The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[mlqurgw]

Wow! I go away for a few hours and the thread has run amuck. While there is much I wish to comment on since I was last here I will confine myself to those posts that addressed me directly.

mlqurgw,

In order to better understand your point of view, I would like to ask a few questions.

If all men, who are called, who are His sheep, will be saved; then why argue to those that think otherwise? Does it really matter? Is one lie better than the other? Do you go onto other sites and argue against other truths? Why do you pick this particular 'lie', as you seem to think of it, as worse than someone saying it is going to rain tomorrow and it does not?

The atonement of Christ is the very foundation of the Gospel message. If you are wrong in your foundation you are wrong on all you build upon it. I spent many years actually laying foundations for high rise buildings. Just a 1/4 inch off on the foundation translates to 10 feet very quickly as you build up from it. Christ is the foundation of the Gospel, 1Cor. 3:11. If you are off on Him everything you build is off. That is why it so very important to get the foundation correct.

The other question, of much more importance, are all of His 'sheep' written in the Book of Life?

Their names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from before the foundation of the world,Rev. 17:8.

 

[Strangelove]

I also note your anger and dislike of Calvinists.

I'm going to bed now so I'll address your post tomorrow but...

.....that is just hilarious. LOLZ!

Ya.....I'm a lifelong Calvinist hater! Lol.....

 

[mlqurgw]

Hey mlqurgw...did you get to the polling stations in time?

Did you vote?

Yes I did. Thanks for asking. As far as I know all of my candidates won.

If so....why did you bother?

One candidate is predestined to win so why would your vote make any difference?

Lolz.

This is desperation. You seek to build straw men because you can't actually deal with the truth. My vote didn't make a difference in the whole purpose and plan of God, He does as He intends in all things, but it did make a difference in the physical world I live in. If I had not voted then there would have been one less to count in order to elect the one whom God ordained. He ordained my vote just as much as He ordained the victor. Now to make it simple so you can grasp it, God uses means to accomplish His ends. The means He used to acomplish His purpose of all the victors being elected was the vote of the people, including mine.

 

[Strangelove]

Faith is a gift of God. In some way or another God reveals Himself to a person. From then on, that person will be unable to deny... They will not want to deny…

And no, I do not discuss predestination with non-believers. Predestination is really not an evangelical tool. Nevertheless, it is biblical.

-HisSheep

GRACE is a gift of God. Not FAITH.

We are given Grace THROUGH faith.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is not of ourselves it IS a gift from God. But WE have to do the faith bit.​

Faith is the GOSPELS:

11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen.​

G'night mate. God bless ALL of us. All who CHOOSE to come to His love. :waving

 

[mlqurgw]

GRACE is a gift of God. Not FAITH.

We are given Grace THROUGH faith.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

Grace is not of ourselves it IS a gift from God. But WE have to do the faith bit.​

Faith is the GOSPELS:

11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen.​

G'night mate. God bless ALL of us. All who CHOOSE to come to His love. :waving

Actually the word "that" in Eph. 2:8 refers to salvation, grace and faith. All are the gift of God. Faith is not the Gospels but the result of an act of God in and for the chosen sinner. You must be born again to even see the Kingdom of God. John 3:3 The natural man cannot perceive spiritual things because they are foolishness to him. He is blind to truth and to who and what Christ is and did. 1Cor. 2:14.

I find it amazing that man has taken the very weakest part of his nature and made it to be the very determiner of his eternal destiny.

 

[mlqurgw]

Are the Old Covenant sheep's names entered into the book of life for the same reason the New Covenant sheep's names are entered?

The answer is an absolute yes. The book of Hebrews makes it very clear that all that shedding of the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin but only pointed to Christ who did. Heb. 11 is the faith chapter but the question is what those folks had faith in? They had faith in Christ. They certainly didn't know His name but they knew He would come and He would redeem His people. Even the most ancient of the books of the Bible tells us this fact, Job 19:25-27

 

[Nathan]

The answer is an absolute yes. The book of Hebrews makes it very clear that all that shedding of the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin but only pointed to Christ who did. Heb. 11 is the faith chapter but the question is what those folks had faith in? They had faith in Christ. They certainly didn't know His name but they knew He would come and He would redeem His people. Even the most ancient of the book so the Bible tell sus this fact, Job 19:25-27

Ok. Has He ever rejected any who's name has been written in the book of life?

