The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Proverbs3/5]

I just don't understand why you want to convince us that Jesus did not die for all of us.

His words recorded on the cross and His worlds in all four gospels all make it clear to me that He came to save us all. And that the only reason someone does not receive the gift of salvation is that they refused the gift.

I do not see how it is any more complicated than that.

You are correct. The gospel message is not complicated, but VERY simple. Jesus Christ died for ALL of mankind without exception, because ALL are born in sin without exception. It does not get more simple than that!

 

[Eventide]

Calvinists are just one of the many 'special' groups within Christendom... ya know.. they got the special call from God.. their call was irresistable.. they are the elect, God chose them specifically.. all that nonsense..

Let em believe it. It's pointless to convince this guy otherwise.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ died only for those who believe !

Christ died only for those who believe, the elect or the sheep. They believe because He hath taken away their sins by the sacrifice of himself for them; but He has not taken away the sins of all men for sure, for they will follow them to the Judgment to be Judged. Also the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience for their sins eph 5:

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things [vs 3-5] cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Those Christ died for are not appointed to wrath for their sins 1 thess 5:

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Now if the wrath of God is coming on some for their sins, its reasonable to conclude that Christ did not die for their sins, and they were not included in the our sins of 1 cor 15:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

For God could not execute His wrath on them yet again ! Once in Christ as their sin bearer and then on them !

It would be unjust and unreasonable that God the Father would receive satisfaction to His Justice for the sins of men, and yet punish the same men for the same sins !! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right ? gen 18:25, and yet the reprobate, confirmed unbelievers shall suffer eternally for all their sins, which is shown in eph 5:6

Jn 3:

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

He that is not believing on the Son, shall[promise] not see life ! Its no future hope of them seeing life, they are confirmed in unbelief..

They believe not because they cannot believe..

Jn 8:

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

And they believe not because they are not of His Sheep Jn 10:

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And He gave His Life for the sheep vs 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

This shows the connection between believing and Christ death..



Matt 12:

36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

ecc 12:

14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Jude 1:

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

All their sins are considered breaches of the law of God as per 1 tim 1:

9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

But for all that Christ died for, He was made a curse for them gal 3:

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

For surely therefore, Christ did not present a satisfaction or propitiation unto the Fathers Justice for the sins of them who shall meet His Justice at the Judgment..

And those He died for are given the privilege to believe on His Name for His sake phil 1:

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

And because they were His Sheep Jn 10:

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Or Jesus can say " Ye believe" because ye are of my sheep, and I layed down my life for you...​

 

[Lehigh3]

It's biblical, & not a myth.

John 1:29 NKJV
The Lamb of God

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Although Christ died for the sins of mankind, not all have salvation in this lifetime.

1Tim4:8-11 NKJV,
8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

 

[savedbygrace57]

leh:

It's biblical, & not a myth.

It is a myth, in fact a lie..

 

[Pizzaguy]

leh:

It is a myth, in fact a lie..

I admire these deep, theological discussions. 2

 

[Lehigh3]

I admire these deep, theological discussions. 2

:toofunny

Wow, maybe that's why the O.P. has carried on for 57 pages!!
And xtra mushrooms & cheese, pizzaguy!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
savedbygrace57,

I don't quite believe as you do.
Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for the sin of mankind. ALL mankind All the world.
The point you miss is that not ALL are made righteous in Jesus Christ. Some of course must realize our forgiveness for sin- which was in Adam (the natural man)

We believers are blessed in this life bc we believe & accept that forgiveness, & thus we are righteous in God's eyes bc our sin is not separating us from God any longer.
Therefore we are not dead spiritually towards God. Adam's sin was atoned for.

Ps.32:2 NKJV,
2 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.
Romans 4:8 NKJV,
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.â€[a]

 

[Proverbs3/5]

leh:



It is a myth, in fact a lie..

The above statement is only an OPINION. As seen in these 57 pages, the Bible is very clear and the Gospel message is that Christ died for ALL humanity. This SHOULD be the end of this discussion.

 

[savedbygrace57]

leh:

I don't quite believe as you do.
Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for the sin of mankind.

Then you do not believe the Truth, Christ did not die for all mankind without exception..He die for the elect of God..

rom 8:

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died,

It was only the sins of God's elect that were charged to Christ to die for..

Hence, in 1 cor 15 3

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

The our sins here are the elect..

 

[savedbygrace57]

prov 3 5

the Bible is very clear and the Gospel message is that Christ died for ALL humanity

.

You believe a lie, nothing i can do about it..

 

[savedbygrace57]

I admire these deep, theological discussions. 2

Read through the thread, there is plenty of theology if you really want to learn ..

 

[Eventide]

You believe a lie, nothing i can do about it..

And you believe a man, John Calvin.. and there's nothing we can do about that.. even the truth of scripture isn't enough to break those free from following men.. as the Lord said..

