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The obedience of faith

Note I deleted the quote of mine you used because you used only a small portion of it to diminished what I said to make your reply. Use my whole quote, or the points I made, or kindly don't use them.

As to what you have here, I seems you follow universalism? You believe all men are saved. That right?

I will not use them . My point still remains, the god you serve is quite different from the One I serve, you see, the One I serve, what He desires, He does. Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

You stated that your god makes a exception here and that there are people he desires to be saved, but he will not do it !

As to what you have here, I seems you follow
universalism?

I believe that is false doctrine !

You believe all men are saved.

All the Elect of God, they are the only ones My God wants to be saved. All merely means all sorts of men, jew, gentile, black , white, rich , poor, bond , free and etc.

My God's Elect are found in all those different sorts ! And His Son came to seek and to save them, and He was Successful.

What is the testimony of the jesus you serve ? Was he successful in seeking and saving that which was lost ?
 
I will not use them . My point still remains, the god you serve is quite different from the One I serve, you see, the One I serve, what He desires, He does. Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

You stated that your god makes a exception here and that there are people he desires to be saved, but he will not do it !



I believe that is false doctrine !



All the Elect of God, they are the only ones My God wants to be saved. All merely means all sorts of men, jew, gentile, black , white, rich , poor, bond , free and etc.

My God's Elect are found in all those different sorts ! And His Son came to seek and to save them, and He was Successful.

What is the testimony of the jesus you serve ? Was he successful in seeking and saving that which was lost ?

Ah, your addressing only the elect. I agree. Only the elect chosen by God are saved, and every last one will be saved. I thought I made my position clear.

I am addressing ALL mankind in this thread, because that's what most people want to address. Either you misunderstood me, or you looked for any words you could find to attempt to trap me into a debate. So I have some questions for you.

1. How do the non-elect obey faith.

2. Are there elect that do not know they are elect.

3. Does it matter that some elect are walking around preaching the gospel and they don't know they are elect, or preaching to the non-elcet and elect :)

One more, 4. Do you think some non elect are calling themselves Christians & preaching the word?
 
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danus

Ah, your addressing only the elect. I agree.

I see no agreement between you and i. You said your god wishes and desires the salvation of many that will not be saved, correct me if i'm wrong !

My God what He wishes, or desires He does it Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Also you evaded a very important question, here it is again !

What is the testimony of the jesus you serve ? Was he successful in seeking and saving that which was lost ? as in Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now, the Jesus I know and serve sought and saved all that was Lost, how about yours ?
 
danus



I see no agreement between you and i. You said your god wishes and desires the salvation of many that will not be saved, correct me if i'm wrong !

My God what He wishes, or desires He does it Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Also you evaded a very important question, here it is again !

What is the testimony of the jesus you serve ? Was he successful in seeking and saving that which was lost ? as in Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now, the Jesus I know and serve sought and saved all that was Lost, how about yours ?

I am a Reformed Protestant in the classic sense if that helps you understand my views. If not, no big deal.

I'm not sure why you're drawing me into this discussion, or what you have picked out of my post that you take issue with. You're not very clear; certainly not engaging. I'm not convinced you're even reading my responses, much less trying to draw any logical conclusion. We've had several exchanges. I've made the best attempt I think I can, but at this point I'll have to dismiss my involvement since I'm not sure what your addressing. I don't need to know.

But please note, there are many Christians on this forum who hold to different doctrines, understandings and theologies. Some are Catholic, some are Armenian in their theology, some are more Calvinistic, or hold to some variation of both. Some are even mystic, or more supernatural in their theology, and some don't really have a solid understanding of what they understand of theology.

This is the Apologetics and Theology section of this forum regarding Christianity. We are all talking about God, and Jesus of the bible, when we say God or Jesus.You want to say people worship different God's and Jesus' by definition, I understand that, but I find that unnecessarily abrasive, and an unyielding attempt to understand others, that does not facilitate a conversation, much less a debate. (My God, Your God) I can't entertain that.

