The "plain words of Scripture"

[Jim Parker]

Or perhaps more accurately, "the way I want to see it".
It's amazing how church folk gloss right past plain passages of scripture when they don't fit their predetermined theology. Simply amazing.

Well said.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Still curious; is your practice to perform self mutilation when one of your body parts sins? Being such a "plain words" kind of guy.

It's interesting that you insist on ignoring the plain words of Jesus explaining what the hand, foot, and eye are metaphors for.

No, He didn't "explain" that. He was simply making a contrast between heaven and hell. He said nothing about what causes one to go to either.

Those of us who can see, and want to see, can see he does in fact plainly explain that: Keep the stumbling block--go whole, you and your stumbling blocks, into the fiery, eternal hell. Cast the stumbling block from you--enter eternal life with those who cause stumbling cut off from you. Plain as day.

All the disagreement about what the Bible is saying. It shows that plain words don't make a whole lot of difference to understanding what is being said.

This thread is demonstrating how people can look right at the plain words of scripture and simply not want to see them, for all the various reasons they choose to not see them. That's where the disagreement comes from.

The Bible is very plainly written, but through the last few centuries the (Protestant) Church has spawned many self-appointed leaders who claim it's a mysterious book that doesn't really mean what it plainly says and that they have the real interpretation of it. It's a joke actually. A really bad joke. But I know this is just a sign of the times as prophesied:

2preach the word; be ready in season andout of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:2-4 NASB bold mine)

See? The desire to accumulate teachers who teach what one wants to hear is what the problem is. It's not that the truth is not available and can't really be known no matter how plainly it is written. This desire to only see what one wants to see in the plain words of the Bible is the problem. We're witnessing a glowing example of that right here in this thread.

 

[Jim Parker]

He was simply making a contrast between heaven and hell. He said nothing about what causes one to go to either.

Really??
According to "the plain words of scripture" in that passage, what did Jesus say was the difference between heaven and hell?

 

[Free]

This thread is demonstrating how people can look right at the plain words of scripture and simply not want to see them, for all the various reasons they choose to not see them. That's where the disagreement comes from.

The Bible is very plainly written, but through the last few centuries the (Protestant) Church has spawned many self-appointed leaders who claim it's a mysterious book that doesn't really mean what it plainly says and that they have the real interpretation of it. It's a joke actually. A really bad joke. But I know this is just a sign of the times as prophesied:

2preach the word; be ready in season andout of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:2-4 NASB bold mine)

See? The desire to accumulate teachers who teach what one wants to hear is what the problem is. It's not that the truth is not available and can't really be known no matter how plainly it is written. This desire to only see what one wants to see in the plain words of the Bible is the problem. We're witnessing a glowing example of that right here in this thread.

That is only one of several problems, as I previously pointed out.

 

[JLB]

Just these. Have you literally obeyed these plain words?

I have found through the plain words of scripture, that I, by the Spirit can put to death the deeds of the flesh.

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13

Those who do not put to death the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit, will have to resort to cutting off the hand or their eye.

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5:29-30


In the context of this passage Jesus is speaking to His disciples, His sheep, and warning them that it would be better for them to enter into life maimed, rather than be cast into hell, whole.

This is very plain, and can not be explained away.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe that believers who practice sorcery will not inherit the kingdom of God, which DOES NOT refer to the lake of fire.

Edited

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Same with liars. All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

All liars includes "all".


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

I believe that believers who practice sorcery will not inherit the kingdom of God, which DOES NOT refer to the lake of fire.

You're not making any sense.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Those who practice sorcery will not inherit the kingdom.
There are only two places to be after the resurrection: (1) the kingdom and (2) the lake of fire.
There is no "door number 3."
There is no "Limbo."
If an alleged believer practices sorcery then he goes to the lake of fire.

 

[JLB]

You're not making any sense.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Those who practice sorcery will not inherit the kingdom.
There are only two places to be after the resurrection: (1) the kingdom and (2) the lake of fire.
There is no "door number 3."
There is no "Limbo."
If an alleged believer practices sorcery then he goes to the lake of fire.

Exactly.


The plain words of scripture, are clear as to "what" inherit the kingdom of God means.

You either have your part in the kingdom of God, or have your part in the lake of fire.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

All the disagreement about what the Bible is saying. It shows that plain words don't make a whole lot of difference to understanding what is being said.

I disagree. Just because of disagreement doesn't mean the OP isn't true. I showed from Scripture that Jesus' figures of speech weren't being understood, even by His own disciples.

The point being, when defending one's doctrines, one shouldn't rely on passages with figures of speech, but on plain words.

Let me provide an example, for clarity.

There are 2 passages relied on heavily by the OSNAS side that uses figures of speech (metaphors) of branches being cast into a fire, and they CLAIM that is "plain language" about loss of salvation, or being cast into hell.

But, is it really such "plain language"? No, it isn't.

If there were plain language on loss of salvation, then there would be a verse warning directly of loss of salvation. That IS plain language.

