- Apr 2, 2003
- 22,670
- 6,022
I did. And my point still stands. The Scriptures I gave prove you wrong and you don't even want to engage them.
-
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
-
-
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
The only begotten Son
- Thread starter Tri Unity
- Start date
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
free
No they don't !
No they don't !
- Apr 2, 2003
- 22,670
- 6,022
"The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" means he took on human nature in it's entirety. There is nothing else it can mean.
Why do you choose to not do proper study? You end up doing eisegesis on the text as a result, ignoring the very plain and obvious meaning of the text.
You are in serious error here.
No, I don't. A plain reading of Scripture shows this to be the case.savedbygrace57 said:
This is supposed to show what? That a man doesn't need a body to be called a man? Notice that this verse begins with "I knew a man," and then clearly goes on to say "whether in the body." So clearly this verse is talking about a human male who has a body of flesh and blood. To say anything else is to completely misunderstand the text and what it means by "out of the body." If you think this somehow supports the idea that a man can be a man without a physical body, you are greatly mistaken.savedbygrace57 said:
Yes, I most certainly have. And you didn't deal with the second text I gave.savedbygrace57 said:
Last edited by a moderator:
The fullness that was pleased to dwell in Him (Jesus) is the One true God. The firstborn of all creation has a beginning not the fullness. However a Jesus apart from that fullness has never existed. It was the Jesus who was (the Son) who occupied the fully human body born from the virgin Mary. The Father was in Him as Jesus taught and they are one in that context.
This is heresy.
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone
If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Jesus has a God because He has always been the Son.
Randy
Tri Unity
Member
- Jul 24, 2012
- 891
- 0
- Thread starter
- #26
There are scriptures that are difficult regardless what method of explaining you adopt:
“For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himself.â€
“The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do.â€
The easiest method of understanding is to place limitations on the Son during His "economy". This view, though, has other problems inherent in it as well. The separation of the human and the deity was extremely difficult for Christians in the 4th and 5th centuries. They got to the point of killing each other and burning churches down if someone dissented from any perceived orthodoxy.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
free
No it does not mean He took on human nature in its entirety, that is what you said it means and you provide not one shred of evidence. Christ merely changed forms, from a Glorified God Man Mediator unto one that took on the Likeness of sinful flesh, He merely took on flesh and Blood Heb 2:14
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh is all Rom 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=28344&highlight=
You have failed to prove it by scripture.
Yes Christ did come in flesh and blood, in a form of a servant, but after He finished His Work, He went back to the Glory He had before as God Man Mediator Jn 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
The second text does not make your point. There is no need in dealing with it because it does not deny Jesus Christ was a Man before the Incarnation, in fact it affirms that He was Christ Jesus the God Man Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 before the incarnation and gives us His Mindset as He contemplated becoming in the Likeness of sinful flesh or in the form of a servant, so again you have proved NOTHING !
No it does not mean He took on human nature in its entirety, that is what you said it means and you provide not one shred of evidence. Christ merely changed forms, from a Glorified God Man Mediator unto one that took on the Likeness of sinful flesh, He merely took on flesh and Blood Heb 2:14
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh is all Rom 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Thats an insult and false accusation, I have provided a whole thread on this subject !
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=28344&highlight=
You have failed to prove it by scripture.
Yes Christ did come in flesh and blood, in a form of a servant, but after He finished His Work, He went back to the Glory He had before as God Man Mediator Jn 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
The second text does not make your point. There is no need in dealing with it because it does not deny Jesus Christ was a Man before the Incarnation, in fact it affirms that He was Christ Jesus the God Man Mediator 1 Tim 2:5 before the incarnation and gives us His Mindset as He contemplated becoming in the Likeness of sinful flesh or in the form of a servant, so again you have proved NOTHING !
Last edited by a moderator:
I take it to mean the way the Jews accepted it to mean. By Jesus saying He is the Son of God He was making God His Father. They understood exactly what He was saying...a human begats a human, a dog begats a dog, so naturally a God would begat a God. This is why they wanted to crucify Him because He was saying He was equal to the Father.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
ice
Blasphemy !
Blasphemy !
This is exactly what the Jews said! Yet Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN Son of the Father.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
If I was you, I would take a look at the jews history with God and Jesus Christ, not one I would like to emulate much !
I am saying that what YOU said is what the Jews said. They called Christ a blasphemer for saying He was the Son of God.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
stovebolts
Member
- Nov 4, 2004
- 18,905
- 7,268
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Let us start at verse 1.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This is a reference to Genesis 1.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said,
We see that God created the heavens and the earthy by His word as noted in verse 3 3 And God said,
Some view Genesis 1 as an Elhohist text while Genesis 2 is considered a Yawistic text. I would state that YHVH is found in Genesis 1, but not as one might think. It has been well known in Jewish circles before the time of Christ that the Letters YHVH when spoken take on the form of breathing and if one looks at the word for Spirit, we also see that it is the same word translated as wind, but for all practical purposes, to speak requires a breath and so it is that we find YHVH in Genesis 1.
One could argue that it is God's word is what gives the breath of life to all creation and without this breath / word, nothing would have been created.
