The Order of Salvation

[PeterJens]

Agreed. Some feel that we are to forgive only when repentance on their part is show. This could not be further from the truth, since we are to forgive in any case...even if not asked. Jesus forgave his crucifiers even though they never asked for this.


Interesting..there's another member here that agrees with you although I had never thought of it this way. Yes, perhaps it is blasphemy, after all what does it mean but attributing evil to God.


As He does you.

Blasphemy is a hard term. What I noticed is when Jesus faced the pharisees they had a choice. Accept a man born blind was healed by God, therefore the power of God was being demonstrated through at least a prophet, so what they spoke was real, or deny the healing was from God and the prophet was evil. Some chose to go down the line of saying the healing was wrong and the prophet was wrong.

If you get to the point that a work of God cannot overturn your view of reality, there is nothing left. How we come to conclusions is emotional, not intellectual, and comes from the heart. If the heart cannot face the consequence of a change of perspective it then dominates, and repaints reality to conform.

I myself have found this when I read some posts that challenge me, it is hard to read if its meaning implores change and cost to my heart. But in Christ, that is what a sinner has to do to the word of Christ, be prepared to listen and to move, because we know it is He who is author of life, and His perspective that is eternal and true. It is us who are lost and living in the worlds wisdom.

I found myself early on in my christian walk being challenged to judge the charismatic movement as not of the Lord. I realised though I did not understand it and it was disruptive but it brought glory to God and Jesus, so who was I to say this was not His doing. It is hard to realise where we stand is always limited, and we need to test things, and know judgement needs to be balanced and done in love and grace.

Likewise when I meet people full of the Spirit, I find our sharing flows about praise to Jesus and His work in our hearts. This is such a contrast to those who feel they have to test and refine and check where I am coming from rather than sharing their communion with the King. Sadly it shows what they are full of, and what they regard as worthwhile sharing in fellowship. God bless you

 

[JLB]

I found myself early on in my christian walk being challenged to judge the charismatic movement as not of the Lord.

Of course not all of it is.

 

[atpollard]

Of course.
There are some that believe we lose FELLOWSHIP and not salvation.
I don't see this anywhere in the N.T.

[2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 NASB] 14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 15 [Yet] do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

If only God had the same character he asks of us, right? ?

PS. There seem to be a LOT of “Hyper Grace Reformed Bibles” ...

• [ASV] 14 And if any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle, note that man, that ye have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed. 15 And [yet] count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
• [CSB] 14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take note of that person; don't associate with him, so that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet don't consider him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
• [ESV] 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
• [KJV] 14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.
• [NET] 14 But if anyone does not obey our message through this letter, take note of him and do not associate closely with him, so that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
• [NIV] 14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.
• [NLT] 14 Take note of those who refuse to obey what we say in this letter. Stay away from them so they will be ashamed. 15 Don't think of them as enemies, but warn them as you would a brother or sister.
• [RSV] 14 If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

 

[PeterJens]

Of course not all of it is.

I agree. Each situation needs testing like anything. Jesus is our teacher.

 

[atpollard]

[Romans 8:28-30 NASB]

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

Ordo Salutis

1. God foreknew
2. God predestined
3. God called
4. God justified
5. God glorified

All “according to His purpose”.

 

[JLB]

[Romans 8:28-30 NASB]

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

Ordo Salutis

1. God foreknew
2. God predestined
3. God called
4. God justified
5. God glorified

All “according to His purpose”.

Amen.

Great points.


JLB

 

[JLB]

[2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 NASB] 14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 15 [Yet] do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

If only God had the same character he asks of us, right? ?

PS. There seem to be a LOT of “Hyper Grace Reformed Bibles” ...

