The Omnipresence of the Devil

[OzSpen]

Then answer the questions. If God is Omnipresent, then why He have to go DOWN and check Sodom out?
Why God have to go down and Look at Babel?

I have scriptures, and just getting started, you seem to have faltered with nothing. Now we can talk about this and get your doctrine fixed, or drop it. I put the Word first place, and there can be no contradictions. Your standards may not be that High, but mine are, and if your going to speak with me about scriptures, you need to raise the bar, or go quote other people but me. You need to pick who your just go and quote.

I do not appreciate it when you denigrate my very high view of Scripture with these false claims:

• 'Your standards may not be that High, but mine are, and if your going to speak with me about scriptures, you need to raise the bar, or go quote other people but me'.

That is an utterly false statement about my hermeneutics of Scripture. False! So please quit your accusations!

You stated: 'You need to pick who your just go and quote'. What on earth does that mean. I find it to be an incoherent statement.

I have provided biblical evidence for the doctrine of God's omnipresence. I've invented nothing. I've backed up my position with Scripture.

You state:

• 'why He have to go DOWN and check Sodom out?' yet you provide not one example to what you are referring. I will not go to read the Sodom and Gomorrah story to try to find to what you refer. That's your business to show us.
• 'Why God have to go down and Look at Babel?' Again, you did not give your example. I am not going to guess to what you refer.

Please go back to #23 and the definition I provided of omnipresence as God not having 'size or spatial dimensions, and is present at every point of space with his whole being, yet God acts differently in different places' (Grudem 1999:78).

There are many verses that provide the basis for God's being present or to be causally involved in the whole of creation by his omnipresence. These verses include: 1 Kings 8:27 (ESV), Psalm 95:3-5 (ESV), Psalm 139:7-10 (NIV), Jer 23:23-24 (NIV), Matt 6:6 (NLT), Acts 17:27-28 (NLT), Col 1:17 (NASB), Heb 1:3 (NASB), and Rev 4:11 (ESV).

So God is the creator, cause and sustainer of everything that has been made. Nothing can lock him out of any part of creation. If it were not for God's causal and sustaining presence, creation would not exist.

However, God chooses to act differently in different places as he did with Noah and the flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, Babel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David.

Oz

 

[Mike]

OzSpen, at the risk of appearing to be stalking you, I ended up liking most of your posts in this thread, and I'm not even a big fan of the "like" feature. I greatly appreciate your well spoken method of laying out what should be obvious based upon scripture as a whole. It's been my observation that people who deny the omnipresence of God based upon the fact that the word is not mentioned specifically are often the same ones who take issue with the doctrine of the Trinity for the same reason.

All of scripture clearly establishes His intimate knowledge of every goings on at all times in all places, and denial of this aspect of His nature is at the very least, puzzling. Proverbs 15:3 says "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.". Psalm 139 is rich with this text. In Matthew, Jesus said spoke of His awareness of every sparrow that falls. Job 34:21 says He sees every step of man.

Satan, once an angel, now a fallen angel is NOT omnipresent. His evil spreads the world by his army of demons. It is putting him on the level of God, where he desires to be, to place upon him a characteristic reserved for the Lord alone.

 

[OzSpen]

OzSpen, at the risk of appearing to be stalking you, I ended up liking most of your posts in this thread, and I'm not even a big fan of the "like" feature. I greatly appreciate your well spoken method of laying out what should be obvious based upon scripture as a whole. It's been my observation that people who deny the omnipresence of God based upon the fact that the word is not mentioned specifically are often the same ones who take issue with the doctrine of the Trinity for the same reason.

All of scripture clearly establishes His intimate knowledge of every goings on at all times in all places, and denial of this aspect of His nature is at the very least, puzzling. Proverbs 15:3 says "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.". Psalm 139 is rich with this text. In Matthew, Jesus said spoke of His awareness of every sparrow that falls. Job 34:21 says He sees every step of man.