 

[Mike]

Of course not, why would they need to know that? I once heard an excellent and famous sermon by Paris Reidhead. It’s called 10 shekels and a shirt. In it, Mr. Reidhead describes beating himself up over his inability to convert any of the natives he is trying evangelize. It is then that it dawns on him that if they don’t repent of their idols and turn to God, it is out of his hands. Predestination in this case, comforts the evangelizer.

HisSheep, I've followed this along, happily on the banks watching this rushing river fly by. I've done this bit with you and others, so I'm not inclined to jump in again. (reserving my strength :D)

I'm so glad to see you back in the swing of things. I wanted to tell you that I always hold you in high regard. We disagree on Predestination, but through our threads, you were more than gracious and amicable. It's easy to battle it out with you, because of your demeanor. (now with all this love crossing the aisle to my Calvy friend, do you think you owe me one? If you do this for me, you will receive an equal benefit. Clean up that avatar!!! Now I see you as a house fly might, but I don't want to see that anymore! Plllleeeeaaasssseee!

I just saw this last post and decided I'd throw my . (Since I never got a PM from you screaming "Mike! Get over here! I need your !!"

It's been my perception that Calvinists misrepresent the non-Calvinist's take on faith. I believe people have the inability to embrace faith unless the Lord reveals Himself to them. They are so completely lost and any chance of coming to faith is God giving them the ability to see it. Up to this point, the onus is completely on the Lord's Autonomy. But the gift is now there, waiting for any and all to choose if they desire to except that which only God could provide. Deuteronomy captures this in a nutshell for me.

Deut 30
" 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him."

God set the table, we decide if we should eat. The gift was there the moment God enabled them to see the Truth. From that point, however, whether one a person acts upon this prodding by the Lord, is up to them.

I don't intend on being fully engaged in this thread. Been down that road a few times, and it's exhausting. But I will try to respond if I'm addressed personally.

Again, you are a humble Calvinist, and I truly appreciate your approach in dealing with people who differ from your opinion. I do believe, that in the end, the same people will enter paradise whether they were called or whether they chose.

Thanks, my Calvinist bro-tha!

 

[mlqurgw]

Ok. Has He ever rejected any who's name has been written in the book of life?

Why do I feel like I am being set up for something? Why don't you just make your point instead of setting me up? I am sorry but I ain't so foolish as to continue to answer in order to be set up. Make your point please and I will answer it.

 

[Strangelove]

LOL, that actually happened. I was once speaking to an atheist. He said he cannot believe in a God that judges people like he did in the OT. My answer was "I know." I did not mention that the NT pictures Christ as the judge over mankind in the book of Revelation in far more harsh terms.

You didnt answer the question. Do you as a matter of truthfulness [in your eyes] tell people routinely that the Bible probably isn't gonna work on them? Do you tell them that? Do you give them that pearl of wisdom and basic plank of your teachings?

I also note your anger and dislike of Calvinists. There are no "Calvinists" in your opinion, just "hyper-Calvinists" and "super-Calvinists?"

That is just so funny. Looking a bit defensive there mondar. The only contact I've had with Calvanists is you guys. This is your big chance to show me what your sect is all about and TBH your blowing it big time. You see....I'm a perfect test subject. 30 years of atheism. Non-religious family and friends. Never been to church in my life. Moved to a third world country so no contact with English speaking Christians. Read the Bible ONLY and came to the faith. I'm a desert isalnd Christian. Just me and my Bible. No direct outside influence apart from 6 months on forums where its simply impossible to have teachings forced on you.

So......when I hear things that I didn't get from scripture...red flags go up. And I question them. And when I get answers I compare with scripture. And this teaching that you guys swear by does not pass the test. And do you wanna know what really sets of the alarm bells for me? It's when people attack the pure and basic doctrine of justification by faith. It's always the same way with wonky teachings....somewhere down the line they will always do this. And I will defend it vigorously.

So my friend.....you can give yourself whatever name you want. Super, high, hyper, medium calvanist...whatever. If you sense dislike then its dislike for YOUR teaching....you and your mates here. Not the man...the teaching. So dont take it personal and plz dont cry persecution. I have no preconcieved ideas on any denomination. I just know whats Biblical and whats not.

And of course I offer the gospel to all men. While I accept the responsibility of the great commission, I do not accept responsibility for the results. I share the gospel to all. God chooses some to accept it, and some to reject it.

But why take up the great commision if its not gonna make any difference? Can you think of another thing we're told to do that is pointlesss like that?

I would guess it is different with you. If you accept libertarian free will, then if someone has rejected the message, you failed.