Dose God seek the lost? Sure he does.
 
danus

I am a Reformed Protestant in the classic sense if that helps you understand
my views.

Thats all well and good what you call yourself, but I am merely going by your posts to judge what you believe.

And could you please answer my questions or I will consider this over between you and i sir !

Dose God seek the lost? Sure he does.

Sorry, that was not my question, here it is again !

What is the testimony of the jesus you serve ? Was he successful in seeking and saving that which was lost ? as in Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now, the Jesus I know and serve sought and saved all that was Lost, how about yours ?
 
Ah, your addressing only the elect. I agree. Only the elect chosen by God are saved, and every last one will be saved. I thought I made my position clear.

Hope you don't mind me chiming in a little late, but are you saying you believe that God has predestined (already chosen even before their birth) that they are his "elect"? and that some come into the world not being his elect?
 
Hope you don't mind me chiming in a little late, but are you saying you believe that God has predestined (already chosen even before their birth) that they are his "elect"? and that some come into the world not being his elect?

Don't mind at all.

The saved are the chosen elect by God, predestined of the will of God. We'll need to work any discussion on this into the OP so we don't get off topic. It's easy to stray from the OP if we're not careful.
 
Don't mind at all.

The saved are the chosen elect by God, predestined of the will of God. We'll need to work any discussion on this into the OP so we don't get off topic. It's easy to stray from the OP if we're not careful.

I don't believe it is off topic to ask, or address this, your stance if I understand you says some are born destined to be elect, others it is a requirement of obedience, and this is where I don't see the logic...

If some are predestined, and some are not, and this is a decision that could only be made by God, then if this were true, what do we do with this verse:

Acts 10:34 (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
 
I don't believe it is off topic to ask, or address this, your stance if I understand you says some are born destined to be elect, others it is a requirement of obedience, and this is where I don't see the logic...

If some are predestined, and some are not, and this is a decision that could only be made by God, then if this were true, what do we do with this verse:

Acts 10:34 (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

We can talk about it, I just want to make sure we are weaving whatever we talk about into the OP. Luckily the OP is ambiguously stated, because when we talk about faith and obedience, we are sort of drawing a line between what mankind is capable of and what he is not.

So that we are clear, I will say that mankind is not capable of having faith of his own. He is not born with it, does not desire it, know it, have it, muster it....or whatever on his own. It is a pure gift of God to those whom God chooses to receive it.

The good news is that no one has to understand this. It's not required in any way, but it is puzzling and presents a huge problem in our minds, especially when we try to apply it to scripture. Not because scripture does not agree with it, but because it does. Is it true? that God would choose some and not others? I say it is. Many say it is not. Those who say it is not have several reasons and motivating factors for saying that. Some say it does not seem fair that God would do this. To that I say it is just. God is about Justice, and to be fair he should not save anyone. Just end the bible after Gen 3 and we're done. Banished from the garden to death. But, that's not the whole story is it?

Some say a loving God would not just choose some. But I say a Loving God would choose just one. He does not just choose some, he chooses many. Some, many, what is that to anyone saved? It's nothing to anyone not saved.

Some will say that he wants all to be saved. We'll he does, but all are not saved are they?

So lets tackle that verse and see how it fits to predestination, or disproves it.

I like the NIV BTW. "I Like the way it talks um-hum."
New International Version (NIV)
Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism. .....and we'll add the next line for good measure..... 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

This is not saying that God shows favoritism in whom he chooses. That's what it is saying, and because of that it says this to qualify the next line, which some read as a qualification for whom God chooses even after Peter says he does not show favoritism.

Let's rewrite this the way many people read it. God does not show favoritism. anyone who does right and fears him he accepts regardless of who they are....as long as they fear him and do right. What's wrong with that statement? It's a negative statement. That's like Henry Ford saying you can get any color model T you want, as long as it's black.

