Why was Christ needed then, if we have no option in the matter why not just live and die and go to God?
Your taking the Mediator out.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
Why was Christ needed then, if we have no option in the matter why not just live and die and go to God?
Your taking the Mediator out.
Eventide
Member
Yeah really, who needs a mediator when they're the elect along with the Lord Jesus Christ..
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Exactly who did Jesus Christ die for ? Was it for every person to ever live, or did died only for the ones the Father had Chosen to save ? Was His mission for coming to make Salvation a possibility for everyone, ore was it to actually guarantee the Salvation of the Elect by His death Rom 8:33-34.
This matter of the extent of Christ death is of momentous importance, to the point of even determining if we are in a saved or lost condition; for it is linked up with what Christ actually did when He died and rose again. Scripture is more than clear that Christ died for all that shall believe in Him Jn 17:20, those who the Father Chose and whom the Holy Spirit brings to Faith or the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13. This understanding of Christ only have died for the elect can be called Victorious Atonement or Redemption. The Whole Godhead is involved in the Salvation of the Elect, the Three Beings in the Trinity having convened in the Counsel of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20, Each Being having a very special role. Understanding this will give evidence of a Victorious Atonement and to give God all the Glory for Salvation, to whom alone it is due.
This matter of the extent of Christ death is of momentous importance, to the point of even determining if we are in a saved or lost condition; for it is linked up with what Christ actually did when He died and rose again. Scripture is more than clear that Christ died for all that shall believe in Him Jn 17:20, those who the Father Chose and whom the Holy Spirit brings to Faith or the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13. This understanding of Christ only have died for the elect can be called Victorious Atonement or Redemption. The Whole Godhead is involved in the Salvation of the Elect, the Three Beings in the Trinity having convened in the Counsel of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20, Each Being having a very special role. Understanding this will give evidence of a Victorious Atonement and to give God all the Glory for Salvation, to whom alone it is due.
:amen Very well said!
stovebolts
Member
Man this thread has grown long.
I can't go back over every post but has this verses been covered?
1 Timothy 4:10
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers
Yeah, it's been posted ... several times
Adullam
Member
Yeah, it's been posted ... several times
Thanks Jeff, I just didn't want to lengthen this thread any long....DOH!
Last edited by a moderator:
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
adull asked:
Yes, and I covered that passage extensively here:
http://www.christianforums.net/f17/scriptures-appear-teach-against-limited-atonement-35690/
See first three posts !
Yes, and I covered that passage extensively here:
http://www.christianforums.net/f17/scriptures-appear-teach-against-limited-atonement-35690/
See first three posts !
All right.
For two and a half days, I've been reading a bunch of threads by the op, trying to figure out what everyone disagrees with and I think I finally got it through my thick skull. Can one of you tell me if I've got it right?
This person thinks that God knew from before He created the world, who He would save and who He would not. I kind of have to agree with that. He knows everything, after all...
Then, he also believes that preaching the gospel is futile, because God has already decided who He will save or not, so the gospel is not necessary?
Then, he also believes that there are some verses that were added in or that the bible was corrupted, and that the verse: God is not willing that ANY man should perish - should not be in there? (Or is it that he thinks the verse SHOULD be in there but that it is misunderstood or something?)
Do I have an understanding of this?
For two and a half days, I've been reading a bunch of threads by the op, trying to figure out what everyone disagrees with and I think I finally got it through my thick skull. Can one of you tell me if I've got it right?
This person thinks that God knew from before He created the world, who He would save and who He would not. I kind of have to agree with that. He knows everything, after all...
Then, he also believes that preaching the gospel is futile, because God has already decided who He will save or not, so the gospel is not necessary?
Then, he also believes that there are some verses that were added in or that the bible was corrupted, and that the verse: God is not willing that ANY man should perish - should not be in there? (Or is it that he thinks the verse SHOULD be in there but that it is misunderstood or something?)
Do I have an understanding of this?
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
jennie:
Correct !
Not correct, the Gospel is Necessary for a witness to all Nations Matt 24:14
Yes, that verse does belong in the scripture, but its meaning has been perverted, the verse is speaking about God's Elect in every generation until the end of the world, that God is not willing that they should perish, and they won't.
Correct !
Not correct, the Gospel is Necessary for a witness to all Nations Matt 24:14
Yes, that verse does belong in the scripture, but its meaning has been perverted, the verse is speaking about God's Elect in every generation until the end of the world, that God is not willing that they should perish, and they won't.
Hello SBG!
Very nice to finally meet you after having read so many of your posts!
Thank you for speaking with me!
So then, my question is, WHY is the gospel necessary for a witness to all the nations? If it will not either save or harm, why do you believe He told us to go out and proclaim it?
And so you think in the last verse you referred to in this last post that the word all should be the word chosen? And could you show me the work behind how they arrive at that?
Thank you!
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
jennie:
Because God says for it to be a witness to all nations Matt 24:
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Nope, God wants the non elect to hear the Gospel for a witness too !
I have shown a lot in this Thread, read what I have already posted. Thanks..
