The nation of Israel was given the Law,and it was never given to the the Gentiles

[Grubal Muruch]

You apparently didn't read the scripture I cited. It is clearly meant to shut up 'every' mouth and make 'all the world' guilty of sin before God, delivery notwithstanding.

Could provide several. But that would depend on your depth of understanding 'the law.' You understand for example that the law says to love your neighbors as yourself. Jesus cited this law many times. So did Paul and specifically to GENTILES. So, you desire to throw away the entire fulcrum of this LAW because you are not a Jew?

LOL.

Problem with the Law is that most believers buy their understandings from somebody else without putting much of their own time into it other than being a theological parrot for some segmentist.

You again will admit to being a sinner, which means A LAWLESS LAWBREAKER but don't want the measuring stick that proves it? LOL

Adam was 'under the Law' as well. That Law was DO NOT EAT. What happened to Adam under that law was not one whit different than what happens to us, just as Paul taught us here, and fwiw we do not throw out or throw away that which is holy, righteous and good. You might also notice that 'we' also were 'in the flesh' prior to being led of the Spirit.

Romans 7:
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


The Law is the exact instrument of our SLAYING in the flesh that we may LIVE unto Christ!


The Law is also Gods Word. We RESPECT Gods Words. We don't THROW THEM AWAY.

In the Prophet(s) who delivered the Law, primarily Moses, it was in fact CHRIST speaking THROUGH THEM!

The Law in the form of a good conscience was also put into the hearts of everyone.

Seriously dude, you need to brush up.

Romans 2:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,

You see, you don't need to be 'under the delivered Law to the Jews' when you are in compliance with same. If you don't MURDER you are in fact OBEYING the LAW.

Granted, the Law for Jews is much more interesting and complex, but again, ALL of that Law is in fact written in the hearts of mankind everywhere when they DO GOOD AND RIGHT.

And when they don't THEY ARE LAWBREAKERS!

enjoy!

smaller

smaller---Check out what I said to "webb" on this same thread, it apply's to you as well... I'm looking to share, not to argue and fuss...Thanks...

 

[Webb]

Hi Grubal

Knowing my heart, your judgment of it is mis-guided. You have made comments I find without biblical foundation. I have simply asked for proof and you have not been forthcoming. However, I find this is always the position taken by those in religion who have no scriptural basis for answer. If a man, any man, makes religious comments, he, according to bro Peter should be willing and "READY ALWAYS TO GIVE AN ANSWER TO EVERY MAN THAT ASKETH KYOU A REASON OF THE HOPE THAT IS IN YOU WITH MEEKNESS AND FEAR", I Pet. 3:15.

God bless

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Hi Grubal

Knowing my heart, your judgment of it is mis-guided. You have made comments I find without biblical foundation. I have simply asked for proof and you have not been forthcoming. However, I find this is always the position taken by those in religion who have no scriptural basis for answer. If a man, any man, makes religious comments, he, according to bro Peter should be willing and "READY ALWAYS TO GIVE AN ANSWER TO EVERY MAN THAT ASKETH KYOU A REASON OF THE HOPE THAT IS IN YOU WITH MEEKNESS AND FEAR", I Pet. 3:15.

God bless

I stand by my "assessment" of your intent. It still applies...

 

[Webb]

As you wish sir, as you wish, and God bless

 

[Adullam]

God's laws were given to (the chosen of God) the nation of Israel. The "gentiles" (the rest of us) were never given the law, nor were we "expected" to follow the law...After Christ died for the sins of the world, gentile believers were "grafted" in, and made fellow heirs in Christ, and have the promises and blessings through the covenant between God and Abraham through the lineage of Jacob...Although the gentile believers were not held accountable to the law of Moses, they were given some "rules" to live by, "Acts 15:29" says---That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. Salvation for the gentiles is "based" upon the premise of, Acts 16:31---"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Our faith is necessary (for the gentile) in order to be saved...That's the "ONLY" Prerequisite...

There is no difference between Jew or Greek concerning God. God is neither Jewish nor Gentile. Becoming a true partaker in Christ supercedes any fleshly distinctions we may recognize...Jew or Gentile, male or female, rich or poor, slave or free, mac user or pc user, etc....

 

[Sinthesis]

There is no difference between Jew or Greek concerning God. God is neither Jewish nor Gentile. Becoming a true partaker in Christ supercedes any fleshly distinctions we may recognize...Jew or Gentile, male or female, rich or poor, slave or free, mac user or pc user, etc....

Conservative or Liberal?

 

[glorydaz]

Hi Grubal
In post 8 you wrote: ''WE 'CANNOT' TRULY REPENT UNTIL WE RECEIVE THE HOLLY SPIRIT INTO OUR LIVES'. Can you provide at least ONE scripture in the NT which teaches this?

The Jews required a sign...thus the water baptism of repentance toward God. It was the outer cleansing that was required of the Jews because of the Old Covenant. They were then able to partake of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as part of the New Covenant through faith in Christ.

True repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit...the flesh is cut away from the heart by the Holy Spirit. That isn't something man can do.

