Eventide
Member
Oh right, I forgot that YOU are the elect, just like God's Son... you're one of the SPECIAL ones who bought into the lie of unconditional election.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
Oh right, I forgot that YOU are the elect, just like God's Son... you're one of the SPECIAL ones who bought into the lie of unconditional election.
Pizzaguy
Member
This thread is a very good example of the sillyness within the faith that I get tired of. What a waste, we have a poster trying to say that Christ died only for certain people - that some of us cannot call on the name of the Lord because Christ didn't die for them.
Again, this sounds like a dangerous thing to be saying - God is watching. I wonder what He'll have to say to you? And just what do you get out of this? How does this make you feel better - by telling the world (or at least us here) that Jesus didn't die for all, just for some?
Again, this sounds like a dangerous thing to be saying - God is watching. I wonder what He'll have to say to you? And just what do you get out of this? How does this make you feel better - by telling the world (or at least us here) that Jesus didn't die for all, just for some?
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
pizza:
He did, only His Sheep, or His Church..
Jn 10:
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
eph 5:
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
He Loved the whole world of His Sheep, of His Church...
He did, only His Sheep, or His Church..
Jn 10:
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
eph 5:
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
He Loved the whole world of His Sheep, of His Church...
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
even:
Thats right, Christ is elect, and so is His body ! Christ and His Body are One...
1 cor 12:12
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Thats right, Christ is elect, and so is His body ! Christ and His Body are One...
1 cor 12:12
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
We know that Christ did not die for everyone without exception because of the efficaciousness of the results His death . His death actually perfects forever all those He died for !
Hebrews 10:
14For by one offering [His death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Those who Christ offered Himself for in death, have been perfected forever and for this cause they shall be continuously being sanctified..
Its just impossible for Christ death not to produce this result..
Hebrews 10:
14For by one offering [His death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Those who Christ offered Himself for in death, have been perfected forever and for this cause they shall be continuously being sanctified..
Its just impossible for Christ death not to produce this result..
ahigherway
Member
On the contrary. Adam disobeyed, and brought sin, death and condemnation to all mankind. Jesus Christ (Adam 2) obeyed, and brought Life and Justification to all mankind.
So all are justified, not all are saved (yet).
Blessings,
brian
francisdesales
Member
Brian,
Yea, that's been said probably every 4 or so pages of this thread, but good luck in trying to get through on that one...
Regards
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
As Adam by His actions brought condemnation to all whom He represented, so likewise, Christ by His actions brought Justification to all He represented..
And yes, being Justified is being saved..one is declared righteous before God, free of sin...
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !
Jn 12 :
32And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The Death of Christ will draw all unto Him, the word men is not in the original, and so does not mean all men as individuals without exception, but all that the Father giveth Him as per
Jn 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
All races of men will believe in Him because of His being Lifted up.
Now Jesus is saying all for whom He is lifted up for and behalf of, they will come to believe in Him.
The lifting up effects the believing in Him. Lets look at Jn 3:
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The lifting up of the serpent was for them God had determined that would not die, but should live if and when they were bitten..
Here is the background story numbers 21:
5And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
You see, God had already destroyed those whom He did not want to Live earlier vs
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Those whom He determined to live, He caused them to have the fear of death ! They would be bitten and look to the serpent to live..but they had to first be spared of death themselves, of which God did..
Jn 12 :
32And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The Death of Christ will draw all unto Him, the word men is not in the original, and so does not mean all men as individuals without exception, but all that the Father giveth Him as per
Jn 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
All races of men will believe in Him because of His being Lifted up.
Now Jesus is saying all for whom He is lifted up for and behalf of, they will come to believe in Him.
The lifting up effects the believing in Him. Lets look at Jn 3:
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The lifting up of the serpent was for them God had determined that would not die, but should live if and when they were bitten..
Here is the background story numbers 21:
5And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
You see, God had already destroyed those whom He did not want to Live earlier vs
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Those whom He determined to live, He caused them to have the fear of death ! They would be bitten and look to the serpent to live..but they had to first be spared of death themselves, of which God did..
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Re: The Myth of saying that God loved all men without exception !
God does not Love all men without exception, because all whom He Loved are and will be more than conquerors, overcomer's through Christ..
rom 8:37
Nay, in all these things we [Elect] are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
The word through is the prep dia which means:
through
a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1) by reason of
2) on account of
3) because of for this reason
4) therefore
5) on this account
So, by reason of His Love for us [the elect] we are more than overcomer's..
So for God to have loved all without exception, then all without exception would be more than conquerors..Which certainly cannot be the case..
God does not Love all men without exception, because all whom He Loved are and will be more than conquerors, overcomer's through Christ..
rom 8:37
Nay, in all these things we [Elect] are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
The word through is the prep dia which means:
through
a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1) by reason of
2) on account of
3) because of for this reason
4) therefore
5) on this account
So, by reason of His Love for us [the elect] we are more than overcomer's..
So for God to have loved all without exception, then all without exception would be more than conquerors..Which certainly cannot be the case..
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Thats why Isa says that the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His Hand Isa 53:
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
In the Hand of the resurrected Christ, the Pleasure of the LORD [ His Father ] shall prosper, be of good success..
That means the Fathers desires shall prosper in His Hand. The word pleasure is the hebrew word:
chephets and means:
delight, pleasure
a) delight
b) desire, longing
c) the good pleasure
d) that in which one takes delight
That means, the Fathers desire for all men to be saved as in 1 tim 2:
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The word will here is the greek word
thelō and means:
to will, have in mind, intend
a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
b) to desire, to wish
c) to love
1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Now notice the similarities in this definition and the one for pleasure in Isa 53:10 !
This Tells me that Christ should prosper in accomplishing the Fathers will in ensuring that the all men the Father desires to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth.