Satan, once an angel, now a fallen angel is NOT omnipresent. His evil spreads the world by his army of demons. It is putting him on the level of God, where he desires to be, to place upon him a characteristic reserved for the Lord alone.

Mike,

Thank you so much for your kind words and affirmation of the omnipresence of the Lord God and not of Satan.

May the Lord bless and encourage you for your initiative in showing kindness to me and the posts I've made on God's omnipresence.

In Christ,
Oz

 

[Free]

I greatly appreciate your well spoken method of laying out what should be obvious based upon scripture as a whole. It's been my observation that people who deny the omnipresence of God based upon the fact that the word is not mentioned specifically are often the same ones who take issue with the doctrine of the Trinity for the same reason.

Funny that you mention this, and not only because it is true in this case. As I was reading through the thread, I noticed that this is going very much like the many debates I've had regarding the Trinity. It doesn't matter how many clear passages of Scripture one gives that show the deity of Jesus, the anti-trinitarians not only do not address those passages, they post verses showing the humanity of Jesus and somehow those trump all else, as if the Bible says nothing else on the matter. To them it's always an either/or case instead of attempting to bring a reconciliation and understanding of all that is revealed in Scripture.

 

[Brother Mike]

I do not appreciate it when you denigrate my very high view of Scripture with these false claims:

• 'Your standards may not be that High, but mine are, and if your going to speak with me about scriptures, you need to raise the bar, or go quote other people but me'.

That is an utterly false statement about my hermeneutics of Scripture. False! So please quit your accusations!

You stated: 'You need to pick who your just go and quote'. What on earth does that mean. I find it to be an incoherent statement.

I have provided biblical evidence for the doctrine of God's omnipresence. I've invented nothing. I've backed up my position with Scripture.

You state:

• 'why He have to go DOWN and check Sodom out?' yet you provide not one example to what you are referring. I will not go to read the Sodom and Gomorrah story to try to find to what you refer. That's your business to show us.
• 'Why God have to go down and Look at Babel?' Again, you did not give your example. I am not going to guess to what you refer.

Please go back to #23 and the definition I provided of omnipresence as God not having 'size or spatial dimensions, and is present at every point of space with his whole being, yet God acts differently in different places' (Grudem 1999:78).

There are many verses that provide the basis for God's being present or to be causally involved in the whole of creation by his omnipresence. These verses include: 1 Kings 8:27 (ESV), Psalm 95:3-5 (ESV), Psalm 139:7-10 (NIV), Jer 23:23-24 (NIV), Matt 6:6 (NLT), Acts 17:27-28 (NLT), Col 1:17 (NASB), Heb 1:3 (NASB), and Rev 4:11 (ESV).

So God is the creator, cause and sustainer of everything that has been made. Nothing can lock him out of any part of creation. If it were not for God's causal and sustaining presence, creation would not exist.

However, God chooses to act differently in different places as he did with Noah and the flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, Babel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David.

Oz

I thought I was wasting my time here. Good, you came with scriptures, and not some Red Herring nonsense. So, since you say your a serious "WORD" person, I'll act as if you actually are. That means all past doctrines of man get set aside in order to study scriptures. This puts us in the position to learn and get revelation.

Now some of your scripture has nothing to do with omnipresence. Like before him all things consist, and nothing was made that was not made through and because of Jesus. Everything was made for and because of Jesus, all things are under him. When going head to head with someone or trying to get their attention we just need to stick to a few scriptures that pertain to the subject. We also need to expect what the other might have to counter, and be prepared.

Your statement:

So God is the creator, cause and sustainer of everything that has been made. Nothing can lock him out of any part of creation. If it were not for God's causal and sustaining presence, creation would not exist.

However, God chooses to act differently in different places as he did with Noah and the flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, Babel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David.

So, God is ether omnipresent everywhere, or God is not. It can't be God choose to act different, because that is not omnipresent, that is choosing to pay attention to some things and other things He chooses not to pay attention to.