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This "godly sorrow" can only come from God.
God worketh true repentance by giving man a new heart to follow Him.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

This circumcision can only be done by God....notice it speaks to "rebellion".

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

True, Peter in Acts 2 was speaking to Jews. The context clearly shows this. However, vs. 39 reads: "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." I shall take the position (which I am persuaded is the scriptural postion) that the "AFAR OFF'' includes the gentile as well and if not WHY NOT? The verse further reads: ''EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL.'' II Thes. 2:14 verifies we are called by the gospel. Jesus in Mk.16:15,16 declared: "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." "All the world" surely includes the gentile, if not WHY NOT? Then, Jesus said "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved---". The point is, the gospel includes the gentile and the gentile is to be baptized as well as the Jew and there is much more to be presented on this matter.

The gospel came to the Jews first, and then of course the gentiles were included. But the gentiles weren't required to have the circumcision of the flesh...but of the heart. John the Baptist came to prepare the way of the Lord. He baptised with water, not unto salvation, but unto the ritual purifying of the flesh.

You wrote in post 13: ''---THE GENTILES WERE ASKED ONLY TO, BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THEY WOULD BE SAVED." Where, may I ask, is this taught in the scripture? I cannot find it. Then you continiued in the same paragraph: ''THERE WAS NO NEED FOR 'WATER BAPTISM,' OR 'WORKS' OF REPENTANCE AS THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL WERE TO DO---THE GENTILE ONLY HAD TO BELIEVE---.'' Where also, is this statement verified by scripture? The household of Cornelius (he being a gentile) was commanded to be baptized in water, Acts 10:48. Furthermore, there was repentance embraced in his household.

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Water baptism was not forbidden for the gentiles, and many believers do partake of the water baptisim, but it is an outward sign of obedience and proclamation of faith....not for salvation itself.

 

[glorydaz]

You will readily admit that the law still proves we are all sinners, even after salvation, right?

s

For the believer, there is no condemnation under the law.

We are no longer under the law, but under grace.
The New Covenant. Declared righteous by faith.

So, NO. We are not still "sinners", we are "saints," IF we have been born again of God.

Whatsoever God declares is so, is it not? As members of the body of Christ we are holy, as He is holy.

 

[glorydaz]

Repentance to me, carry's the idea of "a change of mind" I'm going this way (according to the flesh) and now, I'm willing to turn from my sins and live in obedience towards God. We "cannot" truly repent until we receive the Holy Spirit into our lives. The Spirit is able to give us the power we don't have, before we receive Christ as Lord and Savior...

Amen, brother.
"A change of mind" indeed. We put on the mind of Christ... "we have the mind of Christ."


We've been given a new heart...we are new creatures. No longer rebellious toward God.
(Deut. 10:16) -Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The Jews required a sign...thus the water baptism of repentance toward God. It was the outer cleansing that was required of the Jews because of the Old Covenant. They were then able to partake of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as part of the New Covenant through faith in Christ.

True repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit...the flesh is cut away from the heart by the Holy Spirit. That isn't something man can do.

This "godly sorrow" can only come from God.
God worketh true repentance by giving man a new heart to follow Him.






The gospel came to the Jews first, and then of course the gentiles were included. But the gentiles weren't required to have the circumcision of the flesh...but of the heart. John the Baptist came to prepare the way of the Lord. He baptised with water, not unto salvation, but unto the ritual purifying of the flesh.






Water baptism was not forbidden for the gentiles, and many believers do partake of the water baptisim, but it is an outward sign of obedience and proclamation of faith....not for salvation itself.

AMEN Glory You did "excellent" as usual...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

For the believer, there is no condemnation under the law.

We are no longer under the law, but under grace.
The New Covenant. Declared righteous by faith.

So, NO. We are not still "sinners", we are "saints," IF we have been born again of God.

Whatsoever God declares is so, is it not? As members of the body of Christ we are holy, as He is holy.

GREAT Glory, just GREAT...

 

[Adullam]

Conservative or Liberal?

Neither!

 

[childeye]

The Law has always been against 'all' lawlessness in whomever it is found.

Murder is no more sanctioned under grace than law, therefore there is no difference.

Paul taught this about 'the law' and 'whom' it is for. In short if you have 'a mouth' and you are located somewhere in 'all the world' the law is for YOU.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The law is the measurement of SIN and ALL are sinners. The law proves the fact that all are in fact lawless as measured under the Laws Perfect requirements.

Christians who decry the law do so acknowledging their SIN, but denying the measuring stick that proved SIN as if it somehow is no longer valid AGAINST sin.

Grace and Law remain steadfastly AGAINST ALL SIN, period.

Grace is not an excuse for SIN nor is LAW.

Now eat yer humble pie and deal with the fact that you have issues. Just because one splatters GRACE across their face that is not a license to SIN.

In fact SIN is and remains AN INSULT to GRACE.

Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

What is SIN?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

enjoy!

s

This is well said smaller. You have efectively removed all semantics involved the way you put it. A completely objective view.

 

[Webb]

GLORYDAZ conmmenting on "water baptism" in post #27 wrote: "---it is an OUTSIDE SIGN of obedience and proclamation of faith---not for salvation itself."

What scripture or scriptures teach the above?