How can ye believe when ye receive honor one of another from men..

 

[savedbygrace57]

eventide:

And you believe a man, John Calvin.

And you believe another lie, I have made no reference to john calvin..

 

[Eventide]

eventide:



And you believe another lie, I have made no reference to john calvin..

You can't smell the TULIPs in your writing..?

What's this thread about.. Limited what ? Who did Christ die for.. ? Is it the Unconditionally Elect ones..?

The fragrance is overwhelming! ;-)

 

[Nathan]

What this thread is full of is aptly called "proof texting".

I was involved in it at the beginning. It will not end till the 'arguing' ends. This in fact is what has happened through this whole thread. Arguing mixed with underhanded insults.

The undeniable truth is that Jesus the Christ is the promised Messiah spoken of, and written about, in the OT. If someone wants to understand who He is, they must read about Him. Prooftext from the NT only will only serve to complicate who the Messiah really is. ANY argument can be made when using this approach.

 

[Elijah674]

You are correct. The gospel message is not complicated, but VERY simple. Jesus Christ died for ALL of mankind without exception, because ALL are born in sin without exception. It does not get more simple than that!

Hey, Elijah here:
'i' am a little slow, but I had thought that the implication was that the Eternal Godhead knew who would be saved & who would not be?? And that the question was if Christ died & suffered on the cross for these forknown by Them.. lost ones??

And very little is even mentioned in these massive number of response's of the Levitical type of blueprints given to us to understand Their teachings for us?? The scape/goat was a projection of what?

And do any think that satan will not suffer in hell for the sin's that he has caused one to do??? And Rev. 18:4 of us being PARTAKERS even project equal punishing in the lake of fire! + the Plagues. And Rev. 12:12 '..the devil..he knoweth that he hath but a short time.'

Well?? what does that have to do with the scapegoat verses? Lev. 16:5-10 & Lev. 16:19-22 once a year in the Heavenly Most Holy place representing the last day of Attonement for the Saved ones? Rev. 11:18-19 & Dan. 12:1-2 The Actual Finished Work of Christ our High Priest..

I surely do not find Christ pleading the case of the lost here or in the O.T. Sanctuary day of Atonement! In fact, in Lev. 17:8-9 we find if sins were not confessed at this time, the sinner was to be cut off! And to think that Christs blood was spilled for these is just not truth as 'i' see it!

 

[Nathan]

Hey, Elijah here:
'i' am a little slow, but I had thought that the implication was that the Eternal Godhead knew who would be saved & who would not be?? And that the question was if Christ died & suffered on the cross for these forknown by Them.. lost ones??

And very little is even mentioned in these massive number of response's of the Levitical type of blueprints given to us to understand Their teachings for us?? The scape/goat was a projection of what?

And do any think that satan will not suffer in hell for the sin's that he has caused one to do??? And Rev. 18:4 of us being PARTAKERS even project equal punishing in the lake of fire! + the Plagues. And Rev. 12:12 '..the devil..he knoweth that he hath but a short time.'

Well?? what does that have to do with the scapegoat verses? Lev. 16:5-10 & Lev. 16:19-22 once a year in the Heavenly Most Holy place representing the last day of Attonement for the Saved ones? Rev. 11:18-19 & Dan. 12:1-2 The Actual Finished Work of Christ our High Priest..

I surely do not find Christ pleading the case of the lost here or in the O.T. Sanctuary day of Atonement! In fact, in Lev. 17:8-9 we find if sins were not confessed at this time, the sinner was to be cut off! And to think that Christs blood was spilled for these is just not truth as 'i' see it!

Your right. I think that its a misunderstanding of terms and idea's. But at the same time the OP does seem to indicate that some can never have a chance to believe. Or, that there are human beings specifically created by God for destruction.

The flip side to the misunderstanding is that some are thinking that because Jesus' sacrifice is perfect in every way, that it will 'cover' the sins of even those who will not believe that He is the Christ.

The problem with this thread is that no one wants to take the time to understand the other person. I understand that we should have faith, but at the same time truth is indestructible so why not 'test' our faith to see if its real? Instead we guard against our faith, even if its at the cost of knowing the truth.

 

[Elijah674]

Your right. I think that its a misunderstanding of terms and idea's. But at the same time the OP does seem to indicate that some can never have a chance to believe. Or, that there are human beings specifically created by God for destruction.

The flip side to the misunderstanding is that some are thinking that because Jesus' sacrifice is perfect in every way, that it will 'cover' the sins of even those who will not believe that He is the Christ.

The problem with this thread is that no one wants to take the time to understand the other person. I understand that we should have faith, but at the same time truth is indestructible so why not 'test' our faith to see if its real? Instead we guard against our faith, even if its at the cost of knowing the truth.

Hi! Gen. 6:4 finds Cain satan's first covert. There was never any where before this that was penned where he rebelled in Gods required Lamb offering. And note that Christ talked with him in person & that He was even given another chance to 'do the right thing'.

