The perfect 'man'?

[Merry Menagerie]

If we don't allow God to do the work in us then God allows us to suffer so that we are then forced to allow God. Look at the story of Jonah and the prodigal son.

 

[Imagican]

If we don't allow God to do the work in us then God allows us to suffer so that we are then forced to allow God. Look at the story of Jonah and the prodigal son.

So, I take it that you believe that you need make NO effort. Just sit back and let God do it all? That God will love Himself 'for you' and God will love your neighbor 'for you'? Come on now, I think I know you better than that.

And so far, all you've tried to do is debate whether 'we' are responsible for 'any' of our own behavior or not.

How about finding the scripture that offers proof of anything that has been stated so far?

Jonah didn't refuse to 'love' God, he simply refused to obey Him. And I think that the lesson of the prodigal son had more to do with forgiveness than ANYTHING else. You know, like a parable. God as the son's father, us as the fathers son? Kind of like the angels rejoicing...........

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Yes no effort at all - I rest in him. God does it all for me. That's true freedom in Christ.

 

[Imagican]

Wow. So, I guess that you really don't understand what has been offered in this thread.

So, from what you offer, God expects NOTHING of you. He is there to offer all, yet you are expected to offer nothing but 'your rest'? He offered His Son, yet you don't believe that He expects 'anything' in return?

So, when Christ COMMANDED us to LOVE God, and LOVE our neighbors as ourselves, you don't think that anything that you do can aide you in this direction. You may just sit back and wait for God to somehow offer this love for you?

Interesting philosophy.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

There is nothing of worth that I can offer him. Everything that is good in me is from Christ. Any obedience that I do is Christ doing it - not me. Any love that I have is by the HOly Ghost.

 

[cj]

So, when Christ COMMANDED us to LOVE God, and LOVE our neighbors as ourselves, you don't think that anything that you do can aide you in this direction. You may just sit back and wait for God to somehow offer this love for you?

Interesting philosophy.

God makes a very interesting study indeed.


Imagican, concerning the law of Moses, didn't God know that men would be unable to keep it even before He gave it?

Did it ever occur to you that Christ, God, when He commanded us to love God and love our neighbor was following the same line of thinking that God had expressed thousands of years before?


Take some time to read of the series of verse where Jesus asks Peter if he loved Him (the feed my sheep verses). The words translated "love" that Jesus used in the first two instants are from the Greek word "agape", meaning a higher and nobler form of love, but the word Jesus used in the last is from the Greek word "phileo", which is used to describe a more general form of affection.

Peter on the other hand used "phileo" (general affection) in all the instants he answered Jesus.

What this shows us is that the human understanding of love is not the same as God's understanding. Humans have a lower understanding, and thus a lower expression that comes out of their lower understanding.

To better see what I'm saying, also take a close look at Peter's use of the words "know"; when he says "Lord you know all things" he is in fact speaking of subjective consciousness, that Jesus can perceive the inward parts, but when Peter says after the, "You know that I love You" he is speaking about the outward, objective knowledge (cross reference John 8:55, where the same thing takes place).


Humankind fall short of perfect love in our efforts. No matter how hard we try we will always fall short. And in this shortfall we will stumble where Jesus' commands are concerned.

Fact is, humans are not capable of loving God with a perfect love, and even less capable of it where other humans are concerned.

And its understandable, because perfect love is just God Himself expressed.

And this is why God has place Himself in us, one with us; those that believe in Him. So that we can love Him with His love.



Concerning "sitting back and doing nothing",... once He saves us God most certainly expects people to cooporate with Him. But this cooporation is not according to the manner that humans are use to, it is not according to human concepts.

For a human to "be still" is the hardest thing we can attempt to do. But being still is actually the beginning of defeating the work of the enemy in our being.

Death is about as "still" as a man can get, and this is what God brings us into before we can even begin to cooporate with Him in anything.

If we have not experienced death in an aspect of our being then no matter how hard we try to love God out of this part of our being the best that we can do is a type of phileo love, and not perfect love. And this is not what God is after in, and out, of us.


So in a sense MM is very correct in saying that there is no need to do anything. Yet,..... having been brought into the cross, and risen up in resurrection life, there now is most certainly "work" to be done. And this "work" will bring persecution, heartache, pain, and suffering; Jesus told us this Himself.

