The Omnipresence of the Devil

[smaller]

Wow, full of religion and no help. A love for the Roman Catholic doctrines also. If one had ears to hear, I would help, but this is to far gone.
I can see why some Holy Spirit filled people have issues with some of your ideas, makes sense now. If you want to turn around and see things in many scriptures, let me know.

Mike.

Early church fathers rightly determined on the matters. People with other ideas almost always have other heresies attached to their alternative notions, which is "why" that particular matter was one of the first to be looked at in the early churches.

 

[Brother Mike]

I do, in Psalm 33:13, and Psalm 139:7-10 also, Some religious systems teach that God is everywhere because He is everything. This belief, called pantheism, says God is diffused throughout the entire universe, making trees, rocks, animals, stars, and people all part of God. This is not the biblical view of omnipresence. God can reveal Himself in one location, yet His presence is simultaneously everywhere else in the universe. This is why it is important to say He is present everywhere with His whole Being at all times. God is present everywhere, but that does not mean we are each part of God.

The thing that people miss in pondering this is that Satan is not omnipresent, and that our own hearts are deceitfully wicked. Consequently, many seem to hold themselves in some sort of abject innocence, while they blame their sins on the devil. Big mistake.

It's His spoken Word Edward that is everywhere, and upholds all things and all things consist in the Lord Jesus, all in him and for him.
God is all things in us, through us and with us as His children.
God is not with folks who give him no reverence though, he is not there, not with them. It's the Body of Christ's job to be there, and obey.

blessings.

 

[Brother Mike]

You didn't answer my question: Do you believe the Scriptures teach God's omnipresence?

I showed you scriptures where He is not, and we see scriptures where God is. God is with his People, is not with or around those not his.

Scriptures teach God can find something out real quick, but they don't teach He is there paying attention to what is going on in everyone's lives. There some He does not even know, some Jesus said he did not know.

So unless someone wants to follow the plan of God and do the will of God, then no, God is not there unless one of us are praying for them.

Mike.

 

[jasonc]

hehehe, that is what I was going to ask.

Introduction of something that has nothing to do with the topic,an appeal to emotion,or a statement of if you believe that you must believe this when there is no logical connection.

 

[electricaluser]

Introduction of something that has nothing to do with the topic,an appeal to emotion,or a statement of if you believe that you must believe this when there is no logical connection.

I don't believe in anything as it causes me distress.

 

[Brother Mike]

Early church fathers rightly determined on the matters. People with other ideas almost always have other heresies attached to their alternative notions, which is "why" that particular matter was one of the first to be looked at in the early churches.

What do you consider Early church? I post a whole lot of scriptures from the early church, and back everything with scriptures.
When you sound off about the trinity, and God is Omnipresent, Omniscient, that is doctrines of man. Even this forum does not post a Trinity Doctrine, but a Oneness doctrine. Yet, that don't seem to bother you.

We are not even suppose to discuss the "Trinity" doctrine, or praying to Mary but in the One on One debate and end time forums.
10) Discussion of Catholic doctrine is allowed only in the One on One Debate and End Times forums. (ToS 2.2)
RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature.

Forums Statement of Faith:
We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

One that manifest as three is Apostolic Oneness, not Trinity. Trinity is 3 that are 1.



Mike.

 

[Edward]

We would probably see quite differently in this regards. Adam for example was Gods son. Luke 3:38.

Are you going to blame and accuse Gods son? Or will you look to the reality of the constructs that GOD Himself placed Adam UNDER?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Paul discloses exactly "what" or more precisely "WHOM" all unbelievers are placed UNDER, no differently than Adam was, here for example, applied to "all of us" prior to belief:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

It is this same spirit, the "god of this world," the "prince of the power of the air," SATAN, who blinds the minds of the unbelievers, as Paul shows here for example:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It is this same spirit, of disobedience, that BLINDED the minds of the Jews, as Paul shows here:

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

and here:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

Now, we can look at this, the reality of this present construct, that God Himself has placed us ALL under, and realize what is going on, OR we can be blinded to it BY THE FACT, and blindly accuse Adam, Gods son, or even ourselves or others.