I agree with Peter, because If I have faith God will give it to anyone. If he will save me he can save anyone.

So ask this question, do you deserve salvation? Have you done anything special for it? If you say you have then you can't really say that God does not show favoritism since you'd be saying you did something then you where saved. But, if you say you don't deserve salvation and you did not do anything special for it, then Peter is right. He does not show favoritism, but Love, mercy and forgiveness.

To repent, means to know you are a sinner. otherwise you've nothing to repent. But, to know you are a sinner is to have faith first because you have to have something to compare your sin to first.
 
Don't mind at all.

The saved are the chosen elect by God, predestined of the will of God. We'll need to work any discussion on this into the OP so we don't get off topic. It's easy to stray from the OP if we're not careful.

The elect are they who rule with Christ in the next age...as the bride of Christ.

The saved are those who are ruled over by the saints in the next age.

God is merciful. Ironically it is much harder to to saved if we claim to be saved...unless we can back it up with a perfect holiness by abiding in Christ.

The biggest problem I see with believers is that so many claim to be righteous because of their own beliefs. We have gone from the Pharisees claiming to be righteous through their keeping the laws of Moses....to a self-justification through a self acceptance that our beliefs make us right with God.

But where is the reality?

The Laodiceans are doing the same thing...claiming all kinds of things like they are clean, rich and in need of nothing through their beliefs (Laodicea means the people's opinions)

So this is where we are now...it is the sign of the times.

Where is the manifestation of God towards the world around us? Do we want to bring others into the same delusion as ourselves? Albeit a delusion that comes from the truth...although misunderstood.
 
Salvation is by faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8,9). When a person believes, the grace of God works in his or her heart so that they believe the Gospel. It's not an earned merit.

We know that the Lord Jesus Christ is that TRUE LIGHT which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. so would you say that God works in every man's heart ?

I do agree that salvation is without merit.. it is not earned.
 
I like the NIV BTW. "I Like the way it talks um-hum."
New International Version (NIV)
Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism. .....and we'll add the next line for good measure..... 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

This is not saying that God shows favoritism in whom he chooses. That's what it is saying, and because of that it says this to qualify the next line, which some read as a qualification for whom God chooses even after Peter says he does not show favoritism.

Let's rewrite this the way many people read it. God does not show favoritism. anyone who does right and fears him he accepts regardless of who they are....as long as they fear him and do right. What's wrong with that statement? It's a negative statement. That's like Henry Ford saying you can get any color model T you want, as long as it's black.

I had to cut much out of the post you made because it blurred the scope of the question, and the answer...

The part you said "this is the way many people read it" is correct, that is because that is what it says...

Acts 10:34-35 (KJV) 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Peter makes a statement "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"

This is qualifying the fact that he wishes all men to be saved, no man is "born" his elect, but "all men" can choose to be his "elect", and "any man" that "feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." says how we become his elect...

quite simple, if a man were born elect, and another must "feareth him, and worketh righteousness" to be elect would in fact violate the statement Peter made in verse 34. God would be a respecter of persons....
 
I had to cut much out of the post you made because it blurred the scope of the question, and the answer...

The part you said "this is the way many people read it" is correct, that is because that is what it says...

Acts 10:34-35 (KJV) 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Peter makes a statement "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"

This is qualifying the fact that he wishes all men to be saved, no man is "born" his elect, but "all men" can choose to be his "elect", and "any man" that "feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." says how we become his elect...

quite simple, if a man were born elect, and another must "feareth him, and worketh righteousness" to be elect would in fact violate the statement Peter made in verse 34. God would be a respecter of persons....