The problem believers encounter, because of natural tendencies... and poor teaching/ministry,.... is that on being saved we run off thinking we need to be doing this or that to save the world.

Truth is, God's already saved the world. What He needs are for the folks who have been brought into His salvation work to express this truth in all aspects of their earthly life.

Hope this helps.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

There is nothing of worth that I can offer him. Everything that is good in me is from Christ. Any obedience that I do is Christ doing it - not me. Any love that I have is by the HOly Ghost.

To a point MM, but God chose you because He has determined to need you.

So don't downplay that which God has chosen.

You are a chosen vessel to contain the riches of God. This is a very wonderful thing.

But what must be learned is that our rejoicing in this fact, our boasting in it, must be in the Lord, and not in ourselves.

And this takes time to learn.


In love,
cj

 

[Imagican]

Nice one Cj. I get it, I really do.

But let's take another step, a deep one:

You and others say that it is impossible for man to 'be perfect'. If this is so, we struggle to NO avail.

What gets in the way is the 'understanding' of 'perfect'.

In order to grasp what I offer, we must 'first' realize what God wants for us. If one believes that God simply wants us to be obedient to His laws, then the answer is NO, one cannot be perfect.

However, if one is able to 'truly' come to the realization of God's purpose for us, then at this point it IS possible for him to 'be perfect'.

God wants us to be what He created us to be in the beginning. He would have eventually offered the 'fruit' of the 'tree of knowledge', but knew that it wasn't possible for us to partake of it 'until' we were READY. The 'tree' would have served NO purpose on the planet had it NOT been God's intention to 'one day' allow us to partake of it. There was simply ONE aspect of man's spirit that needed to be mature enough to 'handle' it. Now, what was this aspect?

We have certainly been here long enough now to understand it and to even exhibit it if we allow the Spirit to 'truly' guide us. If we allow Christ to 'live' in us, we then are capable of exhibiting the 'same' perfection that distinguishes God and Christ from man.

We were obviously given this 'potential' at creation for, we WERE created in the image of God. Given ALL the potential to 'one day' be 'like' Him in certain 'key elements'. Otherwise, we have been 'tricked' into a life without the possibility of 'the promise', offered at creation.

I offer that we ARE capable of 'perfect' understanding of what God IS. And with this understanding comes the potential ability to emulate that which we understand. By saying all this I by NO means am in ANY way trying to state that this can be achieve by man 'on his own'. It certainly takes God's intervention to offer the understanding of which I speak.

There was ONLY ONE REASON that the 'tree of life' was denied to man; Disobedience. Disobedience brought sin. Sin brought separation and this is the state that man lived in until Christ. True?

So, now that Christ has come and the offer has been made, all one is expected to do is accept the offer and allow God once again to 'be with us', literally. We NOW have the ability to LOVE God as He loves us. And as we develope a deeper and deeper sense of His love, we too are able to 'reflect' this love to Him and others. THIS my friends is PERFECTION; the understanding and emulation of WHAT God IS. When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with. That which was 'in part' was the 'law', given to us as a 'teacher' of love. That which is perfect HAS come, and it is the understanding and ability to emulate the LOVE of God.

Christ offered us the perfect 'example' of this LOVE. That is why we SHOULD be 'truly' Christian, (Christ-like). He loved His Father above ALL else, and He loved His neighbor as Himself. So much so that He was willing to offer Himself as a sacrifice for ALL MEN. Once we understand and reflect this 'same' love, we ARE 'perfect' in understanding.

What is 'that which is perfect'? LOVE. Once one arrives at the point that they are willing to 'offer ALL' of themselves to God and his neighbor, there is NOTHING of purer perfection that exists. That is what God has done for us as an example, and that's what He has led us to BE.

Once one realizes this, there is NO MORE LAW. What one does that pleases our God is LOVE. LOVE for Him, and LOVE for our brothers and sisters. Once we can put aside self and accept this, we become 'true' Christians and Saints.

Paul understood this and tried his best to pass it on to others. The biggest problem was/is the inability for man to accept the love offered because of his guilt through sin.

Look at David for an example. When it would have been 'easier' for David to simply turn his back on God instead of facing the guilt of his sins, he refused to submit to this state and instead prayed and fasted all the more fervently. This endeared him to God like NO OTHER.

