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The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Are you of the Calvinist doctrine.......NO FREE WILL ?

I always have to ask because unless I see clear evidence as with SavedbyGrace I'm just not sure.

Thanks
Hello Deborah,
I am often a little concerned about the question "are you a Calvinist." It is a fair question because it is kind of a theological short hand. The problem is that so few non-Calvinists understand what the term means. I attend a Reformed Baptist Church and am in agreement for the most part with the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

Concerning free will, that is also a complex question since often, so many people define free will as "the ability to choose." I would agree that we have the ability too choose. I get up and choose what shoe to put on first and what kind of breakfast I want to eat. I agree that we have the ability to choose any path of sin we desire, but because our nature so loves sin, we always desire sin and rebellion. It is only by the grace of God in regeneration that we will choose faith.
John 6:44 says: "No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."
Notice the bold part of that verse. The greek word for "can" speaks of ability. While we cannot choose Christ without the drawing of the Father, we can choose our breakfast. We can choose to rebel against Christ. In John 6:44, God draws, we choose, and then we are saved. You can see that the concept of resurrection in verse 44 is related only to the saved. Notice the same reference to "raised up on the last day" is found also in verse 40:
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. So then, all those raised up to salvation were drawn by the Father, and all of those drawn by the Father were not able to come to Christ, but did by the power of the Fathers drawing.

And then the Father gets the glory.

Deborah13, this issue goes back long before Calvin. Pelagius vs Augustine had similar discussions. Luther wrote on the "Bondage of the Will" against the Roman Catholic scholar Erasmus of Rotterdam. That was before Calvin. There are issues of original sin, or sin nature that have to do with this discussion. There are also differing views on "prevenient grace." In my opinion, the issue revolves more around the concept and place of regeneration than anything else. There seems to be 3 positions....
1---Regeneration is for the elect only and unfailingly causes the faith of believers.
2---Universal Regeneration sometimes causes the faith of believers
3---Faith can come without any previenient work of grace.

The concept of a "limited atonement" is also very much misunderstood. In fact the term itself is a very bad term which causes much misunderstanding. A better term might be "Full Atonement." Above, a full and complete atonement is found only in #1. Only #1 leads unfailingly to salvation. In #2 and #3, Christ did not die to save anyone, but rather he provides only a possibility of salvation. Would you not agree that #2 and #3 are far more limited in their power to save? Actually, the non-Calvinists deserve the term "limited atonement" far more then the Calvinists do.
 
Nope Belief is Not a work, Belief is not some righteous work that we do in order to earn our way to heaven. Belief is in the heart it is not self-righteous therefore is does not give us a reason to boast.

Deb, how would you read the bolded part this verse?
Heb 11:6 and without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.
Specifically, is our faith "well-pleasing" to God?

Also, you might want to comment on Romans 8:7-8.
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
Rom 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
Actually, the non-Calvinists deserve the term "limited atonement" far more then the Calvinists do.
Most Calvinists actually prefer the term "definite atonement." Other terms found in the literature virtually synonymous with the concept are: "particular atonement", "particular redemption", and in a strict sense, "penal substitutionary atonement."
source: http://www.theopedia.com/Definite_atonement

Good thing to know because while I embrace the doctrine of limited atonement, I am not Calvinist so I will keep using that term.
 
Hello Deborah,
I am often a little concerned about the question "are you a Calvinist." It is a fair question because it is kind of a theological short hand. The problem is that so few non-Calvinists understand what the term means. I attend a Reformed Baptist Church and am in agreement for the most part with the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

Concerning free will, that is also a complex question since often, so many people define free will as "the ability to choose." I would agree that we have the ability too choose. I get up and choose what shoe to put on first and what kind of breakfast I want to eat. I agree that we have the ability to choose any path of sin we desire, but because our nature so loves sin, we always desire sin and rebellion. It is only by the grace of God in regeneration that we will choose faith.
John 6:44 says: "No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."
Notice the bold part of that verse. The greek word for "can" speaks of ability. While we cannot choose Christ without the drawing of the Father, we can choose our breakfast. We can choose to rebel against Christ. In John 6:44, God draws, we choose, and then we are saved. You can see that the concept of resurrection in verse 44 is related only to the saved. Notice the same reference to "raised up on the last day" is found also in verse 40:
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. So then, all those raised up to salvation were drawn by the Father, and all of those drawn by the Father were not able to come to Christ, but did by the power of the Fathers drawing.