Conversely, the OSAS side quotes from Rom 6:23 and 11:29 to show that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. That IS plain language.

 

[FreeGrace]

If I read the same Bible version I will learn seven different Life Applications from the same scripture.

7? Not less, or more? Where does this number come from?

We need to cease the conflict, those of us under the Spirit, need to begin to see how things fit together.

First, the conflict is created by those who aren't "rightly dividing the Word of Truth", plain and simple. Paul never hesitated to challenge anyone who was preaching or teaching falsely. He even went after Peter, one of the pillars among the apostles, for his hypocrisy.

First, we need to learn submission.

No disagreement here.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's interesting that you insist on ignoring the plain words of Jesus explaining what the hand, foot, and eye are metaphors for.

I think your problem is that the "plain words" of self mutilation aren't being followed. You'd be consistent in your view if they were.

Those of us who can see, and want to see, can see he does in fact plainly explain that: Keep the stumbling block--go whole, you and your stumbling blocks, into the fiery, eternal hell.

His entire point was contrasting heaven and hell and that it's far better to enter heaven than hell.

Cast the stumbling block from you--enter eternal life with those who cause stumbling cut off from you. Plain as day.

The claim does not make it true.

 

[FreeGrace]

Really??
According to "the plain words of scripture" in that passage, what did Jesus say was the difference between heaven and hell?

He didn't say "difference". Jesus was making the point that it's FAR BETTER to enter heaven than to enter hell.

He made NO statement about how to enter either.

 

[JLB]

He didn't say "difference". Jesus was making the point that it's FAR BETTER to enter heaven than to enter hell.

He made NO statement about how to enter either.

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5:29-30


In the context of this passage Jesus is speaking to His disciples, His sheep, and warning them that it would be better for them to enter into life maimed, rather than be cast into hell, whole.

This is very plain, and can not be explained away.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Just these. Have you literally obeyed these plain words?"

I have found through the plain words of scripture, that I, by the Spirit can put to death the deeds of the flesh.

Changing the goal posts. The passage is about cutting off offending hands or plucking out offending eyes. It said nothing about putting to death any of the body parts.

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13

This wasn't the passage under discussion.

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5:29-30

There it is, the passage under discussion. Nothing about putting to death anything.

So, again, have you literally obeyed THESE plain words about plucking out your offending eye, or cutting off your offending hand?

 

[FreeGrace]

That's because you deny the plain words of scripture.

This is a direct violation of the TOS. Don't tell me what I deny.

 

[JLB]

I think your problem is that the "plain words" of self mutilation aren't being followed. You'd be consistent in your view if they were.


His entire point was contrasting heaven and hell and that it's far better to enter heaven than hell.


The claim does not make it true.

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5:29-30


This warning is to disciples, believers, His sheep.

It would be better to enter into life maimed, than be cast into hell, whole.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Changing the goal posts. The passage is about cutting off offending hands or plucking out offending eyes. It said nothing about putting to death any of the body parts.

Jesus says to us who believe, and are His sheep, His disciples, that it would better to enter into life maimed, than be cast into hell, whole.

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5:29-30

Why would Jesus warn His people of them going to hell, if it weren't true?


That's the point you keep ignoring.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I believe that believers who practice sorcery will not inherit the kingdom of God, which DOES NOT refer to the lake of fire."

You're not making any sense.

Seems like plain words to me. What didn't make sense?

Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Those who practice sorcery will not inherit the kingdom.
There are only two places to be after the resurrection: (1) the kingdom and (2) the lake of fire.
There is no "door number 3."

I never said there was a door #3. Why did you assume I even thought so?

There is no "Limbo."[P/QUOTE]
I never said anything about limbo. Why did you assume I even thought so?

If an alleged believer practices sorcery then he goes to the lake of fire.

This view simply ignores the FACT that "to not inherit" doesn't mean "won't get in". That, too, is an assumption, of which your post is full of.

There are 3 parallel passages about "inheriting the kingdom"; 1 Cor 6, Gal 5 and Eph 5. Both 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5 have the phrase "will not inherit the kingdom", while Eph 5 has the phrase "will have no inheritance in the kingdom".

Both phrases are about the SAME THING. So what IS clear is that having "no inheritance in the kingdom" doesn't mean "go to hell" or even close to that. It means exactly what it says, IN the kingdom, they wil have no inheritance.

It's not good to make assumptions about verses.

 

[FreeGrace]

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5:29-30

Have you complied with the requirements of this passage?

In the context of this passage Jesus is speaking to His disciples, His sheep, and warning them that it would be better for them to enter into life maimed, rather than be cast into hell, whole.

Yes, it would be better. Which was Jesus' point. And mine as well.

This is very plain, and can not be explained away.
JLB

Sure seems a lot of people are trying to.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus says to us who believe, and are His sheep, His disciples, that it would better to enter into life maimed, than be cast into hell, whole.

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5:29-30

Why would Jesus warn His people of them going to hell, if it weren't true?

He wasn't.

That's the point you keep ignoring.

I haven't ignored it. I reject it as false.