My point? Even when we sin and are separated from God, this is ONLY temporary so long as we return to His grace and forgiveness. We are NOT alone in this struggle and the more we allow God's forgiveness into our lives, the more we are able to understand His LOVE. The more we are able to understand His LOVE, the more capable we are of reflecting THIS LOVE.

Forgiveness guys and gals, THAT IS LOVE. God IS LOVE. So what does that signify to us? That we were certainly created with the potential for 'perfection', (we were created in God's image). To deny this potential is to say that we WERE NOT created in His image. NO, we will NEVER 'BE' God, but we were certainly given the potential to be 'like' God in LOVE.

 

[cj]

... NO, we will NEVER 'BE' God, but we were certainly given the potential to be 'like' God in LOVE.

Actually, following your thought, in theology Jesus is recognized as a "God-man".

This is why,.... He carries two titles, the Son of man and the Son of God.

(This is crucial to understand as it is the crux of God's plan in defeating His enemy, but we'll leave that of another time. Just understand that Satan was always trying to get Jesus to conduct Himself according to His title of Son of God while He lived out His 30-odd years on the earth. Because, if Satan could get Him to do thie, Satan would negate the effectiveness of Jesus' humanity. This would mean no justification for mankind. Jesus succeeded as a man, as the perfect man, and thus set the precedent that God is justified in saving men. Meaning, if one man can be perfect all men can be perfect.)


God's plan of salavation for men is the most beautiful expression of pure wisdom, truth, and knowledge. There is no other "plan" that can ever come close to what is found in God's plan of salvation.

Do you realize that every principle used in every effective and successful plan ever made by men is founded on the divine principles of God. And what God has done with His plan of salvation is produce a truly and utmost greatest work ever.

And mankind was at the center of this eternally divine and magnificent work.


In love,
cj

 

[Merry Menagerie]

There is nothing of worth that I can offer him. Everything that is good in me is from Christ. Any obedience that I do is Christ doing it - not me. Any love that I have is by the HOly Ghost.

To a point MM, but God chose you because He has determined to need you.

So don't downplay that which God has chosen.

You are a chosen vessel to contain the riches of God. This is a very wonderful thing.

But what must be learned is that our rejoicing in this fact, our boasting in it, must be in the Lord, and not in ourselves.

And this takes time to learn.


In love,
cj

There is nothing in me that warranted the choosing. I am who I am now because of my Lord Jesus Christ - it's him who gets the glory and I rejoice in that.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Nice one Cj. I get it, I really do.

But let's take another step, a deep one:

You and others say that it is impossible for man to 'be perfect'. If this is so, we struggle to NO avail.

Why struggle? The battle has already been won.

However, if one is able to 'truly' come to the realization of God's purpose for us, then at this point it IS possible for him to 'be perfect'.

We are already perfect in Christ...all because of Christ's doing not ours.

We have certainly been here long enough now to understand it and to even exhibit it if we allow the Spirit to 'truly' guide us. If we allow Christ to 'live' in us, we then are capable of exhibiting the 'same' perfection that distinguishes God and Christ from man.

See here I kinda agree to an extent. Yes we are capable of showing the perfection of Christ.

We were obviously given this 'potential' at creation for, we WERE created in the image of God. Given ALL the potential to 'one day' be 'like' Him in certain 'key elements'. Otherwise, we have been 'tricked' into a life without the possibility of 'the promise', offered at creation.

We were made in the image of God. Sin entered and corrupted this image. But because of Christ we have now become that image once again through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Our flesh is still waiting the redemption and will never be perfect until it puts on incorruption when Jesus returns.

I offer that we ARE capable of 'perfect' understanding of what God IS. And with this understanding comes the potential ability to emulate that which we understand. By saying all this I by NO means am in ANY way trying to state that this can be achieve by man 'on his own'. It certainly takes God's intervention to offer the understanding of which I speak.

Spiritually we are already made perfect. Again...our flesh will NEVER be perfect until it is redeemed.

There was ONLY ONE REASON that the 'tree of life' was denied to man; Disobedience. Disobedience brought sin. Sin brought separation and this is the state that man lived in until Christ. True?