And then the Father gets the glory.

Deborah13, this issue goes back long before Calvin. Pelagius vs Augustine had similar discussions. Luther wrote on the "Bondage of the Will" against the Roman Catholic scholar Erasmus of Rotterdam. That was before Calvin. There are issues of original sin, or sin nature that have to do with this discussion. There are also differing views on "prevenient grace." In my opinion, the issue revolves more around the concept and place of regeneration than anything else. There seems to be 3 positions....
1---Regeneration is for the elect only and unfailingly causes the faith of believers.
2---Universal Regeneration sometimes causes the faith of believers
3---Faith can come without any previenient work of grace.

The concept of a "limited atonement" is also very much misunderstood. In fact the term itself is a very bad term which causes much misunderstanding. A better term might be "Full Atonement." Above, a full and complete atonement is found only in #1. Only #1 leads unfailingly to salvation. In #2 and #3, Christ did not die to save anyone, but rather he provides only a possibility of salvation. Would you not agree that #2 and #3 are far more limited in their power to save? Actually, the non-Calvinists deserve the term "limited atonement" far more then the Calvinists do.

So the short answer is yes.
 
Most Calvinists actually prefer the term "definite atonement." Other terms found in the literature virtually synonymous with the concept are: "particular atonement", "particular redemption", and in a strict sense, "penal substitutionary atonement."
source: http://www.theopedia.com/Definite_atonement

Good thing to know because while I embrace the doctrine of limited atonement, I am not Calvinist so I will keep using that term.

So you are you saying that you do not believe that when we are drawn by the Holy Spirit that there is anyway we could turn away and not be saved? No free will to receive or not?

A simple yes free will or no free will is fine, I don't need an explanation unless you want to provide one. Please no silly things like putting on shoes.
 
mark



Yes necessarily !

1 Timothy : 2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

This is consistent with John 3:16 that 'whoever believes in him should not perish' and John 3:17 'For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.'

So Paul says God our Saviour desires all men to be saved.
 
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1 Timothy : 2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

This is consistent with John 3:16 that 'whoever believes in him should not perish' and John 3:17 'For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.'

So Paul says God our Saviour desires all men to be saved.

Mark, "desires" does not mean "ordains" or else the whole world is de facto saved. Don't you think so?
 
DESIRE - de-zir': The verb "to desire" in the Scriptures usually means "to long for," "to ask for," "to demand," and may be used in a good or bad sense (compare Dt 7:25 the King James Version). the Revised Version (British and American) frequently renders the more literal meaning of the Hebrew. Compare Job 20:20, "delight"; Prov 21:20, "precious"; Ps 40:6, "delight"; aiteo (except Col 1:9), and erotao (except Lk 7:36) are rendered "to ask" and zeteo, "to seek


So Paul says God our Saviour desires all men to be saved.
:amen


The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
is not a myth but fact :readbible
 
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DESIRE - de-zir': The verb "to desire" in the Scriptures usually means "to long for," "to ask for," "to demand," and may be used in a good or bad sense (compare Dt 7:25 the King James Version). the Revised Version (British and American) frequently renders the more literal meaning of the Hebrew. Compare Job 20:20, "delight"; Prov 21:20, "precious"; Ps 40:6, "delight"; aiteo (except Col 1:9), and erotao (except Lk 7:36) are rendered "to ask" and zeteo, "to seek


:amen

Ezra, I am not questioning that, the question is whether Jesus' sacrifice provided limited or unlimited atonement.