So thats the obligation of the resurrected Christ to see to it that its done. And scripture says He shall prosper, which word means:
Its the hebrew word
tsalach :
Qal) to rush
2) to advance, prosper, make progress, succeed, be profitable
a) (Qal) to prosper
b) (Hiphil)
1) to make prosperous, bring to successful issue, cause to prosper
2) to show or experience prosperity, prosper
In other words, none shall be lost as stated in Jn 6:
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
So, if any in 1 tim 2 4 do not be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth as the Father desires, then Christ has failed His Fathers will and not prospered in the pleasure of the Lord as stated in Isa 53 10..
My conclusion is that Christ has prospered, and all who perish in their sins, it just was not Gods will for them to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth...
So Christ dying for all without exception is a myth..
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
In the Hand of the resurrected Christ, the Pleasure of the LORD [ His Father ] shall prosper, be of good success..
That means the Fathers desires shall prosper in His Hand. The word pleasure is the hebrew word:
chephets and means:
delight, pleasure
a) delight
b) desire, longing
c) the good pleasure
d) that in which one takes delight
That means, the Fathers desire for all men to be saved as in 1 tim 2:
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The word will here is the greek word
thelō and means:
to will, have in mind, intend
a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
b) to desire, to wish
c) to love
1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Now notice the similarities in this definition and the one for pleasure in Isa 53:10 !
This Tells me that Christ should prosper in accomplishing the Fathers will in ensuring that the all men the Father desires to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth.
So thats the obligation of the resurrected Christ to see to it that its done. And scripture says He shall prosper, which word means:
Its the hebrew word
tsalach :
Qal) to rush
2) to advance, prosper, make progress, succeed, be profitable
a) (Qal) to prosper
b) (Hiphil)
1) to make prosperous, bring to successful issue, cause to prosper
2) to show or experience prosperity, prosper
In other words, none shall be lost as stated in Jn 6:
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
So, if any in 1 tim 2 4 do not be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth as the Father desires, then Christ has failed His Fathers will and not prospered in the pleasure of the Lord as stated in Isa 53 10..
My conclusion is that Christ has prospered, and all who perish in their sins, it just was not Gods will for them to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth...
So Christ dying for all without exception is a myth..
Either God's scriptual word is in error or ones belief is in error! The Lord Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially those that believe! 1 Timothy 4:10. I do not serve a weak god, my God finished it once for all, and all includes everyone. He does not have to come back and do something again! As there is one God in us all. Ephesians 4:6
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Another element of Truth that mitigates against the Myth of Christ having died for all men without exception, is God's accuracy in proportioning punishment to each individual as they deserve. Jesus says some will be beaten with many stripes, and some with few stripes as here lk 12:
45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Every man will be Judged and rewarded according to what their work were
rom 2:
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
rev 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
With this in Mind, Christ sufferings though invaluable because of His Splendid Being, nevertheless because of strict righteousness, His sufferings were proportioned to His Peoples Guilt, and this alone was the ground of it's sufficiency to save. The Lord Jesus Christ punishment was penal [ inflicted upon Him for the punishment of the sins of God's covenant chosen people Isa 53:8] so His vicarious sufferings were proportioned to their guilt and so He suffered at the hands of impartial Justice what they [ Gods elect] in their own persons must otherwise have endured in the place of endless woe, and so His sufferings renedered His sacrifice sufficient for the eternal purpose intended in the covenant of Grace, the everlasting covenant..
Isa 53:
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Not we might be healed, but we [The elect] are healed..
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. A specific people..
rom 8:
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who is us all ? vs 33
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
2 cor 5:
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 pet 3:
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Not one ounce of Christ blood was shed in vain, for everyone it was designed to save and bring to God , it accomplished the same, and all those who shall have their portion in the lake of fire, He did not shed one drop of blood for..
45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Every man will be Judged and rewarded according to what their work were
rom 2:
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
rev 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
With this in Mind, Christ sufferings though invaluable because of His Splendid Being, nevertheless because of strict righteousness, His sufferings were proportioned to His Peoples Guilt, and this alone was the ground of it's sufficiency to save. The Lord Jesus Christ punishment was penal [ inflicted upon Him for the punishment of the sins of God's covenant chosen people Isa 53:8] so His vicarious sufferings were proportioned to their guilt and so He suffered at the hands of impartial Justice what they [ Gods elect] in their own persons must otherwise have endured in the place of endless woe, and so His sufferings renedered His sacrifice sufficient for the eternal purpose intended in the covenant of Grace, the everlasting covenant..
Isa 53:
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Not we might be healed, but we [The elect] are healed..
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. A specific people..
rom 8:
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who is us all ? vs 33
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
2 cor 5:
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 pet 3:
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Not one ounce of Christ blood was shed in vain, for everyone it was designed to save and bring to God , it accomplished the same, and all those who shall have their portion in the lake of fire, He did not shed one drop of blood for..
Pizzaguy
Member
Re: The Myth of saying that God loved all men without exception !
Such an odd twisting of scripture for someone calling himself "saved by grace".
So now He does not even LOVE all men.
Such an odd twisting of scripture for someone calling himself "saved by grace".
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
pizza:
He never Has ! All men without exception that is..
He never Has ! All men without exception that is..
Pizzaguy
Member
Yea, I get it. So, go ahead, do all you can to PROVE He did not die for all men.
I just wonder what He will have to say to you someday.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
pizza:
Not to you..
Not to you..
Proverbs3/5
Member
Then to who?
Pizzaguy
Member
I just don't understand why you want to convince us that Jesus did not die for all of us.
His words recorded on the cross and His worlds in all four gospels all make it clear to me that He came to save us all. And that the only reason someone does not receive the gift of salvation is that they refused the gift.
I do not see how it is any more complicated than that.