Then stick with that. If you fear God, and you work righteousness. Then you are good enough to be saved right? Just make sure you keep that good work up, that righteousness and don't mess up....or you will not be saved. keep in mind that you will need to be perfect 100% to get into heaven, be accepted in God's presents and have eternal life. Note: I'm only encouraging you in your view. God says you will fail, but I see you are determined and I don't want to mess that up for you. good Luck, or good effort, which ever you prefer, :thumbsup
 
Then stick with that. If you fear God, and you work righteousness. Then you are good enough to be saved right? Just make sure you keep that good work up, that righteousness and don't mess up....or you will not be saved. keep in mind that you will need to be perfect 100% to get into heaven, be accepted in God's presents and have eternal life. Note: I'm only encouraging you in your view. God says you will fail, but I see you are determined and I don't want to mess that up for you. good Luck, or good effort, which ever you prefer, :thumbsup

I could say to you, stick with what you say, but that would be wrong of me as I want you to stay in a saved relationship with God...

Here is an example of a Christian, one who was once in a saved condition and sinned:


Acts 8:18-19 (KJV)
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Simon a Christian man tried to buy the power of the Holy Ghost, clearly an example that a Christian can come unto a unsaved condition... see the very next two verses:

Acts 8:20-21 (KJV)
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

and What does Peter tell Simon? :

Acts 8:22-23 (KJV)
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

And what does Simon do when he realized he sinned? He confessed his sin before men asking for forgiveness:

Acts 8:24 (KJV)
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Are you better than Simon? as you said, we are not perfect and will sin after we become Christians and because of Jesus the perfect sacrifice we have forever on earth forgiveness as long as we have forever doing repentance...

If a once saved always saved says they cannot sin then the truth is not in them:


1 John 1:8 (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If a once saved always saved maintains they are in a saved condition without repentance the truth is not in them:

1 John 2:4 (KJV)
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 
I could say to you, stick with what you say, but that would be wrong of me as I want you to stay in a saved relationship with God...

Here is an example of a Christian, one who was once in a saved condition and sinned:


Acts 8:18-19 (KJV)
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Simon a Christian man tried to buy the power of the Holy Ghost, clearly an example that a Christian can come unto a unsaved condition... see the very next two verses:

Acts 8:20-21 (KJV)
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

and What does Peter tell Simon? :

Acts 8:22-23 (KJV)
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

And what does Simon do when he realized he sinned? He confessed his sin before men asking for forgiveness:

Acts 8:24 (KJV)
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Are you better than Simon? as you said, we are not perfect and will sin after we become Christians and because of Jesus the perfect sacrifice we have forever on earth forgiveness as long as we have forever doing repentance...

If a once saved always saved says they cannot sin then the truth is not in them:


1 John 1:8 (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If a once saved always saved maintains they are in a saved condition without repentance the truth is not in them:

1 John 2:4 (KJV)
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Oh Ok, well here you go,


  • John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."
  • Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
  • Romans 9:15-16: "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
  • Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessles of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make the riches of his glory for vessles of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"
  • Ephesians 1:4-5: "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"
  • Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"
  • Philippians 1:29: "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake"
  • 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake."
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification [by the Spirit] and belief in the truth."
  • 2 Timothy 1:9: "who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,"
 
I've posted this in another thread but it fits here also.

[video=google;1250644045603469422]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1250644045603469422[/video]
 
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Oh Ok, well here you go,


  • John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."
Okay for the sake of not making this thread to long... I will choose the first one to address as this one applies contextually to all.

Jesus here is addressing the Apostles and not everyone as everyone else is called by the Gospel and those that respond are chosen and those that don't are lost :

Mark 16:15-16 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But in John 15:16 those that he had "Chosen" were the Apostles, he chose them because they were his friends and obeyed his commands:


John 15:14 (KJV)
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


But you cannot forget that Judas was chosen by the same election as the others and was unfaithful and rejected.


Therefore there perpetuation of the election was by there obedience, not predestination.
 
Okay for the sake of not making this thread to long... I will choose the first one to address as this one applies contextually to all.