LOLZ! Not.....at.....all. My responsibility ends the moment I hand them the Gospels. After that it's up to them to do the reading and come to the faith. THEN God will baptize them in the Holy Spirit and take over. Lol.....that is such a warped view of us 'normal' Christians. Lol.

You need to do like the ultimate free willer, Charles Finney. Do all you can to use means emotions to make any decision you can get them to make for the Lord. As for me, I do not feel called to do any more then present the gospel. God decides.

Um....I didn't understand most of that but yeah I agree with the bolded part. But God doesn't decide whether a man reads the message and makes the correct decisions to come to the faith. Man does.

As for responsibility.... We are responsible to believe, life righteously. Of course God has not enabled everyone to fulfill our responsibilities. For those who do not fulfill responsibilities to believe their is judgment. For we who believe, we should count it all (even our faith) as grace.

Doesnt the bolded part contradict your entire thosophy? If we are responsible for believing then it is in OUR HANDS.

**Groan**....Grace is the free gift of God that comes AFTER AND THROUGH faith. Faith is the hard work! It's the homework....the reading...the gathering of evidence and the decision to commit. Its not grace as I explained in my other post which you replied to and which I will counter reply to next.

Now the natural reply would be that this is not fair for God to make us responsible for something we cannot accomplish. Such a reply would be agree with Paul's imaginary antagonist that God does not have the right to choose, we do.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?

You really think us normal Christians are a bunch of whiney imbeciles dont you?

You guys are extremely snobby in my opinion. I can imagine Calvinists get together late at night over some warm whiskey thinking up ways that they can be different and superior to the rest of Christendom.

Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather hang out with the hookers and the tax collecters. At least theres the chance that someone can be shown the Gospel and saved there! LOLZ!

 

[Strangelove]

Faith is a gift of God. In some way or another God reveals Himself to a person. From then on, that person will be unable to deny... They will not want to deny…

And no, I do not discuss predestination with non-believers. Predestination is really not an evangelical tool. Nevertheless, it is biblical.

-HisSheep

In some way or another??? My word.....you really just cannot say its the Gospels can you?

RED BOLD: But it's such a pillar of your thosophy! How about if a non-believer walks into your church and is exposed to your teachings on predestiantion? Lolz! Do you have to make excuses for it....before offering them the Gospel?

"oh....um.....dont worry about that stuff....its.....ermm.......its level 2....yeah!...thats just some stuff that we super-calvinists talk about that doesn't concern you beginners...dont let it put you off reading the Gosp....HEY!! WAIT......COME BAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!!"

LOLZ.

 

[Strangelove]

Of course not, why would they need to know that? I once heard an excellent and famous sermon by Paris Reidhead. It’s called 10 shekels and a shirt. In it, Mr. Reidhead describes beating himself up over his inability to convert any of the natives he is trying evangelize. It is then that it dawns on him that if they don’t repent of their idols and turn to God, it is out of his hands. Predestination in this case, comforts the evangelizer.

So predestination is a plank of your theory that you need to keep well hidden from potential believers basically, in order not to scare them away from the faith.

Does that sound like Christianity to you? Really?

Just coz Mr. Reidhead wants to illogically beat himself up for something that isn't his fault doesn't mean the rest of us do.

Your take on it is common: Why evangelize if it’s already determined? It occurs to me that, throughout scripture, God rarely ever acts alone. In His dealings with men, He (nearly) always uses a human instrument(s).

Oh ya....silly old God eh? He forgot about His own setting of predestination so He goes to all the trouble of working through men of the Earth!?

WHY!?

Could God have done it without Ezekiel’s help? You bet He could’ve. But He chose to do it through His instrument Ezekiel. Likewise, God spoke through Moses who delivered His word to Israel.

Did God need Jonah to deliver His message to Nineveh? Did God need Joshua to encircle Jericho and blow his horn? Did God need Ananias to visit Paul? Of course not.

So, in the same way as these instruments, we are to speak the word of God to His sheep. It is not that He can’t do it without our help, but that is the way He wants it and that’s the way it will be done.

WHY!? What the point in the whole using of humans and indeed the whole human drama if God doesnt want us to have the choice? It doesnt....make......any.....sense what your saying.

Regarding the Wheat and Tares:

Really? Read it carefully:

This is plain. Some of us are wheat, and the others are weeds. God already knows which are which. In order to bring up His crop in the best possible way, the weeds are allowed to grow alongside them. Again, God is not determining which of us are wheat and which are weeds; He already knows that. The servants in the parable know it, too.