 

[glorydaz]

GLORYDAZ conmmenting on "water baptism" in post #27 wrote: "---it is an OUTSIDE SIGN of obedience and proclamation of faith---not for salvation itself."

What scripture or scriptures teach the above?

There are many portions of scripture that deal with this subject, and it's necessary to look at the OT for why the baptism of repentance came through John. If you want just one verse, you may not find it, but we're to take the whole Word of God to find the whole Truth. The question needs to be asked, why John was sent.

We see the baptism of repentance, like the Old Covenant was for the Jews. Acts 13:24 - "When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel."

John said this, "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." (Mark 1:8)

Heb. 9:10 - When speaking of the OT rituals..."Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." The word "washings" here is baptismos....so the Jews were very aware of the way to be purified under the law. In John 3:25-26, the Jews were cognizant of the use of water in purification "Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. - And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him."

John answers them in v. 30, 31, "He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all." John taught a baptism of cleansing and was but a "picture" or example of the cleansing to come through the Holy Spirit. We would have a clean heart.

John's baptism, like the Old Covenant, was passing away. Until the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, "that cometh from above" could not be given. Hence water baptism was a sign of the greater baptism to come. Just as it was for the Israelites in the wilderness....(1 Cor 10:1-2) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and Paul goes on to say these were for our examples.

Here we see Paul comparing repentance with circumcision....John's baptism of repentance was a picture of the circumcision of the flesh. Baptism of the Spirit is true repentance (circumcision of the heart.)
Col. 2:11-12 - In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Water baptism for the born again believer is a symbolic re-creation of their death, burial, and resurrection in Christ. As the Lord's Supper is done for the purpose of remembrance...water baptism is an outward sign to all the church that you are the Lord's. It's a way to publicly stand for Christ.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

There are many portions of scripture that deal with this subject, and it's necessary to look at the OT for why the baptism of repentance came through John. If you want just one verse, you may not find it, but we're to take the whole Word of God to find the whole Truth. The question needs to be asked, why John was sent.

We see the baptism of repentance, like the Old Covenant was for the Jews. Acts 13:24 - "When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel."

John said this, "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." (Mark 1:8)

Heb. 9:10 - When speaking of the OT rituals..."Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." The word "washings" here is baptismos....so the Jews were very aware of the way to be purified under the law. In John 3:25-26, the Jews were cognizant of the use of water in purification "Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. - And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him."

John answers them in v. 30, 31, "He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all." John taught a baptism of cleansing and was but a "picture" or example of the cleansing to come through the Holy Spirit. We would have a clean heart.

John's baptism, like the Old Covenant, was passing away. Until the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, "that cometh from above" could not be given. Hence water baptism was a sign of the greater baptism to come. Just as it was for the Israelites in the wilderness....(1 Cor 10:1-2) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and Paul goes on to say these were for our examples.

Here we see Paul comparing repentance with circumcision....John's baptism of repentance was a picture of the circumcision of the flesh. Baptism of the Spirit is true repentance (circumcision of the heart.)
Col. 2:11-12 - In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Water baptism for the born again believer is a symbolic re-creation of their death, burial, and resurrection in Christ. As the Lord's Supper is done for the purpose of remembrance...water baptism is an outward sign to all the church that you are the Lord's. It's a way to publicly stand for Christ.

Tremendous Truth Glory...

 

[Webb]

Hi Glorydaz

Very true, we must talke all the scripture supplies before drawing a conclusion. I refer however, not to John's baptism for it's purpose had ended by the time of Acts 19 where it is shown so clearly so. I refer to the reference in Mark 16:15,16 and Acts 2:38 eg.

 

[smaller]

smaller---Check out what I said to "webb" on this same thread, it apply's to you as well... I'm looking to share, not to argue and fuss...Thanks...

spin it away however you want...

Your claim was to toss the LAW as inapplicable to GENTILES, even after shown otherwise from the scriptures.

I understand 'why'

Everyone has lawlessness within them and that working will not and can not submit to Gods Laws, period

Romans 8:7
Because the carnalmind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Every carnal mind tracks the same way on this subject matter.

s

 

[Grubal Muruch]

spin it away however you want...

Your claim was to toss the LAW as inapplicable to GENTILES, even after shown otherwise from the scriptures.

I understand 'why'

Everyone has lawlessness within them and that working will not and can not submit to Gods Laws, period

Romans 8:7
Because the carnalmind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Every carnal mind tracks the same way on this subject matter.

s

Oh...

 

[glorydaz]

Hi Glorydaz

Very true, we must talke all the scripture supplies before drawing a conclusion. I refer however, not to John's baptism for it's purpose had ended by the time of Acts 19 where it is shown so clearly so. I refer to the reference in Mark 16:15,16 and Acts 2:38 eg.

These are both referring to the Jews who were to give an outward profession of their acceptance of the Gospel message of Jesus Christ. In Mark the baptism of the Holy Spirit had not been given and the disciples, themselves, didn't understand it. They were still teaching John's baptism. At Pentecost, the gospel still had not been preached to the gentiles, and all the Jews from all those foreign lands still were to make a public display of their belief in Jesus Christ.