Jesus here is addressing the Apostles and not everyone as everyone else is called by the Gospel and those that respond are chosen and those that don't are lost :

Mark 16:15-16 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But in John 15:16 those that he had "Chosen" were the Apostles, he chose them because they were his friends and obeyed his commands:


John 15:14 (KJV)
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


But you cannot forget that Judas was chosen by the same election as the others and was unfaithful and rejected.


Therefore there perpetuation of the election was by there obedience, not predestination.

I used John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you." in the quote. You are addressing other verses to address this verse, without addressing the verse I gave, which you quoted.

Would you like to address this verse? or the other verses you used? Your pick. You can make it as long as you want. And address the lecture video if you like. No one ever does. Maybe you'll be the first.
 
I've posted this in another thread but it fits here also.

[video=google;1250644045603469422]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1250644045603469422[/video]


In Romans 9, Paul knows that God has cut off the Jews from being His chosen people and God has also graffed in the Gentiles, Rom 11. So in Romans 9 Paul is raising the objections the Jews would have to this and Paul answers those objections. Paul knew the Jews would argue that they must be of God's elect for they were direct descendants of Abraham. Paul uses Jacob and Esau to demonstrate that God's election is not based solely on one's physical descent. Esau was as these Jews Paul was addressing in Rom 9 a direct descendant of Abraham, the first born therefore the most obvious choice. But Esau was not chosen therefore God does not have to choose those Jews, He can choose the Gentiles if He so desires because His choices are not based only ony physical descent.

So Paul's discourse has nothing to do with Calvinistc predestination. The choice between Jacob and Esau had nothing to do with their eternal destinies but was God actually choosing a nation (Israel) through which the Messiah would enter the world. Of course this choice of the nation of Israel had to begin with individuals Abraham, Isaac, Jacob but the choices of these individuals was always looking toward that nation of Israel.

In looking towards the nation of Israel, God chose the individual Abraham. Was this choice of Abraham about his eternal destiny? No, for if it was, that means all else not chosen as King Melchizedek was lost and king Melchizedek was NOT a lost individual. So the individual choice of Abraham or Isaac or Jacob was not about salvation but the choice of a nation. Even though the individuals Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were chosen for that purpose, they still had to obey God to be saved for disobeying God and they would have been lost.
 
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In Romans 9, Paul knows that God has cut off the Jews from being His chosen people and God has also graffed in the Gentiles, Rom 11. So in Romans 9 Paul is raising the objections the Jews would have to this and Paul answers those objections. Paul knew the Jews would argue that they must be of God's elect for they were direct descendants of Abraham. Paul uses Jacob and Esau to demonstrate that God's election is not based solely on one's physical descent. Esau was as these Jews Paul was addressing in Rom 9 a direct descendant of Abraham, the first born therefore the most obvious choice. But Esau was not chosen therefore God does not have to choose those Jews, He can choose the Gentiles if He so desires because His choices are not based only ony physical descent.

So Paul's discourse has nothing to do with Calvinistc predestination. The choice between Jacob and Esau had nothing to do with their eternal destinies but was God actually choosing a nation (Israel) through which the Messiah would enter the world. Of course this choice of the nation of Israel had to begin with individuals Abraham, Isaac, Jacob but the choices of these individuals was always looking toward that nation of Israel.

In looking towards the nation of Israel, God chose the individual Abraham. Was this choice of Abraham about his eternal destiny? No, for if it was, that means all else not chosen as King Melchizedek was lost and king Melchizedek was NOT a lost individual. So the individual choice of Abraham or Isaac or Jacob was not about salvation but the choice of a nation. Even though the individuals Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were chosen for that purpose, they still had to obey God to be saved for disobeying God and they would have been lost.

So this is your answer to Dr RC Spoul's lecture using Romans 9 to illustrate God's sovereign choice in whom he will chose?

Your saying Romans 9 is not about God choosing? You've lost me. What are you saying about Romans 9?
 
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