I submit to the reality of Gods Construct. This present wicked/evil age has been given into the hands of SATAN, and has been so by Gods Own Decrees.

No one can make the spirit of disobedience anything but what it is. A resisting evil sinner. And we should all know well enough by now, that every sin is directly connected to THE DEVIL:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So, NO blame for the DEVIL? Or ALL BLAME?

Count me in the ALL BLAME to SATAN camp. I have zero reasons to slur Adam, Gods son, or any other believer, for sins. That is what the "accuser of the brethren" does in believers. Satan prompts believers to blame and accuse the brethren or even themselves, and also BLINDS them to his presence in them, as the tempter. The instant any believer concedes that the tempter does tempt them internally, they should recognize that there is them, and there is another, within. And they'll see much better.

It only takes a teeny tiny bit of honesty to step into this fact, personally. But the BLINDER is in fact MORE powerful as an entity of darkness, than the children of LIGHT are able to see:

Luke 16:8
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Kind of a sad statement, but that's just the way it is, made so, by God.

NO ONE is going to make the tempter NOT be a sinner.

Anything that God does may be a fact, but that's His business and in no way absolves us from our own heart and lustful desires. Jeremiah 17:9

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

God may attribute all sin to Satan at some point, but to think that we have no accountability in it is a fallacy. We have many choices to make and this is us and not Satans fault.

God may have reduced everyone to being on the same level playing field but it doesn't mean that we can sin without risk. It's certainly not the Son of God's fault! I'm not saying that it is Adams fault either but it does remain that by one man sin came into the world. That's talking about Adam brother.

We have accountability, grace notwithstanding. I don't see what's hard to understand about that?

 

[Sparkey]

There is a warning in Scripture. There are several but this one, "let there be teachers few," comes with a promise of consequence. You've read the book of James so you don't need me to teach this. This is not to say that we can not exchange opinion and test our understanding and allow it to be examined but the Bible does draw a line. One that should not be crossed less one become known as false teacher. James warns about how our tongue and words can start fires.

This thread asks if the devil is omnipresent.
THREAD TITLE:
The Omnipresence of the Devil
There is nothing in Scripture that I know of that could be used to convince me that the devil is everywhere at the same time. And we know that he will be imprisoned for eternity. How can one who is omnipresent be imprisoned? It is not possible.

 

[Blake]

He isn't omnipresent. Being a fallen angel, he can roam to and fro just as angels do -- pretty darn fast, but he can't be everywhere at once.

 

[OzSpen]

In your own words, could you explain what a red herring logical fallacy is?

Maybe give an example.

Thanks JLB

Didn't you read the link I gave? That explains a red herring fallacy very efficiently. A red herring is when I'm discussing a point and giving, say, a Scripture in support. Then what does a poster or person in conversation do? Her or she does not address the point or the Scripture, but is off and running with his/her own topic in another direction. It's called avoidance of the topic being discussed and going in a direction that has to do with another topic.

I'll invent an example relating to the topic of this thread, 'The omnipresence of the devil'.

Oz: These are the Scriptures that demonstrate that God is the only omnipresent person and the devil is not omnipresent.

That is not my understanding of the omnipresence of God. As I've indicated above, J I Packer has provided an excellent explanation of omnipresence:

'The word means that God knows exhaustively, and upholds and touches continually, every single item in the universe he has made, from the tiniest genes and electrons to the most massive stars in the expanding universe to the most complex mind-body interactions in the psyche of over 6 billion people. God is here, there, and everywhere, and his mind and hand are on everything. We are never out of his sight (Psalm 139), and we cannot get away from him (John 1). Wherever we are, he is there too. This is not simply a matter of transcending spatial confines. Strictly speaking, God has no spatial location at all, for space belongs to the created order and exists in him rather than he in it. Such is the omnipresence of God' (Packer 2000).