• [ASV] 14 And if any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle, note that man, that ye have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed. 15 And [yet] count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
• [CSB] 14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take note of that person; don't associate with him, so that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet don't consider him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
• [ESV] 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
• [KJV] 14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.
• [NET] 14 But if anyone does not obey our message through this letter, take note of him and do not associate closely with him, so that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
• [NIV] 14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.
• [NLT] 14 Take note of those who refuse to obey what we say in this letter. Stay away from them so they will be ashamed. 15 Don't think of them as enemies, but warn them as you would a brother or sister.
• [RSV] 14 If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

I love the way you use scripture, and refer to other versions for a greater understanding of passages.


What is the point you are wanting to make here in verse 14 and 15?


For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat. For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies. Now those who are such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that they work in quietness and eat their own bread.
But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. 2 Thessalonians 3:10-15


Paul is giving instructions to Timothy about dealing with people who don’t work.



JLB

 

[JLB]

[Romans 8:28-30 NASB]

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

Ordo Salutis

1. God foreknew
2. God predestined
3. God called
4. God justified
5. God glorified

All “according to His purpose”.

Isn’t believing the Gospel supposed to be in there some where?



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12




JLB

 

[atpollard]

What is the point you are wanting to make here in verse 14 and 15?

You and she were quipping that Scripture nowhere suggests that breaking FELLOWSHIP without loosing an eternal RELATIONSHIP was possible (for God). Those verses command men, by the Apostolic authority of God, to break Fellowship (in order to shame the person into repentance) while never giving up on the Relationship (they remain a brother).

It seems silly to think that God commands of people, something that God himself is incapable of. Thus it seems at least POSSIBLE that God could withdraw the grace of His FELLOWSHIP from an individual in order to drive that individual to repentance without engaging in a see-saw of saved-not saved-saved again. The RELATIONSHIP remains even as a Father disciplines His Children.

 

[atpollard]

Isn’t believing the Gospel supposed to be in there some where?

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

JLB

believing
repenting
baptized
walking in good works

All are part of the journey, but they seem like variable details on HOW God accomplishes His purposes, rather than essential steps.

Can God save a stillborn infant who had no chance to believe or repent?
Can God save a person in a hospital bed with no chance to be baptized?
Can God save a prisoner in solitary confinement with no chance to do good works?

If so, then they are not essential.

Can God glorify someone that was not justified? (I do not believe so). This these are things which are essential. God must CALL and JUSTIFY and GLORIFY. (I am avoiding the controversial ones).

”Believing the gospel” is HOW God CALLS and JUSTIFIES.

 

[JLB]

You and she were quipping that Scripture nowhere suggests that breaking FELLOWSHIP without loosing an eternal RELATIONSHIP was possible (for God). Those verses command men, by the Apostolic authority of God, to break Fellowship (in order to shame the person into repentance) while never giving up on the Relationship (they remain a brother).

Again, my point is, sin separates us from God.


The scriptures you quoted were about Paul teaching Timothy about dealing with people who don’t work, and are a burden on the church community.

No one is saying that a person who doesn’t work, is cut off from Christ, as a branch.

A branch is connected to a vine in permanent relationship as the branch finds its life from the vine. The branch is sustained from the vine. If the branch is removed from the vine it will wither and die, and is gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


Jesus admonishes us to remain connected in relationship to Him as our life: our eternal life.

• If anyone does not abide in Me...

If we become disconnected from Him, we become disconnected from eternal life.


Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Again, this is about love. Obeying His commandments are about love; Loving God and loving people.


If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10








JLB

 

[JLB]

believing
repenting
baptized
walking in good works

All are part of the journey, but they seem like variable details on HOW God accomplishes His purposes, rather than essential steps.

What is the first step man must take to be saved?


From what I see that the scriptures teach, the first step for us to take is to believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16




JLB

 

[atpollard]

Again, my point is, sin separates us from God.


The scriptures you quoted were about Paul teaching Timothy about dealing with people who don’t work, and are a burden on the church community.

No one is saying that a person who doesn’t work, is cut off from Christ, as a branch.