And the flood ones were surely not predestined to death with both Noah & the Holy Spirit STRIVING with them for 120 years! And of todays Holy Spirits Prophesied ones of Rev. 17:1-5?? these ones also have gone LONG LONG past any 120 years of Striving, and we see the same old false doctrines being taught for truth & these ones will fight to the finish any scripture telling them different!!! (think of bowing down & kissing any man's ring! SICK!) Have these ones been created to be predestined to eternal death? NO WAY!

But you could find but 'few' of them budging one lick as a church structure, regardless if Christ came in person again & talked person to person! Heb. 6:6 And If so?? they would quickly get the boot, huh? John 12:42-43.

And you rightfully say:
'The flip side to the misunderstanding is that some are thinking that because Jesus' sacrifice is perfect in every way, that it will 'cover' the sins of even those who will not believe that He is the Christ.'

+ my friend, the ones who are not saved from sin, but who claim to be saved in sin. These are by far the worse offenders according to Christ in Luke 12:47-48.
And to think that the Godhead who did know all of this in eternity, would have Christ die for these who just flat out will not have anyone rule over them is bad theology!!

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Hi! Gen. 6:4 finds Cain satan's first covert. There was never any where before this that was penned where he rebelled in Gods required Lamb offering. And note that Christ talked with him in person & that He was even given another chance to 'do the right thing'.

And the flood ones were surely not predestined to death with both Noah & the Holy Spirit STRIVING with them for 120 years! And of todays Holy Spirits Prophesied ones of Rev. 17:1-5?? these ones also have gone LONG LONG past any 120 years of Striving, and we see the same old false doctrines being taught for truth & these ones will fight to the finish any scripture telling them different!!! (think of bowing down & kissing any man's ring! SICK!) Have these ones been created to be predestined to eternal death? NO WAY!

But you could find but 'few' of them budging one lick as a church structure, regardless if Christ came in person again & talked person to person! Heb. 6:6 And If so?? they would quickly get the boot, huh? John 12:42-43.

And you rightfully say:
'The flip side to the misunderstanding is that some are thinking that because Jesus' sacrifice is perfect in every way, that it will 'cover' the sins of even those who will not believe that He is the Christ.'

+ my friend, the ones who are not saved from sin, but who claim to be saved in sin. These are by far the worse offenders according to Christ in Luke 12:47-48.
And to think that the Godhead who did know all of this in eternity, would have Christ die for these who just flat out will not have anyone rule over them is bad theology!!

--Elijah

Truthfully said. Very nice. Very understandable. Seems there can be no confusion in these truths.

I would also liken Luke 18:9-14. The man did not revel in his sin, but rather was openly confessing of it, and desired to be released from it. The pharisee believed his 'position' was enough and did not even have the wit to see his own need for forgiveness and repentance. But it does not mean that God, through Christ, has not offered it. Some simply choose to reject it.

 

[ivdavid]

What this thread is full of is aptly called "proof texting".

True. I am fundamentally clear on this - the Bible is not ambiguous in any point. If there are multiple interpretations, the problem lies with the reader only. While almost all agree to this, we each disagree upon who has wrongly interpreted the text. There must then be another model for discussion and not mere - "Isn't it as obvious to you as to me."

Calvinists are just one of the many 'special' groups within Christendom... ya know.. they got the special call from God.. their call was irresistable.. they are the elect, God chose them specifically.. all that nonsense..

If my beliefs are going to be considered nonsense because someone is going to tag me a Calvinist, then for the record, I am not one - I have never read any of his writings, never heard of any of them except when people refer them to criticize him. But if all my beliefs are going to be considered nonsense because I hold on to the above stated beliefs, then I'm willing to stand by them to the point of ridicule. I feel it is rather presumptuous to be absolutely confident that the above are not true at all. That said, I understand what is at stake here....our beliefs define us and ceding another's belief to be true while that runs contrary to ours is in a sense denying ourselves - nearly an impossibility.

The problem with this thread is that no one wants to take the time to understand the other person.

True, we will have to dig deeper under the layers. We will have to know the reason WHY one wants to hold on to one belief and not another. Most people always have a ready answer for that on the surface, but what is needed is the underlying assumption or worldview or first premise that is the foundational root for their entire framework of beliefs. When these foundational, taken-for-granted assumptions are ironed out, the rest will fall into place.

For eg.: A person who feels that God is unjust in showing partiality when He saves one and not another, will reject the whole theology of "Salvation by Grace Alone". No amount of citing verses from the Bible can ever change this person's belief because this underlying belief remains firm. Because of this foundational premise, he is also forced to believe the doctrine of "Salvation by Grace AND Works." For this person to understand a proponent of "salvation by grace alone", he will have to be shown that his basic premise need not necessarily be true - that God is not unjust or partial in showing mercy to one and not to another.