Or, we could define God's omnipresence as God not having 'size or spatial dimensions, and is present at every point of space with his whole being, yet God acts differently in different places' (Grudem 1999:78).

We know that God is present everywhere because of teachings such as Jeremiah 23:23-24 (ESV), 'Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God far away? 24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord'.

As for Eph 2:12 (ESV), 'remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world', it is not teaching about God's omnipresence but about a people's relationship with God. Paul is telling Gentile believers in Ephesus that formerly they were 'alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise' and in such a situation they were without hope (Eph 2:12 ESV), but what are they now? Eph 2:13 (ESV) provides the answer: 'But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ'. Paul is teaching about the condition of people BEFORE they came to Christ and then providing the answer of redemption in Christ NOW that they are Christians.

Ephesians 2:12-13 (ESV) is not teaching about God's omnipresence but redemption in Christ.​

Works consulted
Grudem W 1999. Bible doctrine. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press.
Packer, J I 2000. Is Satan omnipresent? Christianity Today (online), 19 September. Available at: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/september4/36.115.html (Accessed 28 July 2015).

JLB: I've been wondering what the world would be like if Jesus really meant what he said when he stated: 'So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed' (John 8:36 NIV). I used to work with drug addicts at the Teen Challenge drug rehabilitation centre and I've seen Jesus really set people free from sinful addictions. He's a mighty God who liberates people if they submit to him.

What JLB said could probably be true in itself, but it has nothing to do with the topic Oz raised. It is avoiding the topic. Politicians are a whiz at using this tactic. A journalist asks her a question about a controversial topic and the journalist answers with an unrelated answer. Many debaters put the opponent off topic by using this approach.

My son did this to me when he visited a few months ago. Since he works in the media, I said that a certain prominent journalist is a whiz at only presenting one side of the story. What was my son's response? 'That's not as bad as the journalists from xyz media outlet'. My immediate response to him was, 'That's a red herring'. Why? because he was not addressing what I said about the journalist I raised.

When we use a logical fallacy, it is fallacious reasoning and thus makes a logical discussion impossible.

Therefore, I urge you to become familiar with the Nizkor Project's list of logical fallacies. Here is what it states about a red herring fallacy:
The link I gave to red herring fallacy from the Nizkor project gave this explanation:

Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.
Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

Examples of Red Herring

• "We admit that this measure is popular. But we also urge you to note that there are so many bond issues on this ballot that the whole thing is getting ridiculous."

• "Argument" for a tax cut:
  "You know, I've begun to think that there is some merit in the Republican's tax cut plan. I suggest that you come up with something like it, because If we Democrats are going to survive as a party, we have got to show that we are as tough-minded as the Republicans, since that is what the public wants."

• "Argument" for making grad school requirements stricter:
  "I think there is great merit in making the requirements stricter for the graduate students. I recommend that you support it, too. After all, we are in a budget crisis and we do not want our salaries affected."

I hope that that helps. However, all you had to do was Google "red herring logical fallacy" and you would have found lots of examples. I did that just a moment ago and found:

http://youthapologeticstraining.com/red-herring/
http://www.howtoresolved.com/public/index.php/tube/Ochl99nWpuI/logical-fallacies-the-red-herring
http://howtoresolved.com/tube/76w6i025VxU/logical-fallacies-1-genetic-fallacy-and-red-herring

Oz

 

[smaller]

We have accountability, grace notwithstanding. I don't see what's hard to understand about that?

It is very unlikely that any of us are going to make the tempter "accountable" "legal" or even less, under Grace.

And equally, yes, we can again become deceived slaves in this present life. Doesn't mean God in Christ will lose any who fall as the tempters victim or pawn. Obviously there is another party involved that is "not us."