A branch is connected to a vine in permanent relationship as the branch finds its life from the vine. The branch is sustained from the vine. If the branch is removed from the vine it will wither and die, and is gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


Jesus admonishes us to remain connected in relationship to Him as our life: our eternal life.

• If anyone does not abide in Me...

If we become disconnected from Him, we become disconnected from eternal life.


Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Again, this is about love. Obeying His commandments are about love; Loving God and loving people.


If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10

JLB

So how does it not follow as an inescapable consequence that even one sin after salvation negates fellowship with God?

Who obeys His commands fully and all of the time?

 

[atpollard]

What is the first step man must take to be saved?

From what I see that the scriptures teach, the first step for us to take is to believe.

First, what scripture leads you to believe that “believe” is the first step?

Second, then infants who cannot believe, cannot be saved?

 

[atpollard]

[1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NASB]

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is [to be] revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.​

Is it a sin to build on the foundation of Jesus Christ with works that will not survive the test of God? Yet “he himself will be saved”!

[1 John 5:16-17 NIV]

16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.​

It seems like it might be more nuanced than you imply with your quote and absolute position.

 

[JLB]

So how does it not follow as an inescapable consequence that even one sin after salvation negates fellowship with God?

Who obeys His commands fully and all of the time?

Personally I see that we can confess our sin and be forgiven and please see this next part, be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

Cleansed of all unrighteousness!

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


What born again Christian wouldn’t want to be clean and righteous before Him?


Maybe a better question would be what born again Christian would want to live in sin, which is hatred of God and our fellow man?


Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4


JLB

 

[JLB]

First, what scripture leads you to believe that “believe” is the first step?

Second, then infants who cannot believe, cannot be saved?

Here they are again.


What is the first step man must take to be saved?


From what I see that the scriptures teach, the first step for us to take is to believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16




JLB

 

[atpollard]

Personally I see that we can confess our sin and be forgiven and please see this next part, be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

Cleansed of all unrighteousness!

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


What born again Christian wouldn’t want to be clean and righteous before Him?


Maybe a better question would be what born again Christian would want to live in sin, which is hatred of God and our fellow man?


Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4


JLB

Does that not still leave Christians damned from the moment that they sin until they repent?
Is the Christian walk really such a roller-coaster of moment by moment uncertainty?
What of the danger of a sin that might be committed unaware forever going unrepented and damn the soul?

 

[atpollard]

Cleansed of all unrighteousness!

Does that mean we are achieve sinless perfection?
If not, then what does ”cleansed of all unrighteousness“ mean?

 

[atpollard]

From what I see that the scriptures teach, the first step for us to take is to believe.

[Luke 8:4-15 NASB]

4 When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable: 5 "The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. 6 "Other [seed] fell on rocky [soil,] and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7 "Other [seed] fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. 8 "Other [seed] fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great." As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."​

​

9 His disciples [began] questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest [it is] in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.​

​

11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 "Those on the rocky [soil are] those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no [firm] root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 "The [seed] which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 "But the [seed] in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.​

Some broader observations.

1. The seed is the word of God. It is NOT the soil that makes the seed grow. It is not the soil that prepares itself to be good or bad soil. The soil merely exists and the seed will grow in it, or it will not, but the soil can do nothing in and of itself to make the seed grow or stop the seed from growing.
   • [1 Corinthians 3:5-9 NASB] 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave [opportunity] to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
2. God causes His seeds to grow. Not the man that plants. Not the man that waters. Not the soil that God plants it in.
3. We are God’s field. That makes God the Farmer who has the power to work the soil to ‘condition’ it and get it ready for the seed. The Farmer can remove the rocks from His field. The Farmer can break up the hard clumps and turn bad soil into good soil. The Farmer can plow furrows to water the seed. The Farmer can pull the weeds to allow the seed room to grow. The SOIL can do none of these things; it is a passive participant.
   • [Eze 36:25-27 NASB] 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
   • God the Farmer not only CAN prepare the soil, He does.