The Order of Salvation

[JLB]

How can it be the “first step” responsibility of the soil, when soil - by its nature of being soil - has no power to change itself? Only the Farmer (God) can change the soil.

The human heart, unlike the soil, was created in the image and likeness of God, and has the ability to believe.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• For with the heart one believes

JLB

 

[JLB]

I am simply inquiring what “cleansed of all righteousness“ means in comparison to concepts like “the sins that so easily ensnare us” and praying for the brother ”whose sin does not lead to death” and your claim that sin breaks our fellowship with God.

This could be a good thread for you to start.


The order of salvation requires us to believe.

• For with the heart one believes.

JLB

 

[JLB]

[John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

1. Whoever believes SHALL NOT perish, but who is “whoever believes”?
2. The “Light” is Jesus. MEN loved darkness rather than Light.
3. Who does evil? (Romans 3:10)
4. ”he who practices the truth” does not do so under his own power, but demonstrates that his deed were “wrought in God”.
5. As the difference between bad soil and good soil lies in the work of the Farmer (God), the difference between the works of those that hide in the dark and those that come into the light is God.

Are you saying there is no requirement to believe the Gospel?


Maybe you are saying a person must be born again, or saved first, then they believe. I had a person say this the other day.


Is this the point you are wanting to make?



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

The human heart, unlike the soil, was created in the image and likeness of God, and has the ability to believe.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• For with the heart one believes

JLB

I understand the theology, or interpretation.
There is though a mystery. And this is how God brings new birth to His people. We know the word has to be planted, upon which faith rests and belief begins.

The quakers believed everyone already has the word in their hearts. And Paul does seem to suggest this is true in the sense of nature testifying to God. We are also born with a loving disposition towards our parents, in whose hands our very lives rest and even came about.

We like to believe we are believers in facts and realities, but actually we are born emotional creatures who gather facts and make observations and build a strategy of life to cope with the society we grow up in. And when you listen to Jesus's words they are very relational and emotional, and at its core is love, which is about contact, care, understanding, empathy, support, looking for the best in a situation, from the heart.

If this is ones highest ideal, the goal to which we aspire, only those willing to speak heart language will be able to enter in.

When the word reaches you, you may be suffering, defensive, closed down, blocking anything from touching one, or had a plough, opening things up, bringing in need and reality and looking for opportunity and foundations, ready for the seed to be planted.

It is only the open soil that has a chance, and is willing to consider and take time. God chooses to sow through His people and His word, and the believer chooses to respond to the prompting. Without either action, nothing would take place. If you ever talk to young couples, you find this to and fro series of events, giving, receiving, tension, bonding.

Scripture talks about us being the bride of Christ.

7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
Rev 19:7

It is no minor goal, to walk like Jesus, or to begin to ask how did Jesus behave? Why did Jesus behave in this way? How do I look at things as He looked at things?

Paul encourages this attitude among the people of God.
1 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers,
2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need.
1 Tim 5:1-3

This takes a lot of understanding, commitment, knowing boundaries and involvement with people and their situations. To reach maturity, takes time and dedication, a goal in Christ. The seed first falling on good soil is just the beginning of meeting Jesus and His words of good news.

 

[JLB]

This takes a lot of understanding, commitment, knowing boundaries and involvement with people and their situations. To reach maturity, takes time and dedication, a goal in Christ. The seed first falling on good soil is just the beginning of meeting Jesus and His words of good news.

I agree.


If a person on the street came up to you and asked you this question:

What must I do to be saved?


What would your answer be?

Just asking.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You and she were quipping that Scripture nowhere suggests that breaking FELLOWSHIP without loosing an eternal RELATIONSHIP was possible (for God). Those verses command men, by the Apostolic authority of God, to break Fellowship (in order to shame the person into repentance) while never giving up on the Relationship (they remain a brother).

It seems silly to think that God commands of people, something that God himself is incapable of. Thus it seems at least POSSIBLE that God could withdraw the grace of His FELLOWSHIP from an individual in order to drive that individual to repentance without engaging in a see-saw of saved-not saved-saved again. The RELATIONSHIP remains even as a Father disciplines His Children.

Hi A,,,I think you're speaking about me.
I do hear a lot about this fellowship that could be lost, but that it does not mean that relationship is lost. It is sometimes compared to marriage. Some marriages do end up in divorce, and not having fellowship is a big reason.

I think a thread on what fellowship is would be a good idea.
Maybe we could speak to this in more detail?

Coming soon....

 

[PeterJens]

I agree.


If a person on the street came up to you and asked you this question:

What must I do to be saved?


