The Order of Salvation

[PeterJens]

Does that not still leave Christians damned from the moment that they sin until they repent?
Is the Christian walk really such a roller-coaster of moment by moment uncertainty?
What of the danger of a sin that might be committed unaware forever going unrepented and damn the soul?

In the view that sin causes a broken relationship, rather than rebellion and turning from God is the broken relationship in reality.

Sin is the symptom of a broken or dying relationship, but does not cause the break.
Once confronted with the sin, and the pain and hurt, refusing to resolve this, breaks the relationship, because it becomes obvious the lack of care or desire to find a place of reconciliation.

Paul was blameless in his obedience to the law, but still did not know God. The law reflects the state of the heart not the reality of a relationship. Worship love and praise defines a relationship where faith is put in the Lord hands.

Babes in Christ are just beginning to learn the reality of cleansing, purity, holiness, being in dwelt by the Holy Spirit, but do not know quite what it is, and often can stumble into old ways and problems. If one loses faith one loses everything.
Jesus implies that if we no longer abide in Him, have died in our hearts the Father will break us off the vine. It is quite simple, if one is a branch in the vine, a person of faith, one can die, become fruitless and dead and be pruned from the vine.

As in all relationships, a relationship is a live thing, that needs feeding and sustenance. Once one denies the need for this fellowship, growth, purity and holiness what has one actually become and what life actually lives in ones heart? Without the Holy Spirit one does not know God. God bless you

 

[JLB]

Does that not still leave Christians damned from the moment that they sin until they repent?
Is the Christian walk really such a roller-coaster of moment by moment uncertainty?
What of the danger of a sin that might be committed unaware forever going unrepented and damn the soul?

I guess that is a question each of us must answer for ourselves, as each of us has our own individual unique challenges in this life.

What we do know for sure is the solid rock of the teachings of Christ.

Are we building our lives upon His teachings, or are we concocting scenarios and excuses that arise from shifting sand of man’s doctrine ?


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16



JLB

 

[atpollard]

[John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

1. Whoever believes SHALL NOT perish, but who is “whoever believes”?
2. The “Light” is Jesus. MEN loved darkness rather than Light.
3. Who does evil? (Romans 3:10)
4. ”he who practices the truth” does not do so under his own power, but demonstrates that his deed were “wrought in God”.
5. As the difference between bad soil and good soil lies in the work of the Farmer (God), the difference between the works of those that hide in the dark and those that come into the light is God.

 

[JLB]

Does that mean we are achieve sinless perfection?
If not, then what does ”cleansed of all unrighteousness“ mean?

I really not familiar with the term “sinless perfection”.

Could you post the scripture that uses this phrase?

then we can discuss the scripture and context you are referring to.



JLB

 

[JLB]

[Luke 8:4-15 NASB]

4 When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable: 5 "The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. 6 "Other [seed] fell on rocky [soil,] and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 "Other [seed] fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. 8 "Other [seed] fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great." As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."​

​

9 His disciples [began] questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest [it is] in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.​

​

11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 "Those on the rocky [soil are] those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no [firm] root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 "The [seed] which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 "But the [seed] in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.​

Some broader observations.

1. The seed is the word of God. It is NOT the soil that makes the seed grow. It is not the soil that prepares itself to be good or bad soil. The soil merely exists and the seed will grow in it, or it will not, but the soil can do nothing in and of itself to make the seed grow or stop the seed from growing.
   • [1 Corinthians 3:5-9 NASB] 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave [opportunity] to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
2. God causes His seeds to grow. Not the man that plants. Not the man that waters. Not the soil that God plants it in.
3. We are God’s field. That makes God the Farmer who has the power to work the soil to ‘condition’ it and get it ready for the seed. The Farmer can remove the rocks from His field. The Farmer can break up the hard clumps and turn bad soil into good soil. The Farmer can plow furrows to water the seed. The Farmer can pull the weeds to allow the seed room to grow. The SOIL can do none of these things; it is a passive participant.
   • [Eze 36:25-27 NASB] 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
   • God the Farmer not only CAN prepare the soil, He does.