Is God locked out of parts of His creation?
Psa_78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

There are several places God is stopped from Helping man. Man's choice, not God's. So in certain men's life, God is not there, or with them. That is not omnipresent, that is God not helping those that shut him out.

Does God sustain his creation?
He upholds all things by his spoken Word. The word with God, was God the same both God and the Word. So what God said, and spoke, keeps the planets in alignment, keeps the oxygen on the planet, and the Word is alive and powerful. So, just by the spoken Word, all things are kept in place. There is no place on earth the Word is not sustaining, but we see places in Scripture God is not there. We have a difference.


Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
(Jer 23:23-24)

2Ch_16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Zec_4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
Rev_5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Seven which are the eyes of the Lord that look through the whole earth, the eyes of the Lord have to search the earth. Seven spirits sent to the earth, the seven eyes, the Angels also all over the earth.

God has to go down and look at Sodom to see what is going on?

This is not omnipresent OzSpen,this is something else. This is why we don't just throw things out according to someone elses doctrine. I don't even quote other people and their teaching, because a whole lot of it is wrong.

If you care about the Word, then you ask questions.

Why is the Lord going down to check out Sodom?
How does the Lord fill the earth, but has to look?
What are these seven spirits, that look for God sent to the earth?
What Role does the Holy Spirit play in a believer? Scripture says that the Holy Spirit constantly connects us to God.
Why do so many scriptures talk about God hearing the cry of something?

We just don't say God is omnipresent. That is being all places at once, and that is not the case. His spoken Word upholds all things, so we know the Word is running through the whole universe, otherwise things would fall apart as you mentioned.

Mike

 

[Brother Mike]

Funny that you mention this, and not only because it is true in this case. As I was reading through the thread, I noticed that this is going very much like the many debates I've had regarding the Trinity. It doesn't matter how many clear passages of Scripture one gives that show the deity of Jesus, the anti-trinitarians not only do not address those passages, they post verses showing the humanity of Jesus and somehow those trump all else, as if the Bible says nothing else on the matter. To them it's always an either/or case instead of attempting to bring a reconciliation and understanding of all that is revealed in Scripture.

How in the heck do you see trinity in this thread? It's not Anti-Trinitarians, it's Anti-Roman Catholic Doctrine, because that is where the Trinity came from, and before the first 325ad doctrine that was later changed, it was oneness belief which our apostolic friends will point at.

Now if you think everything coming out of Rome does not need scrutiny, then you need help.

 

[Free]

How in the heck do you see trinity in this thread?

I don't and never said I did.

Do not discuss the Trinity as it is off topic.

 

[Brother Mike]

I don't and never said I did.

Do not discuss the Trinity as it is off topic.

Funny that you mention this, and not only because it is true in this case. As I was reading through the thread, I noticed that this is going very much like the many debates I've had regarding the Trinity.

the anti-trinitarians not only do not address those passages, they post verses showing the humanity of Jesus and somehow those trump all else, as if the Bible says nothing else on the matter. To them it's always an either/or case instead of attempting to bring a reconciliation and understanding of all that is revealed in Scripture.

OK Free, you did not mention anti-trinitarians in this thread, and you did not mention trinity in this thread, you made no connection to this discussion and the trinity. I must be seeing things then, my fault.

One thing though, there is no passage I won't address with you concerning this Catholic doctrine you hold so dear. Let's get that straight.

Mike

 

[OzSpen]

I thought I was wasting my time here. Good, you came with scriptures, and not some Red Herring nonsense. So, since you say your a serious "WORD" person, I'll act as if you actually are. That means all past doctrines of man get set aside in order to study scriptures. This puts us in the position to learn and get revelation.

Now some of your scripture has nothing to do with omnipresence. Like before him all things consist, and nothing was made that was not made through and because of Jesus. Everything was made for and because of Jesus, all things are under him. When going head to head with someone or trying to get their attention we just need to stick to a few scriptures that pertain to the subject. We also need to expect what the other might have to counter, and be prepared.

