its through His Name [what He has done and accomplished] that some are believing and have remission of sins..

acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.[/U

Believing comes through [because of, on account of] His Name !

God through Christ is credited for ones believing..Thats why Paul Thanks God here 2 thess 2:

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief of the Truth is believing in Christ who is The Truth..

Jn 3:


14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Lifting up of Christ [ His death on the cross] is the underling cause of those believing on Him...

Believing is never a condition for eternal life, but a effect and evidence of Christ death for one..

It is given to believe in Him who died for them phil 1:


29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ[because of His death], not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Notice it is given to some to believe on Him..it was not offered them, but given as bestowed upon them to believe.

Given is aorist passive, so they received it because it was successfully given to them of God on Christ behalf..

So those who make believing on Christ a condition for receiving eternal life, do pervert the Truth, and steal that away from Christ which His death gives for His sake...