That bolded part is not alluded to in the parable. This is your own conclusion. How do you know God didnt decide to leave that particular factor up to the choice of the man. [which is indeed the logical way of doing it...since were all here to learn a lesson!]

Ask yourself: Who planted the weeds? Right, the devil. They are sons of the devil. Not sons of God: The concept that all men are the children of God is from the gospel according to John Lennon, I think, which is not in my bible.

Imagine all the people that refuse to consider Christianity because of your teaching. It's easy if you try. The 'who is responsible' part of whether a man becomes a child of God or of satan is not shown in that parable.

The sons of the devil will not believe:

This is not theory. It is Christianity.

The reason they belong to their father the devil and the reason they do not hear and do not belong to God is because they CHOSE to forsake the Torah and to follow man made traditions like the Talmud and oral law. It's concious man-made decisions that do this. Real world man.

What your talking about is not Christianity it is a sect of Christianity. Some may even call it a cult.

 

[Strangelove]

1 John 2:3-6

3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,†but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

This is not to say that I am perfect… but: I can see the dramatic change in myself as a result of my faith. I know that the works I do are not of myself. Even my desire to rid my life of sin is not of myself. I am able to overcome sin that I previously didn’t have any power over…

I know it won’t convince you of my salvation (it’s not intended to), but it sure convinces me.

-HisSheep

So..... the determining factor on knowing for sure that you are one of His sheep is if you think you have seen a change in your life.

So...anyman who sees himself change into a new creature is automatically a true Christian and saved and a part of your limited atonement.

So...the mental process of MAN is what decides if he is one of His sheep and not the predestination of God.

Your honor.................I rest my case.

 

[Strangelove]

This is desperation. You seek to build straw men because you can't actually deal with the truth. My vote didn't make a difference in the whole purpose and plan of God, He does as He intends in all things, but it did make a difference in the physical world I live in.

That doesn't make any sense. God's plan is with the Kingdom of God AND in the physical world you live in. So why bother voting if God is gonna do as He pleases anyway?

 

[Strangelove]

Actually the word "that" in Eph. 2:8 refers to salvation, grace and faith. All are the gift of God.

The verse is about Grace. Theres no way around that. You are jumping through fire laced hoops to make this work for you and you tripped and landed on your face in front of the crowd....and they went.....booooooooo.

Faith is not the Gospels but the result of an act of God in and for the chosen sinner.

So I'll just post Hebrews 11:1 again>>> It's the Biblical definition of faith>>

11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen.​

Now...my interpretation is that the 'things hoped for' and 'things not seen' is referring to the birth, life, death, resurrection and second coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Do we agree on that?

The 'substance' and 'evidence'....well..what can that be other than the Gospels?

The Gospels is the proof and the support. It is our direct evidence of the promise.

What is your interpretation of that particular verse...if you please sir.

It doesn't say anything about an act of God in that Biblical definition.

You must be born again to even see the Kingdom of God. John 3:3 The natural man cannot perceive spiritual things because they are foolishness to him. He is blind to truth and to who and what Christ is and did. 1Cor. 2:14.

Being born again happens AFTER you receive the Gospel message.

I find it amazing that man has taken the very weakest part of his nature and made it to be the very determiner of his eternal destiny.

It's not man but GOD who did that. And He did it for a good reason. To show that we make can choices that effect our destiny by OVERCOMING our weak nature. The nature of sin. That is our test.

 

[Strangelove]

Why do I feel like I am being set up for something?

Because your starting to feel exposed and that you might be wrong about something big.

NateDog has you in check, and is 3 pawns, a bishop and a rook up on you.

Your move. Take your time.

 

[mlqurgw]

You didnt answer the question. Do you as a matter of truthfulness [in your eyes] tell people routinely that the Bible probably isn't gonna work on them? Do you tell them that? Do you give them that pearl of wisdom and basic plank of your teachings?



That is just so funny. Looking a bit defensive there mondar. The only contact I've had with Calvanists is you guys. This is your big chance to show me what your sect is all about and TBH your blowing it big time. You see....I'm a perfect test subject. 30 years of atheism. Non-religious family and friends. Never been to church in my life. Moved to a third world country so no contact with English speaking Christians. Read the Bible ONLY and came to the faith. I'm a desert isalnd Christian. Just me and my Bible. No direct outside influence apart from 6 months on forums where its simply impossible to have teachings forced on you.