John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
He is who is known as Jesus according to John, and I'm sure nobody would refute this.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Please see Genesis 1:3 And God said,
John 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
Please see Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
To speak is to breath, but one can breath without speaking. What we see in Genesis 2:7 is something we don't see with any other part of creation. God breathes into the nostrils the breath of life. This is the spark of life that every human being posseses inside themselves.
Please see Ecclesiastes 3:11b He has also set eternity in the human heart;
John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Please see Genesis 1:2b darkness was over the surface of the deep
Please see Genesis 1:3a And God said, “Let there be light,”
It is the nature of light to penetrate though darkness. Darkness does not overcome light. This can be observed. If you bring a candle into a dark room, light disperses darkness. Darkness cannot consume light.
Light is also analogous to good works. Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
I would assert that John relies heavily no the Jewish communities understanding of Torah when reading these verses. And as such I would like to touch on this verse.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
The word dwelling can also be translated as tabernacle. Again, this takes us to Moses at Mt. Sinai and the first covenant and where the tabernacle was made as a copy of heavenly things. So it is that we see the tabernacle pointing to the Christ and as Israel was God's Son, Jesus is God's only begotten son. The book of Hebrews talks much about this as well, but it is beyond the scope of this topic.
Let us start at verse 1.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This is a reference to Genesis 1.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said,
We see that God created the heavens and the earthy by His word as noted in verse 3 3 And God said,
Some view Genesis 1 as an Elhohist text while Genesis 2 is considered a Yawistic text. I would state that YHVH is found in Genesis 1, but not as one might think. It has been well known in Jewish circles before the time of Christ that the Letters YHVH when spoken take on the form of breathing and if one looks at the word for Spirit, we also see that it is the same word translated as wind, but for all practical purposes, to speak requires a breath and so it is that we find YHVH in Genesis 1.
One could argue that it is God's word is what gives the breath of life to all creation and without this breath / word, nothing would have been created.
John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
He is who is known as Jesus according to John, and I'm sure nobody would refute this.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Please see Genesis 1:3 And God said,
John 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
Please see Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
To speak is to breath, but one can breath without speaking. What we see in Genesis 2:7 is something we don't see with any other part of creation. God breathes into the nostrils the breath of life. This is the spark of life that every human being posseses inside themselves.
Please see Ecclesiastes 3:11b He has also set eternity in the human heart;
John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Please see Genesis 1:2b darkness was over the surface of the deep
Please see Genesis 1:3a And God said, “Let there be light,”
It is the nature of light to penetrate though darkness. Darkness does not overcome light. This can be observed. If you bring a candle into a dark room, light disperses darkness. Darkness cannot consume light.
Light is also analogous to good works. Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
I would assert that John relies heavily no the Jewish communities understanding of Torah when reading these verses. And as such I would like to touch on this verse.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
The word dwelling can also be translated as tabernacle. Again, this takes us to Moses at Mt. Sinai and the first covenant and where the tabernacle was made as a copy of heavenly things. So it is that we see the tabernacle pointing to the Christ and as Israel was God's Son, Jesus is God's only begotten son. The book of Hebrews talks much about this as well, but it is beyond the scope of this topic.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
I do not believe nothing like the jews, you just do not understand the debate here. Do you know what it is I am contending ?
Yes...you called me a blasphemer for calling Jesus the only begotten son of God.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Tri Unity
Member
- Jul 24, 2012
- 891
- 0
- Thread starter
- #36
This is how I understand that the Father begat the Son. The early Church understood it this way too. "God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God." (Nicene Creed)
This formulation was a misguided attempt to prevent Arianism; but the Arians agreed with the statement. The early church did not understand what the Arians were teaching, for the strongest statement of the Deity of Christ was fully conceded to by all Arians. It was Alexander of Alexandria, the person who originally challenged Arius, who denounced his own view after Nicaea. Go figure!
smaller
Member
- Oct 23, 2003
- 12,380
- 664
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
No. There is no difference. The Incarnation was the appearance of God in the flesh within His Own creation.
There is only One God. The Son is, in effect, His Own Word and His Image.
The Incarnation, yes. But even prior there were appearances of God Bodily commonly termed Christophanies.
Exodus 24:
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Time(s), worlds and ages are interesting studies of their own.
The crucifixion for example marked out the end of the world:
Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Obviously that 'ending' was not an ending as a fleshly view might see it.
And that same event is also viewed this direction:
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
There is there in effect a marking of the end of a world and the foundation of another.
Paul saw it this way:
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
The deployment of the Word, the Image, God in flesh is an interesting matter. We know that God The Father is Invisible:
1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The Son, His/God's Image:
Colossians 1:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
We in effect who believe do not abide in a Kingdom 'seen.' We abide in the Kingdom of His Spirit:
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
And this, His 'life,' 'our real Life' is hidden:
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
We do not presently see who or what we are. We have a temporal life in a temporal world. Our Hope is here:
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
To attempt to deal with spiritual matters will remain somewhat problematic for now. They are understood in part, seen through darkness and the temporal, through spiritual understandings and in/by shadows.
To force such things into linear/logical thoughts or fleshly reasoning will remain somewhat futile by reasons of the subject matter.
s