Because God says for it to be a witness to all nations Matt 24:
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Nope, God wants the non elect to hear the Gospel for a witness too !
I have shown a lot in this Thread, read what I have already posted. Thanks..
I have read literally hundreds of your posts. I still don't see it answered. But, it's okay. I'm sure everyone is busy! Thanks anyway! Nice to meet you!
:
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
jennie:
Then I have no answer for you on that question, if what I have already communicated does not answer you, I have nothing to add.
Then I have no answer for you on that question, if what I have already communicated does not answer you, I have nothing to add.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Christ died for our sins according to scripture ! -
1 Cor 15:3-4
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
This means old testament types serve as an enlightenment on the extent and efficacy of Christ atoning death.
Remember what Paul wrote 1 Tim 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correctionn, for instruction in righteousness:
We will be looking at from scripture the doctrine of atonement.
Lets look at Noah's Ark, a type of Christ. 1 Pet 3:20-21
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
No doubt this is a clear and unmistakable reference to Noah and the Ark passing through the judgmental flood in connection with the atoning death and justifying resurrection of Jesus Christ. The pattern of the Ark was given to Noah in minute detail by the Sovereign LORD (Gen. 6:14-16). Now the question is, was the ark adequate in size to allow for all who were living on the earth at that time? We all surely know the answer to that.
It was not God's purpose to save all of Mankind in the Ark, but only Noah and his family, and seeing there is no negligible quantity in The LORD, all the room and sufficiency sovereignly fitted in the ark for flood survival was fully put to use. Noah was "a preacher of righteousness," and while the ark was "a preparing," Noah preached Christ by emblem and sermon; for to preach righteousness is to preach Christ, for He is the believer’s justifying righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor.5:21).
No doubt during this long period of one hundred and twenty years of Ark building, Noah admonished others as he was warned of God (Heb 11:7). However, only seven believed his report and they were of his own house (Gen 7:1). Then God brought judgment upon the world of the ungodly and they perished in the flood (2 Pet 2:5). The Noachian household is a type of the household of God (Eph 2:19), and Christ, the anti type of the Ark (Acts 4:12) and Head "over His own house" (Heb. 3:6), has made adequate room for His family and none else. Christ is the Sovereign who having eternally loved His progeny, He made room for them and them alone in ark of His mercy and grace. The Ark as a type was not given to us in abbreviated fashion, but in minute thoroughness, and every detail points to Christ.
Atonement sufficiency is founded in God’s forelove, and Christ loves only those who were given to Him by the Father in the covenant of redemption (Jer 31:3 ; John 13:1 , 17:6 ; Rom. 8:37). In the redemptive design there is no such thing as uncovenanted love, and hence no universal atonement sufficiency.
The Ark was a divine arrangement made before the waters of judgment fell from heaven, and in building the Ark, Noah followed the Divine specifications with exactitude. "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him,’ so did he" (Gen. 6:22). There was not one extra cubic inch in the completion of the Ark, nor was there any wasted space. The sufficiency of the Ark was according to God’s purpose, and His elective purpose was to save only eight souls from the flood (1 Pet 3:20).
In like manner, Jesus Christ was furnished by God before the foundation of the world to deliver His people from the storm of judgment of the wrath to come (1 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 1:10). Christ’s mission to this earth, as was the Ark, was according in every detail to the necessity of His people, and not one thing wrought by the atoning death of Christ was extended beyond those for whom He died. The sufficiency and efficiency of Christ’s offering was eternally concluded to the elect of God, and there was no redemptive sufficiency for the rest. The purpose of atoning sufficiency must be determined by its achievement, and it has none beyond "the Church of God, and the sheep of His hand..." (Acts 20:28; Ps 95:7).
This Type is especially instructive since The Lord compares the time of His return with that of the days of Noah, Matt 24:37-38
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
1 Cor 15:3-4
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
This means old testament types serve as an enlightenment on the extent and efficacy of Christ atoning death.
Remember what Paul wrote 1 Tim 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correctionn, for instruction in righteousness:
We will be looking at from scripture the doctrine of atonement.
Lets look at Noah's Ark, a type of Christ. 1 Pet 3:20-21
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
No doubt this is a clear and unmistakable reference to Noah and the Ark passing through the judgmental flood in connection with the atoning death and justifying resurrection of Jesus Christ. The pattern of the Ark was given to Noah in minute detail by the Sovereign LORD (Gen. 6:14-16). Now the question is, was the ark adequate in size to allow for all who were living on the earth at that time? We all surely know the answer to that.
It was not God's purpose to save all of Mankind in the Ark, but only Noah and his family, and seeing there is no negligible quantity in The LORD, all the room and sufficiency sovereignly fitted in the ark for flood survival was fully put to use. Noah was "a preacher of righteousness," and while the ark was "a preparing," Noah preached Christ by emblem and sermon; for to preach righteousness is to preach Christ, for He is the believer’s justifying righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor.5:21).