So......when I hear things that I didn't get from scripture...red flags go up. And I question them. And when I get answers I compare with scripture. And this teaching that you guys swear by does not pass the test. And do you wanna know what really sets of the alarm bells for me? It's when people attack the pure and basic doctrine of justification by faith. It's always the same way with wonky teachings....somewhere down the line they will always do this. And I will defend it vigorously.

So my friend.....you can give yourself whatever name you want. Super, high, hyper, medium calvanist...whatever. If you sense dislike then its dislike for YOUR teaching....you and your mates here. Not the man...the teaching. So dont take it personal and plz dont cry persecution. I have no preconcieved ideas on any denomination. I just know whats Biblical and whats not.



But why take up the great commision if its not gonna make any difference? Can you think of another thing we're told to do that is pointlesss like that?



LOLZ! Not.....at.....all. My responsibility ends the moment I hand them the Gospels. After that it's up to them to do the reading and come to the faith. THEN God will baptize them in the Holy Spirit and take over. Lol.....that is such a warped view of us 'normal' Christians. Lol.



Um....I didn't understand most of that but yeah I agree with the bolded part. But God doesn't decide whether a man reads the message and makes the correct decisions to come to the faith. Man does.



Doesnt the bolded part contradict your entire thosophy? If we are responsible for believing then it is in OUR HANDS.

**Groan**....Grace is the free gift of God that comes AFTER AND THROUGH faith. Faith is the hard work! It's the homework....the reading...the gathering of evidence and the decision to commit. Its not grace as I explained in my other post which you replied to and which I will counter reply to next.



You really think us normal Christians are a bunch of whiney imbeciles dont you?

You guys are extremely snobby in my opinion. I can imagine Calvinists get together late at night over some warm whiskey thinking up ways that they can be different and superior to the rest of Christendom.

Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather hang out with the hookers and the tax collecters. At least theres the chance that someone can be shown the Gospel and saved there! LOLZ!

I am not going to respond to the straw man you have imagined because to do so would only give it legitimacy. But I will answer your assertion that we have no reason to preach the Gospel. We preach the Gospel to all for the following reasons: 1. We don't know who the elect are in this world since they don't carry a sign or have a tattoo saying that they are elect. We do know that they are out there though and will hear the Gospel at some point. We can actually preach with confidence that the power of the Gospel will reach the hearts of some folks because it doesn't depend on our eloquence or ability to make the message palatable and believable to the sinner it depends on God. We simply declare the message we don't make it powerful. The non-calvinist has no such confidence. He must strive to wring a decision out of folks by whatever means he can. The power of the gospel he preaches depends on his ability to present it.
2. We preach because we know what it is to be a sinner in need of mercy and, contrary to what you may imagine, do love people and desire that they know the mercy of God in Christ. With everything that is in me I desire that folks come to know Him whom to know is everlasting life. I don't desire to get them to make a decision I desire to point them to Christ. I want others to know Him as I know Him because knowing Him is life and peace.
3. We are commanded to preach the Gospel.

 

[mlqurgw]

Because your starting to feel exposed and that you might be wrong about something big.

NateDog has you in check, and is 3 pawns, a bishop and a rook up on you.

Your move. Take your time.

I have every confidence in what I believe and rest my soul on its truthfulness. I fear nothing that man can do. You and others are free to give it your best shot. This ain't my first rodeo and I didn't just fall of the turnip truck. I have been around the block a few times and know a trap when I see it. Your bait will not not entice me to fall into it. Sorry.

 

[Strangelove]

I have every confidence in what I believe and rest my soul on its truthfulness. I fear nothing that man can do. You and others are free to give it your best shot. This ain't my first rodeo and I didn't just fall of the turnip truck. I have been around the block a few times and know a trap when I see it. Your bait will not not entice me to fall into it. Sorry.

So if you have all confidence then just answer Nate's question.

Why are you hiding the red flag from the bull cowboy? Scared he might charge? :shocked!

 

[mlqurgw]

That doesn't make any sense. God's plan is with the Kingdom of God AND in the physical world you live in. So why bother voting if God is gonna do as He pleases anyway?

The only one it doesn't make sense to is you I am afraid. You are so blinded by your preconceived notions of what calvinism is that you just can't get past them. You have built a straw man and called it calvinism and then proceed to tear it apart. The only problem with it is that the straw man doesn't even resemble what Calvinisn actually is and you seem unwilling to be honest enough to find out. Hang on to your straw man if you desire. As long as you do I will not waste my time trying to set you straight on what we actually believe. But if you do desire to deal with what we believe honestly then ask whatever questions you like and I will do my best to answer them. But I will not fight a straw man.