Yes

So, now that Christ has come and the offer has been made, all one is expected to do is accept the offer and allow God once again to 'be with us', literally. We NOW have the ability to LOVE God as He loves us. And as we develope a deeper and deeper sense of His love, we too are able to 'reflect' this love to Him and others. THIS my friends is PERFECTION; the understanding and emulation of WHAT God IS. When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with. That which was 'in part' was the 'law', given to us as a 'teacher' of love. That which is perfect HAS come, and it is the understanding and ability to emulate the LOVE of God.

The love of God is the love of God. It's his love that is shed abroad in our hearts not ours. It has nothing to do with us but rather it's the HOly Spirit that produces this love through us.

Christ offered us the perfect 'example' of this LOVE. That is why we SHOULD be 'truly' Christian, (Christ-like). He loved His Father above ALL else, and He loved His neighbor as Himself. So much so that He was willing to offer Himself as a sacrifice for ALL MEN. Once we understand and reflect this 'same' love, we ARE 'perfect' in understanding.

And the only way for this to happen is by resting in Jesus and take your hands off yourself. Get your filthiness away from God's work and allow Christ to shinel. It's very simple and oh the burden is oh so much lighter when you just stop TRYING so hard and rest in Christ.

Once one realizes this, there is NO MORE LAW. What one does that pleases our God is LOVE. LOVE for Him, and LOVE for our brothers and sisters. Once we can put aside self and accept this, we become 'true' Christians and Saints.

See now I agree with you here except you put a lot of the 'work' on us like we have to 'try' to love so that we can live lawless. I say we dont' have to try anything - just have faith in the one who resides in us and rest in him.

Look at David for an example. When it would have been 'easier' for David to simply turn his back on God instead of facing the guilt of his sins, he refused to submit to this state and instead prayed and fasted all the more fervently. This endeared him to God like NO OTHER.

He really didn't have a choice though - the consequences of his actions forced him to turn from his ways. That was my point about Jonah and the prodigal son.

My point? Even when we sin and are separated from God, this is ONLY temporary so long as we return to His grace and forgiveness. We are NOT alone in this struggle and the more we allow God's forgiveness into our lives, the more we are able to understand His LOVE. The more we are able to understand His LOVE, the more capable we are of reflecting THIS LOVE.

We sin everyday. Our flesh is still separated from God and will be until it is made incorruptible. Our Spirit, however, is in complete union with Him and is perfect and sinless and without blame because of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Forgiveness guys and gals, THAT IS LOVE. God IS LOVE. So what does that signify to us? That we were certainly created with the potential for 'perfection', (we were created in God's image). To deny this potential is to say that we WERE NOT created in His image. NO, we will NEVER 'BE' God, but we were certainly given the potential to be 'like' God in LOVE.

Our flesh will never be like God until it is made incorruptible.

 

[cj]

There is nothing in me that warranted the choosing. I am who I am now because of my Lord Jesus Christ - it's him who gets the glory and I rejoice in that.

That's all wonderful and great, and sounds really humble and stuff.

But I tell you what, let God allow you to be persecuted, imprisoned, judged unfairly, mocked and beaten, and then slowly murdered, my thought is that you will have a question or two regarding whether or not you really deserved all this suffering.

And the reason you would ask the question is simply because deep inside you believe there is something of value, that should not have to go through the suffering.

But that's another topic.... let's get back to the crux of what we're speaking about...


Yes there is nothing in any human worth saving,.... but so what?

If God decides that He wants to place value in something then who are you or I to question His doing so?

Case in point,..... if you believe that humans have no value then you should have no problem with people being killed, raped, tortured, beaten, etc. etc.... but you do right, and so does God.

How do you perceive another person? Do you say to yourself "There goes a valueless creature."


MM,.... this is the truth concerning Christ and men,..... Christ becomes the POSSESSION of saved men upon their believing. And it is this Possession that gives a man value.


And one last thing,... you say...

... it's him who gets the glory and I rejoice in that.

Well, maybe two things,....

First, we are (becoming) God's glory, or so the bible says.

Have you ever thought of that? Or do you just see God's glory as some sort of ethereal thing only visible as it floats around in heaven?

And number two,...

You said "I rejoice in that."..... But its funny that you say "I" rejoice, for how can a valueless thing even consider that they have any ground on which to stand and say "I"?