So what’s your point here?


The point I made was the first step to being saved is to believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you agree or disagree?


If not, then please tell us what we must do to be saved.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

If not, then please tell us what we must do to be saved.

I did.
God must foreknow us, then God must predestine us, then God will call us and God will justify us and God will ultimately glorify us. So what WE MUST DO is be foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified. There are MANY other things that we WILL do, but that is what WE MUST do.

Hence my opinion that God can save an infant who does not first believe (because belief is important, but God is not incapable of saving us without our contributing ‘belief’ on our own power). God can save us without our first being baptized (because baptism is important, but God is not incapable of saving us without our contributing ‘baptism’ on our own power). God can save us without our first being doing good works (because good works are important, but God is not incapable of saving us without our contributing ‘good works’ on our own power).

[John 10:25-30 NASB]
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

• Father gives ‘His sheep’ to Jesus.
• Son leads ‘His sheep’ into eternal life.
• ‘His sheep’ will never perish.
• (What is not to understand?)

Soli Deo Gloria!
(All Glory to God Alone!)

 

[atpollard]

I really not familiar with the term “sinless perfection”.

Could you post the scripture that uses this phrase?

then we can discuss the scripture and context you are referring to.

JLB

Does “cleansed of all unrighteousness“ mean that there is absolutely no more unrighteousness in us and we are completely sinless and perfect just as Jesus was and thus able to live the remainder of our life without ever sinning again? That is called “sinless perfection” by those who believe that human beings can reach that state (Like John Wesley, for one, taught was possible).

I am simply inquiring what “cleansed of all righteousness“ means in comparison to concepts like “the sins that so easily ensnare us” and praying for the brother ”whose sin does not lead to death” and your claim that sin breaks our fellowship with God.

 

[atpollard]

So what’s your point here?

The point I made was the first step to being saved is to believe.

My point was that examining the parable from Luke as a whole reveals that your point may not have been Jesus’ point ... but in any case, there are other points to be gleaned from the same parable that appear to directly contradict your point.

How can it be the “first step” responsibility of the soil, when soil - by its nature of being soil - has no power to change itself? Only the Farmer (God) can change the soil.

 

[JLB]

I did.
God must foreknow us, then God must predestine us, then God will call us and God will justify us and God will ultimately glorify us. So what WE MUST DO is be foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified. There are MANY other things that we WILL do, but that is what WE MUST do.

Those are things God does.


Please tell us what we must do to be saved.



And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Acts 16:30-31

• Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

• Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,
  

This is what the Bible teaches us what we must do to be saved.


Believe.



JLB

 

[JLB]

My point was that examining the parable from Luke as a whole reveals that your point may not have been Jesus’ point .

ok.

Here is what Jesus said -

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.Luke 8:13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

What other point could Jesus be making other than “believe and be saved”.

Jesus plainly says .... believe and be saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


JLB

 

[atpollard]

Is it not interesting that PEOPLE all want to know what THEY MUST DO, and the spokesmen for God all reply with a promise that if they ‘believe’ then THEY WILL BE saved.

Not once did God command “You MUST BELIEVE in order to be saved” or “God COMMANDS you to believe”. Why is that?

Could that be because ... they were saved by grace, through faith and all of it was NOT from themselves and NOT of their works, but rather it was all THE GIFT OF GOD! [Eph 2:8-9]

 

[atpollard]

Here is what Jesus said -

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus plainly says .... believe and be saved.

Are you arguing that Luke chapter 8 only has one verse (#13) or are you arguing that the rest of the parable is irrelevant?

Yes it does say that.
Those whose hearts are as hard as stone have the word snatched from them so they cannot even hear it. That does not mean that the word of God will grow on a stone. The soil (heart) must be softened if the word is to take root and grow to maturity and bare a harvest.