No doubt during this long period of one hundred and twenty years of Ark building, Noah admonished others as he was warned of God (Heb 11:7). However, only seven believed his report and they were of his own house (Gen 7:1). Then God brought judgment upon the world of the ungodly and they perished in the flood (2 Pet 2:5). The Noachian household is a type of the household of God (Eph 2:19), and Christ, the anti type of the Ark (Acts 4:12) and Head "over His own house" (Heb. 3:6), has made adequate room for His family and none else. Christ is the Sovereign who having eternally loved His progeny, He made room for them and them alone in ark of His mercy and grace. The Ark as a type was not given to us in abbreviated fashion, but in minute thoroughness, and every detail points to Christ.
Atonement sufficiency is founded in God’s forelove, and Christ loves only those who were given to Him by the Father in the covenant of redemption (Jer 31:3 ; John 13:1 , 17:6 ; Rom. 8:37). In the redemptive design there is no such thing as uncovenanted love, and hence no universal atonement sufficiency.
The Ark was a divine arrangement made before the waters of judgment fell from heaven, and in building the Ark, Noah followed the Divine specifications with exactitude. "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him,’ so did he" (Gen. 6:22). There was not one extra cubic inch in the completion of the Ark, nor was there any wasted space. The sufficiency of the Ark was according to God’s purpose, and His elective purpose was to save only eight souls from the flood (1 Pet 3:20).
In like manner, Jesus Christ was furnished by God before the foundation of the world to deliver His people from the storm of judgment of the wrath to come (1 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 1:10). Christ’s mission to this earth, as was the Ark, was according in every detail to the necessity of His people, and not one thing wrought by the atoning death of Christ was extended beyond those for whom He died. The sufficiency and efficiency of Christ’s offering was eternally concluded to the elect of God, and there was no redemptive sufficiency for the rest. The purpose of atoning sufficiency must be determined by its achievement, and it has none beyond "the Church of God, and the sheep of His hand..." (Acts 20:28; Ps 95:7).
This Type is especially instructive since The Lord compares the time of His return with that of the days of Noah, Matt 24:37-38
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Former Christian
Member
Savedbygrace57
The art of typology was created to bolster personal opinion. There are types in the Bible. The art creates typology where none exists.
FC
The art of typology was created to bolster personal opinion. There are types in the Bible. The art creates typology where none exists.
FC
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Matt 1:21
New Testament Testimony is as vital as OT types as to understanding whom Christ died for. I just showed from OT Type, the Ark, that God designed the Salvation of a few People through the Ark which typified Christ. 1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Jesus says in General about how many are going to be saved Luke 13:
22And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Now notice how Matthew writes this response of Christ Matt 7:13-14
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Christ knew the extent of those He would be saving. In Looking at the New Testament we see no less than in the types of the Old, a specific design and purpose declared in the birth and death of Christ. The Angel declares to Joseph Matt 1:21
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Here is a special purpose announced in regards to Christ coming into the world, namely that He should be manifested as a Saviour; For He shall save His People from their sins. Here is a special people [ the foreknown Rom 8:29;11:2] the antitype of National Israel, a People He already knew as His, as His Sheep John 10:14,16, that are to be saved, and a special salvation with which they are to be saved, and so there is nothing in these words that warrant us the notion of a general salvation opportunity for all, which is no salvation unless persons make it so by delivering themselves by their own freewill from their sins; But on the contrary, everything is stated to be positive, He shall save His People, and shall save them from their sins [ Because they are sinners], and His name is Jesus or Saviour, because He shall save His special People with a Special Salvation. God told the Antitypical People this Deut 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
These are those Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
None can be Special to God outside of Christ. Now if we were to take the Angel, the Heavenly Messenger at His word, we would know the extent of Christ death and mission into the world, and who He came to save from their sins. It was a specific people, not everyone without exception !
New Testament Testimony is as vital as OT types as to understanding whom Christ died for. I just showed from OT Type, the Ark, that God designed the Salvation of a few People through the Ark which typified Christ. 1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Jesus says in General about how many are going to be saved Luke 13:
22And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Now notice how Matthew writes this response of Christ Matt 7:13-14
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Christ knew the extent of those He would be saving. In Looking at the New Testament we see no less than in the types of the Old, a specific design and purpose declared in the birth and death of Christ. The Angel declares to Joseph Matt 1:21
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Here is a special purpose announced in regards to Christ coming into the world, namely that He should be manifested as a Saviour; For He shall save His People from their sins. Here is a special people [ the foreknown Rom 8:29;11:2] the antitype of National Israel, a People He already knew as His, as His Sheep John 10:14,16, that are to be saved, and a special salvation with which they are to be saved, and so there is nothing in these words that warrant us the notion of a general salvation opportunity for all, which is no salvation unless persons make it so by delivering themselves by their own freewill from their sins; But on the contrary, everything is stated to be positive, He shall save His People, and shall save them from their sins [ Because they are sinners], and His name is Jesus or Saviour, because He shall save His special People with a Special Salvation. God told the Antitypical People this Deut 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
These are those Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
None can be Special to God outside of Christ. Now if we were to take the Angel, the Heavenly Messenger at His word, we would know the extent of Christ death and mission into the world, and who He came to save from their sins. It was a specific people, not everyone without exception !