Your statement:

So God is the creator, cause and sustainer of everything that has been made. Nothing can lock him out of any part of creation. If it were not for God's causal and sustaining presence, creation would not exist.

However, God chooses to act differently in different places as he did with Noah and the flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, Babel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David.

So, God is ether omnipresent everywhere, or God is not. It can't be God choose to act different, because that is not omnipresent, that is choosing to pay attention to some things and other things He chooses not to pay attention to.

Is God locked out of parts of His creation?
Psa_78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

There are several places God is stopped from Helping man. Man's choice, not God's. So in certain men's life, God is not there, or with them. That is not omnipresent, that is God not helping those that shut him out.

Does God sustain his creation?
He upholds all things by his spoken Word. The word with God, was God the same both God and the Word. So what God said, and spoke, keeps the planets in alignment, keeps the oxygen on the planet, and the Word is alive and powerful. So, just by the spoken Word, all things are kept in place. There is no place on earth the Word is not sustaining, but we see places in Scripture God is not there. We have a difference.


Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
(Jer 23:23-24)

2Ch_16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Zec_4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
Rev_5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Seven which are the eyes of the Lord that look through the whole earth, the eyes of the Lord have to search the earth. Seven spirits sent to the earth, the seven eyes, the Angels also all over the earth.

God has to go down and look at Sodom to see what is going on?

This is not omnipresent OzSpen,this is something else. This is why we don't just throw things out according to someone elses doctrine. I don't even quote other people and their teaching, because a whole lot of it is wrong.

If you care about the Word, then you ask questions.

Why is the Lord going down to check out Sodom?
How does the Lord fill the earth, but has to look?
What are these seven spirits, that look for God sent to the earth?
What Role does the Holy Spirit play in a believer? Scripture says that the Holy Spirit constantly connects us to God.
Why do so many scriptures talk about God hearing the cry of something?

We just don't say God is omnipresent. That is being all places at once, and that is not the case. His spoken Word upholds all things, so we know the Word is running through the whole universe, otherwise things would fall apart as you mentioned.

Mike

Brother Mike,

You wrote:

That means all past doctrines of man get set aside in order to study scriptures. This puts us in the position to learn and get revelation.

Then you give me you own doctrines of 'man' and talk about learning and getting 'revelation'. I do not have the time or interest in wading through and exposing each one of the doctrines you have espoused in this post.

I read through your rather lengthy post and found you were pushing your agenda of not wanting to espouse the omnipresence of God. In this thread, I have provided abundant evidence for God's omnipresence. I'm able to refute or explain each one of the Scriptures to gave to try to refute God's omnipresence, but I sense I'd be wasting my time. I'm not sure you want to see the evidence of the teaching on God's omnipresence.

Let me ask you: Do you believe the Scriptures teach God's omnipresence?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Funny that you mention this, and not only because it is true in this case. As I was reading through the thread, I noticed that this is going very much like the many debates I've had regarding the Trinity. It doesn't matter how many clear passages of Scripture one gives that show the deity of Jesus, the anti-trinitarians not only do not address those passages, they post verses showing the humanity of Jesus and somehow those trump all else, as if the Bible says nothing else on the matter. To them it's always an either/or case instead of attempting to bring a reconciliation and understanding of all that is revealed in Scripture.

Exactly, Free. And when people do not address the Scriptures raised in support of a doctrine, I'm of the view that we need to call them on what they do in promoting their own agendas. When they do this, they commit a red herring logical fallacy.

Over the years when I've interacted on Christian forums, I've found that many Christians are not familiar with the nature of logical fallacies, how they commit them, and how logical discussion is halted when they engage in the use of such fallacies.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

Exactly, Free. And when people do not address the Scriptures raised in support of a doctrine, I'm of the view that we need to call them on what they do in promoting their own agendas. When they do this, they commit a red herring logical fallacy.