What would your answer be?

Just asking.



JLB

I would say "Believe in Jesus and listen to Him"
I have done street evangelism, and presented this very issue.
My summary is always underlining the state of man as sinners, building society and continually failing. Jesus, the Lord coming with a message of spiritual rebirth through repentance and faith to build an eternal Kingdom that works.

One thing that struck me today, is the preaching of Peter to the jews was saying in effect, Israel was called as a nation to follow God, it failed. It held up morality as its justification, yet when the Lord came in the form of Jesus, they killed Him.
So what will God do in response to the killing of His son?
Nineveh was judged and unless they repented and started walking the straight path they would be destroyed.
John the Baptist came with a similar message, the Kingdom of God is near, get right with God, before judgement falls.

The difficulty is going beyond a repentant heart into connecting with others and walking in God grace and love in all ones deeds and actions. Much of what drives us and challenges us is hidden, and feel the tension of this against the word of God.

I find this as problematic as any other believer, the passions of the flesh over the way of the Spirit. If you could choose a sense of bliss instead of the cost of daily life, which would one choose?

Living in a city with so many superficial contacts possible, it is always possible to fall for the image rather than real meaning and depth. The gloss of beauty, in house, looks, career can become all consuming, and the emotional investment destroys oneself.

So the next level down to the question, "what must I do to be saved?", begins to be answered in about seeing reality and walking in the love of Christ than the superficial trapping of popularity and success or likes on Instagram.

In talking to some believers it is apparent their faith does not even begin to address this truth or the world, because they have no intention of leaving this world, and want both the promises of eternity with the riches and success of being recognised here.

 

[JLB]

I would say "Believe in Jesus and listen to Him"

Amen. I agree.


I just don’t see why this is an issue with some people.


Believe is the first step we must take in order to be saved;
Born again, regenerated.


But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:39




JLB

 

[PeterJens]

You and she were quipping that Scripture nowhere suggests that breaking FELLOWSHIP without loosing an eternal RELATIONSHIP was possible (for God). Those verses command men, by the Apostolic authority of God, to break Fellowship (in order to shame the person into repentance) while never giving up on the Relationship (they remain a brother).

It seems silly to think that God commands of people, something that God himself is incapable of. Thus it seems at least POSSIBLE that God could withdraw the grace of His FELLOWSHIP from an individual in order to drive that individual to repentance without engaging in a see-saw of saved-not saved-saved again. The RELATIONSHIP remains even as a Father disciplines His Children.

Three different examples spring to mind
David and Bathesheba. David feel, committed adultery, murdered the husband by proxy, yet repented and got right with God. His sin was rebellion, but not worked out through all aspects of his life. He came back and sorted out the issues.
Samson and Delilah. Samson was Gods judgement on the Philistines, yet he ended up sinning, and breaking his vow as a Nazarite. Again he repented and sorted out his standing with God.
Peter denied Jesus three times, in great grief repented, and came back to Jesus.

Emotions are powerful things, and can knock us sideways, get everything out of proportion and cause trauma. But our true intentions, our real goals and balances can come back, put things straight and we walk on. Now which is the true individual, and which the aberration?

Salvation, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, communion with God, resolving failures and walking deeper in Christ. We are the temples of the Holy Spirit, Holy, purified and cleansed. We are tied to this belief by scripture, which also ties us to grace as we learn and grow in Him. We need a theology of defilement and loss, else we end up with people full of the Holy Spirit and demon possessed. We also need a resolution to losing ones faith and being restored.

We may understand the idea of dwelling and loss differently to God. Certainly it is very clear people can be blessed in the Holy Spirit, and it is not the Holy Spirit but emotionalism and heresy. I have therefore become more reluctant to be dogmatic, and more favour a praising heart of worship to Jesus is enough for me. God bless you.

 

[PeterJens]

Amen. I agree.


I just don’t see why this is an issue with some people.


Believe is the first step we must take in order to be saved;
Born again, regenerated.


But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:39




JLB

Spiritual walk.
People have different experiences of coming to Christ and different ways of expressing their faith and steps. My observation is without faith in Jesus, how can anything else flow.

We also have within the church unbelievers, who are being taught you can be anointed by the Holy Spirit, but not believe in Jesus, or need to repent etc. The confusion is this "new age" emotional experiences are no longer christian, but have the label.

I would therefore suggest one has to know peoples background to see if they actually have the same faith as oneself, though initially one assumes such a thing, it does not follow at all. God bless

 

[PeterJens]

A pastor of my church, who has now left, got involved with a wife of another member of our congregation. The woman in question, her husband had had an affair, so there were grounds for a divorce etc.
The young pastor who was currently married, was the son of a pastor and had married as a teenager. He felt his reasons for marrying were based on his social associations and family, not his choice from the heart. He now knew what he really wanted, so could be honest for the first time and therefore count his current marriage as being possible to annul by God.