Universal (or unlimited) atonement is the view that Christ's work makes redemption possible for all but certain for none. According to this doctrine, whatever Christ accomplished on the cross, he accomplished for all alike – those who are finally saved as well as those who are finally lost. This view is contrasted to the Reformed doctrine of limited (or definite) atonement (http://www.theopedia.com/Universal_atonement)
 
full atonement the who so ever will... or shall..the biggest problem we have today is to many are out there arguing scriptures on who can and can not be saved. ======division..Jesus died for all. will all be saved? no does he want all to be saved? yes his LOVE kept him on the cross . no greater love --John 15:13
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends..instead of reformed we need transformed by the renewing of our minds...
 
full atonement the who so ever will... or shall
I don't understand what you're saying here.


the biggest problem we have today is to many are out there arguing scriptures on who can and can not be saved. ======division..
That may be a problem, but it is not the problem defined by OP.

Jesus died for all.
will all be saved? no
You mean that non-believers go to Hell with sins actually atoned for.
What kind of atonement is this?

does he want all to be saved? yes
That's not being argued by OP to my knowledge.
 
Mark, "desires" does not mean "ordains" or else the whole world is de facto saved. Don't you think so?

The Scripture says, Proverbs 16:9 'A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps'. So the only thing God does not do is control our minds.

God gives men a spirit of understanding according to his will; it's the spirit in a man that causes him to understand. And we have the words of the apostles and the Scriptures.

We have to be told to love God, to do unto others, etc. We have to be taught. That's why we have a Teacher. Certainly God can lead us; he can keep us from evil happening to us. God controls events, like his Sons death. But he does not control our minds. And man is evil and corrupt already. Plus we have Satan to contend with, and he is the ruler of this world; only for a time of course. So what are you going to do? Men have corrupted themselves. They have become haters of God, lovers of self, etc. So even though God desires all men to be saved, the blasphemers and the haters of God hate God and they hate his Son; they take evil for good and good for evil. In their minds they are the good guys and God is a monster. They don't want any part of his kingdom; no evil doers or causes of sin in the kingdom. They hate that.
 
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You mean that non-believers go to Hell with sins actually atoned for.
What kind of atonement is this?
jesus tasted death for every body...the payment for our sins was paid for at the cross............. period all we have to do is accept the free gift.. GOD gives us the choice. Romans 5:6-11
New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ in Our Place

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. once again the price has been paid:amen
 
it is not a myth, but a truth and reality, here are the proofs for that:

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.",

Luke 9:55 "the Son of man is not come(i.e. does never come) to destroy men's lives, but to(i.e. but He always comes (in order) to) save them.",

Matthew 18:10-14 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones(i.e. anyone of the humans); for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones(i.e. that any human) should perish.",

John 12:49 "I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.",

John 14:6-11 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.",

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.",

1 John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.",

1 Timothy 2:1-10 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks(i.e. blessings), be made for all men(i.e. for all humans); For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty(i.e. in all goodness and earnestness). For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men(i.e. all humans/souls) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(i.e. and to become good/righteous). For there is one God, and one mediator(also: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(i.e. the ensouled being) Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men(i.e. that the male believers) pray every where, lifting up holy hands(i.e. entirely showing/manifesting love/goodness), without wrath(i.e. without hostility/aggression) and doubting(i.e. and dramatization/stir/intrigues/strife). In like manner also, that women(i.e. that female believers) adorn themselves in modest apparel(i.e. in humility), with shamefacedness(i.e. with meekness) and sobriety(i.e. and sedation/sanity); not with broided hair(i.e. not with pride), or gold(i.e. or vainglory), or pearls(i.e. or wisdom), or costly array(i.e. or elevation); But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.",

Luke 18:27 "And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.",

Galatians 5:6-14 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision(i.e. neither the human implementation of the old testament i.e. which is not by right faith) availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision(i.e. nor whatever human(666) spirituality/religion); but faith which worketh by love..... For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

all humans are created of God the Father at least via the biological processes of embryonic formation in the wombs of their mothers, so all people are our brethren and neighbours

Blessings
 
I don't understand what you're saying here.



That may be a problem, but it is not the problem defined by OP.


You mean that non-believers go to Hell with sins actually atoned for.
What kind of atonement is this?


That's not being argued by OP to my knowledge.

Nonbelievers are going to Hell because.....they do not believe that Jesus is the Savior, Redeemer, Lord.
 
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