Over the years when I've interacted on Christian forums, I've found that many Christians are not familiar with the nature of logical fallacies, how they commit them, and how logical discussion is halted when they engage in the use of such fallacies.

Oz

I have found that I have done that.

 

[Brother Mike]

Brother Mike,

You wrote:


Then you give me you own doctrines of 'man' and talk about learning and getting 'revelation'. I do not have the time or interest in wading through and exposing each one of the doctrines you have espoused in this post.

I read through your rather lengthy post and found you were pushing your agenda of not wanting to espouse the omnipresence of God. In this thread, I have provided abundant evidence for God's omnipresence. I'm able to refute or explain each one of the Scriptures to gave to try to refute God's omnipresence, but I sense I'd be wasting my time. I'm not sure you want to see the evidence of the teaching on God's omnipresence.

Let me ask you: Do you believe the Scriptures teach God's omnipresence?

Oz

Omnipresent means everywhere at one time. YOUR the one not looking at the many scriptures God simply is not there, or even had to travel there to look.

No, and you just can't explain scriptures away either and say what they don't say. like a certain moderator around here.

What you have shown me is God being places, filling the earth.

I showed you also places God has to look, go down and check things out. Often an angel came down on behalf of the Lord.

So, we just don't say God is omnipresent. We also can't say God is checking everyone out at all times. We can say God can find something out real quick, and we can say that through the Holy Spirit we always are with the Father.

Now we have show each other scriptures for both.

We also have not explained the 7 spirits with the eyes of God, which I have to admit, I don't know, but there is more to how God operates than just saying God is everywhere.

Mike.

 

[OzSpen]

Omnipresent means everywhere at one time. YOUR the one not looking at the many scriptures God simply is not there, or even had to travel there to look.

No, and you just can't explain scriptures away either and say what they don't say. like a certain moderator around here.

What you have shown me is God being places, filling the earth.

I showed you also places God has to look, go down and check things out. Often an angel came down on behalf of the Lord.

So, we just don't say God is omnipresent. We also can't say God is checking everyone out at all times. We can say God can find something out real quick, and we can say that through the Holy Spirit we always are with the Father.

Now we have show each other scriptures for both.

We also have not explained the 7 spirits with the eyes of God, which I have to admit, I don't know, but there is more to how God operates than just saying God is everywhere.

Mike.

You didn't answer my question: Do you believe the Scriptures teach God's omnipresence?

 

[Edward]

You didn't answer my question: Do you believe the Scriptures teach God's omnipresence?

I do, in Psalm 33:13, and Psalm 139:7-10 also, Some religious systems teach that God is everywhere because He is everything. This belief, called pantheism, says God is diffused throughout the entire universe, making trees, rocks, animals, stars, and people all part of God. This is not the biblical view of omnipresence. God can reveal Himself in one location, yet His presence is simultaneously everywhere else in the universe. This is why it is important to say He is present everywhere with His whole Being at all times. God is present everywhere, but that does not mean we are each part of God.

The thing that people miss in pondering this is that Satan is not omnipresent, and that our own hearts are deceitfully wicked. Consequently, many seem to hold themselves in some sort of abject innocence, while they blame their sins on the devil. Big mistake.

 

[OzSpen]

I do, in Psalm 33:13, and Psalm 139:7-10 also, Some religious systems teach that God is everywhere because He is everything. This belief, called pantheism, says God is diffused throughout the entire universe, making trees, rocks, animals, stars, and people all part of God. This is not the biblical view of omnipresence. God can reveal Himself in one location, yet His presence is simultaneously everywhere else in the universe. This is why it is important to say He is present everywhere with His whole Being at all times. God is present everywhere, but that does not mean we are each part of God.

The thing that people miss in pondering this is that Satan is not omnipresent, and that our own hearts are deceitfully wicked. Consequently, many seem to hold themselves in some sort of abject innocence, while they blame their sins on the devil. Big mistake.