Here is the Hard Soil described in another way in another verse that is not a parable ... [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

You have chosen the perishing as your “poster child” for our call to “believe and be saved”.

 

[atpollard]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Addressed in context already.

 

[JLB]

Are you arguing that Luke chapter 8 only has one verse (#13) or are you arguing that the rest of the parable is irrelevant?

I’m saying that Jesus Christ taught us what a person must do to be saved.

If you believe that the rest of the parable will contradict what a person must do to be saved then please explain. I will listen.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Addressed in context already.

The context is everlasting life.

Here is what Jesus said a person must do to receive everlasting life.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

JLB

 

[atpollard]

I’m saying that Jesus Christ taught us what a person must do to be saved.

If you believe that the rest of the parable will contradict what a person must do to be saved then please explain. I will listen.

JLB

See Post 40

 

[atpollard]

The context is everlasting life.

Here is what Jesus said a person must do to receive everlasting life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

JLB

see Post 43

 

[JLB]

See Post 40

Post 40 doesn’t address what a person must do to be saved.


The Title of this thread is: Order of Salvation


Here is what Jesus said a person needs to do to be saved.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


The book of Acts gives us glimpse into an event where a person asked the same exact question: Acts 16:30-31

Question: Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Answer: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


Here below is post #40. Please copy and paste where you have answered what a person must do to be saved, because I don’t see from your post, where you address the question -

What must a person do to be saved?


Post 40 -

4 When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable: 5 "The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. 6 "Other [seed] fell on rocky [soil,] and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 "Other [seed] fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. 8 "Other [seed] fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great." As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

​

9 His disciples [began] questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest [it is] in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.​

​

11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 "Those on the rocky [soil are] those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no [firm] root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 "The [seed] which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 "But the [seed] in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.​

Some broader observations.

1. The seed is the word of God. It is NOT the soil that makes the seed grow. It is not the soil that prepares itself to be good or bad soil. The soil merely exists and the seed will grow in it, or it will not, but the soil can do nothing in and of itself to make the seed grow or stop the seed from growing.
   • [1 Corinthians 3:5-9 NASB] 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave [opportunity] to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
2. God causes His seeds to grow. Not the man that plants. Not the man that waters. Not the soil that God plants it in.
3. We are God’s field. That makes God the Farmer who has the power to work the soil to ‘condition’ it and get it ready for the seed. The Farmer can remove the rocks from His field. The Farmer can break up the hard clumps and turn bad soil into good soil. The Farmer can plow furrows to water the seed. The Farmer can pull the weeds to allow the seed room to grow. The SOIL can do none of these things; it is a passive participant.
   • [Eze 36:25-27 NASB] 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
   • God the Farmer not only CAN prepare the soil, He does.

JLB

 

[JLB]

see Post 43

From post 43 -


[John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

1. Whoever believes SHALL NOT perish, but who is “whoever believes”?

The question is not who will be saved, but what must a person do to be saved.


The Thread Title is: Order of salvation

If you believe God predestined some for salvation and others for damnation, then that is your choice.

If you want to start a thread on who will be saved, then feel free to do so.


What The question is: What must a person do to be saved?


The book of Acts gives us glimpse into an event where a person asked the same exact question: Acts 16:30-31

Question: Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Answer: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”



JLB

 

[JLB]

Does “cleansed of all unrighteousness“ mean that there is absolutely no more unrighteousness in us and we are completely sinless and perfect just as Jesus was

No our body contains sin that dwells in our flesh.


Jesus had no sin and was not born in sin.

That is called “sinless perfection” by those who believe that human beings can reach that state (Like John Wesley, for one, taught was possible).

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10


While in this body that contains sin, we must crucify it’s passions and lustful desires, by the Spirit, in which we avoid what Paul calls, “youthful lusts”, by investing ourselves towards the desires of the Spirit — he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


Paul also counsels is to “present our members” as slaves of righteousness, which again involves God’s grace; the power of the Spirit working in us.


This is the life of being led by the Spirit.


Walking according to the Spirit.





JLB