He then felt free to marry this divorced woman who he had previously got to know.
What was a key theme here is what is connecting with individuals, and what is marriage and identity? This young man decided his identity with this woman mattered more than anything else, more than the gospel or Jesus.

I am sure a belief that believing in Jesus is salvation, and consistency and reality not so would be very appealing. And people with these kind of histories often will resist the move to repentance and restitution, because they are carrying so much confusion and guilt. And when you say God is calling us to this road, they will cry out in pain that you are bringing condemnation to them, so you must be evil.

So when we say, I wonder why people find this hard to accept, the cost of certain positions to them are very painful, while others, are like heaven and pure acceptance.

What Jesus spoke still applies today

19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
John 3:19-21

 

[JLB]

I find this as problematic as any other believer, the passions of the flesh over the way of the Spirit. If you could choose a sense of bliss instead of the cost of daily life, which would one choose?

Living in a city with so many superficial contacts possible, it is always possible to fall for the image rather than real meaning and depth. The gloss of beauty, in house, looks, career can become all consuming, and the emotional investment destroys oneself.

Thank goodness He promises ... where sin abounds, grace much more abounds.


We need more grace living in society today, than the first Century Church did. How simplistic life must have been, with no technology, and internet, television, radio, movie theaters, and every kind of distraction this world has to offer.



Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. James 1:27




JLB

 

[atpollard]

WHAT MUST WE DO TO BE SAVED?
(which is technically not the same thing as the “Order of Salvation”)

Given the following:
[Romans 8:28-30 NASB]

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

What WE must do is:

1. Be foreknown by God
2. Be predestined by God
3. Be called by God
4. Be justified by God
5. And we have the assurance that we will be glorified by God.

Given the following:
[Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB]

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

​

What WE must do is:

1. Be dead in our sins; children of wrath as the rest.
2. Be loved by God with a great love.
3. Be made alive by God while we were yet dead.
4. Receive the gift from God: saved by grave through faith.
5. (What we do not need to do is work for our salvation and have something to boast about.)
6. Be Gods workmanship (masterwork) created in Christ.
7. Walk in the good works that God has prepared for us in advance.

Given the following:
[Hebrews 10:16-17 NASB] 16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," [He then says,] 17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
[Jeremiah 31:33-34 NKJV]
33 "But this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


What WE must do is:

1. Receive God’s law on our hearts and minds, written by the hand of God.
2. God even tells us how he does this ...
   • [Ezekiel 36:26-27 NASB] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
   • God removes our heart of stone (dead) and God gives us a heart of flesh (living).
   • God places His Spirit in us and God causes us to walk in His statutes.

That is my answer to the question:
“What must we do to be saved?”

 

[atpollard]

• For with the heart one believes

JLB

Do you mean with THIS heart:
[Jeremiah 17:9 NASB] 9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

or with THIS heart:
[Ezekiel 36:26 NASB] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

?

 

[JLB]

Do you mean with THIS heart:
[Jeremiah 17:9 NASB] 9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

or with THIS heart:
[Ezekiel 36:26 NASB] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

?

No the heart that hears the Gospel and receives the gift of faith and grace to believe.

That’s why the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, for everyone who believes.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16




For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• For with the heart one believes...

JLB

 

[atpollard]

No the heart that hears the Gospel and receives the gift of faith and grace to believe.

That’s why the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, for everyone who believes.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• For with the heart one believes...

JLB

Finally, complete agreement on the source of our belief. ?

 

[JLB]

It’s good to understand that at the moment of salvation, when unregenerate man becomes born again, saving grace is made available to the lost person that he may repent and be saved, as Paul describes in the book of Romans.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

• for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes

There is the power of God made available unto salvation, for those who believe it. As we see further in Romans, this believing results in obeying what is therefore heard and believed.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17


So these two additional elements are required at salvation, besides faith and grace, according to the scriptures:

The Gospel being preached in which hearing and believing take place.


The Gospel being preached that results in hearing, hearing that results in faith being produced in the unregenerate, the believing what is heard so that obeying occurs (by grace); resulting in salvation for an unregenerate person.



Paul actually breaks this down for us, this way —


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!”
Romans 10:14-15


I guess my question would be:

Where does the idea come from that a person must first be saved in order to believe?


The scriptures teach us one must believe, then salvation results from believing.





JLB