Or maybe you don't realize that the moment you say "I" you have in fact given yourself value.


God said "Jacob I love."

Wow, if that isn't enough to claim value then perhaps you believe that God's love is of no value.


MM, God's ways are not man's ways, and God's way of seeing things is not man's way.


In love,
cj

 

[Merry Menagerie]

You have absolutely no idea!

 

[thessalonian]

Why struggle? The battle has already been won.

:o

[3] Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
[4] In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
[5] And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? -- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor lose courage when you are punished by him.
[6] For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."
[7] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
[8] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
[9] Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
[10] For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
[11] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
[12] Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
[13] and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed.
[14] Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
[15] See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled;
[16] that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
[17] For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

 

[cj]

You have absolutely no idea!

Praise the Lord, I'm glad I don't.

I'm not interested in having ideas, reality is far better.


I once started to give someone my testimony and he turned to me and said, "Everyone has a story."

His simply comment shut my mouth pretty effectively.

Fact is, everyone does have a story; and who feels it knows it.

So then what. So you've felt pain and suffering. So have I, and so have millions upon millions.

Again, so then what?

You say you are who you are now because of Jesus Christ. Well, yes and no, according to the bible.

Paul says in Philippians 2:12, "So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;"

And before that, concerning the Lord in His humanity, Paul said in verse 8, "And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of a cross."


Consider also Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."


Paul shows us that there certainl is an "I", meaning a "me", sonewhere in this relationship with God.

So when we decide to rule out this fact we are really not be honest regarding what scriptures say.


I can't give you the answer to why God loved me, or any of us for that matter, but the scriptures say He just did, and does.

And what is needed is a response from us to His love.

Mankind wasn't created unto death, we were created unto life.

But never forget that God had an enemy in His creation, and that it was this enemy who came in and corrupted mankind by infusing us with his (Satan's) corruption.

Mankind was created as a vessel to contain God, and God chose to stick to His purpose and desire for mankind. Therefore, as a vessel to contain God, according to His own words, mankind is a "very good" vessel.

And no, we must not pride ourselves on the fact that we are very good vessels, we must give thanks to God that He created us as such.

But the fact remains, He created us as very good vessels to contain Him.

And Jesus proved that God was ,... first, justified in creating mankind, and second, in providing salvation for mankind.


Jesus is a man, never ever forget this.

God became a man. The God of all creation chose to become a man.

What does that tell you regarding God's take on the mankind He created?

But thus does not mean that we have to suffer from the same fall that Satan did.

Scriptures say that God created Lucifer perfect, that Lucifer locked up perfection.

This means that nothing else in creation could top Lucifer.

But Lucifer fell because he came to believe that this perfection meant that he was equal to God.

Wrong move. There is only one God.

But, at some point in time there was one God,.... and one absolutely perfect created being.

But this changed when Lucifer fell.

Yet, God restored this reality to His creation with Jesus, the God-man, for what God did was take something created lower than Lucifer, man, and make this lower creature higher than Lucifer.

But how, if Lucifer locked up perfection?

By making man one with God.

Only God was higher than Lucifer, thus to make any other created being higher than Lucifer required God making a created being one with Him.

And God chose men who believe to become this higher than Lucifer regarding created beings.

He has taken that which was lower and used it to shame His enemy to the utmost. What Lucifer so desired, God has given to a creature lower than Lucifer.

Who is man that God would bestow such grace upon him?

Its not a matter of who man is, but of who God so chooses.

Yet, He chose man.

And as a man that He chose I most certainly will rejoice, and rejoice again.


In love,
cj

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Why struggle? The battle has already been won.

:o

[3] Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
[4] In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
[5] And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? -- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor lose courage when you are punished by him.
[6] For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."
[7] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
[8] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
[9] Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
[10] For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
[11] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
[12] Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
[13] and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed.
[14] Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
[15] See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled;
[16] that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
[17] For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

Spiritually speaking LOL

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Why do people complicate issues. I am who I am because of Christ, I rest in him and I am hid in him until the day of redemption. It's as simple as that and by faith I hold onto that. More so now than any other time in my life. I am relying on Jesus Christ to GET ME THROUGH because I can't! I have no other choice. I HAVE to take my hands off my life and leave it in God's hands and trust that he has my best interest at heart.