 

[smaller]

Omnipresent means everywhere at one time. YOUR the one not looking at the many scriptures God simply is not there, or even had to travel there to look.

Let's get something straight on the above. There is God, The Father, Omnipotent, Invisible, Omnipresent, Omniscient.

God has "expressed" His Own Self, in His Image, His Son, His Word, and also by His Spirit, given to into us.

Where we see matters of "christophanies" or "going down" as you note, it is NOT because God is NOT the matters above, but because of the WAYS in which He Works, through His Image, His Son, His Spirit.

To use a matter, such as God going down, to deny the Trinity, it is only bad eyesight on the part of the readers.

 

[smaller]

The thing that people miss in pondering this is that Satan is not omnipresent, and that our own hearts are deceitfully wicked. Consequently, many seem to hold themselves in some sort of abject innocence, while they blame their sins on the devil. Big mistake.

We would probably see quite differently in this regards. Adam for example was Gods son. Luke 3:38.

Are you going to blame and accuse Gods son? Or will you look to the reality of the constructs that GOD Himself placed Adam UNDER?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Paul discloses exactly "what" or more precisely "WHOM" all unbelievers are placed UNDER, no differently than Adam was, here for example, applied to "all of us" prior to belief:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

It is this same spirit, the "god of this world," the "prince of the power of the air," SATAN, who blinds the minds of the unbelievers, as Paul shows here for example:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It is this same spirit, of disobedience, that BLINDED the minds of the Jews, as Paul shows here:

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

and here:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

Now, we can look at this, the reality of this present construct, that God Himself has placed us ALL under, and realize what is going on, OR we can be blinded to it BY THE FACT, and blindly accuse Adam, Gods son, or even ourselves or others.

I submit to the reality of Gods Construct. This present wicked/evil age has been given into the hands of SATAN, and has been so by Gods Own Decrees.

No one can make the spirit of disobedience anything but what it is. A resisting evil sinner. And we should all know well enough by now, that every sin is directly connected to THE DEVIL:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So, NO blame for the DEVIL? Or ALL BLAME?

Count me in the ALL BLAME to SATAN camp. I have zero reasons to slur Adam, Gods son, or any other believer, for sins. That is what the "accuser of the brethren" does in believers. Satan prompts believers to blame and accuse the brethren or even themselves, and also BLINDS them to his presence in them, as the tempter. The instant any believer concedes that the tempter does tempt them internally, they should recognize that there is them, and there is another, within. And they'll see much better.

It only takes a teeny tiny bit of honesty to step into this fact, personally. But the BLINDER is in fact MORE powerful as an entity of darkness, than the children of LIGHT are able to see:

Luke 16:8
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Kind of a sad statement, but that's just the way it is, made so, by God.

NO ONE is going to make the tempter NOT be a sinner.

 

[JLB]

When they do this, they commit a red herring logical fallacy.

In your own words, could you explain what a red herring logical fallacy is?

Maybe give an example.


Thanks JLB

 

[electricaluser]

In your own words, could you explain what a red herring logical fallacy is?

Maybe give an example.


Thanks JLB

hehehe, that is what I was going to ask.

 

[Brother Mike]

Let's get something straight on the above. There is God, The Father, Omnipotent, Invisible, Omnipresent, Omniscient.

God has "expressed" His Own Self, in His Image, His Son, His Word, and also by His Spirit, given to into us.

Where we see matters of "christophanies" or "going down" as you note, it is NOT because God is NOT the matters above, but because of the WAYS in which He Works, through His Image, His Son, His Spirit.

To use a matter, such as God going down, to deny the Trinity, it is only bad eyesight on the part of the readers.

Wow, full of religion and no help. A love for the Roman Catholic doctrines also. If one had ears to hear, I would help, but this is to far gone.
I can see why some Holy Spirit filled people have issues with some of your ideas, makes sense now. If you want to turn around and see things in many scriptures, let me know.

Mike.