What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The point of no return

jeff77

jeff77

Member
He that being often reproved and hardeneth his neck shall be suddenly destroyed and without remedy.
Proverbs 29:1

I was at a Bible study last night that talked about a "point of no return" basically saying that people are put under conviction by the Holy Spirit many times and at some point God could give up on you if you keep rejecting him time after time. I had never heard this before as I always thought that God never gave up on people until they died.
 
I've never been to any place where I've found the promise, "I will never leave nor forsake you," to be doubted, but King Saul comes to mind here.

"And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD." The voiced repentance appears sincere and genuine, as well as absolute and complete, yet it is rejected by Samuel: "And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel."
[1 Samuel 15:26]

We see later, "So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshiped the LORD."
[1 Samuel 15:31]

Was it Esau who sought repentance with tears but it was not found? "For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."
[Hbr 12:17 KJV]

We hear of the possibility of being "turned over to one's sin".

My thought is that God judges the whole person and the entirety of the heart.
 
I don't think Proverbs 29:1 is talking about a point of no return while we are alive.
When we die, (destroyed), there is no remedy.
We will suddenly realize we are lost forever.
The Holy Spirit is always there for us.
John 3:16-17
God wants to save us, not condemn us.
The choice is there all the days of our lives.
Yes, he may turn us over to our sins, but we still have a choice to repent.
When he hardens our hearts to sin, we still have a choice.
When Pharaoh's heart was hardened, he could have still cried out to God before he died.
When Judas betrayed Jesus, he could still have repented afterwards but didn't.
The choice is there to the end of this life.
 
jeff77 said:
Hey I found this old thread I started about a topic going on in a similar thread right now.
Click to expand...
The judgment for the sin of blasphemy (rejecting the undeniable testimony of the Holy Spirit) begins in this age, not after you die.

When a person resists, and resists, and resists some more, God eventually takes away the truth from a person so they have no choice but to engage the lie they prefer. He does this so they will make their own case for damnation sure and be judged accordingly at the resurrection.

Some people may think it out of character for God to do that, but that is what the scriptures teach.
 
Sparrowhawke said:
I've never been to any place where I've found the promise, "I will never leave nor forsake you," to be doubted, but King Saul comes to mind here.

"And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD." The voiced repentance appears sincere and genuine, as well as absolute and complete, yet it is rejected by Samuel: "And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel."
[1 Samuel 15:26]

We see later, "So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshiped the LORD."
[1 Samuel 15:31]

Was it Esau who sought repentance with tears but it was not found? "For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."
[Hbr 12:17 KJV]

We hear of the possibility of being "turned over to one's sin".

My thought is that God judges the whole person and the entirety of the heart.
Click to expand...
I believe that this is "reaping what you sow" not a persons salvation.

King Saul was rejected from being king over Israel. His salvation was not in question. Any of us can have a "job" from the lord and screw it up and later repent of our actions in that "Job" and not get our old Job back.

Esau had tears about the inheritance and what he gave up. He wanted his blessing back that he gave away. His salvation is not in view here.
 
Am I reading this verse out of context?
Mat 12:20 a bruised reed he shall not break, and smoking flax he shall not quench, till he may put forth judgment to victory,

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A heart broken and bruised, O God, Thou dost not despise.
Isa 40:11 As a shepherd His flock He feedeth, With His arm He gathereth lambs, And in His bosom He carrieth them : Suckling ones He leadeth.
Isa 61:3 To appoint to mourners in Zion, To give to them beauty instead of ashes, The oil of joy instead of mourning, A covering of praise for a spirit of weakness, And He is calling to them, `Trees of righteousness, The planting of Jehovah--to be beautified.'
Eze 34:15 I feed My flock, and cause them to lie down, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah.
Eze 34:16 The lost I seek, and the driven away bring back, And the broken I bind up, and the sick I strengthen, And the fat and the strong I destroy, I feed it with judgment.

2Co 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2Co 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
 
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

These do not sound like repent sinners to me. These never had converted, they knew there was a God but they had chosen not to follow. They had chosen not to seek Him out. Here Paul is explaining that from the very beginning of time God had made Himself known to man. Therefore, God was not unjust in rejecting them.
I can't see anywhere or any way that this scripture can be applied to one who turns and cry out to the Lord. For if the Lord had rejected them they would never cry out to Him. They would never have the promptings of the Holy Spirit to do so. So as those above they continue in their evil ways.
 
gr8grace3 said:
Esau had tears about the inheritance and what he gave up. He wanted his blessing back that he gave away. His salvation is not in view here.
Click to expand...
The author is indeed talking about salvation:

"14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 12: NASB)

Popular doctrine in the church today says it is not necessary to live a sanctified life to 'see the Lord', and that it's impossible to forfeit the promise through sinning. Only over comers will be saved, not people who say grace is a license to sin.

People are afraid to say sinning will keep you out of the kingdom because they think that amounts to a works gospel, not knowing that the willful sinning that keeps one out of the kingdom is the sinning that represents an absence, or failure of, or contempt for the faith that surely does justify all by itself apart from works.
 
jeff77 said:
I was at a Bible study last night that talked about a "point of no return" basically saying that people are put under conviction by the Holy Spirit many times and at some point God could give up on you if you keep rejecting him time after time. I had never heard this before as I always thought that God never gave up on people until they died.
Click to expand...
Here's an example of God giving people up to their sin and refusing to acknowledge them any further concerning their repentance:

11 Therefore thus says the Lord, “Behold I am bringing disaster on them which they will not be able to escape; though they will cry to Me, yet I will not listen to them. 12 Then the cities of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem will go and cry to the gods to whom they burn incense, but they surely will not save them in the time of their disaster. 13 For your gods are as many as your cities, O Judah; and as many as the streets of Jerusalem are the altars you have set up to the shameful thing, altars to burn incense to Baal.

14 “Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them; for I will not listen when they call to Me because of their disaster. (Jeremiah 11:11-14 NASB)
 
God's holy trait of long suffering does not mean forever:

3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (Genesis 6:3 NASB)
11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. (Genesis 6:11-13 NASB)

If I understand correctly, the 120 years is the deadline God set on his striving with the flesh of men. Then that striving ended and he destroyed all corrupt flesh by flood.
 
Here's another example of how God's patient striving eventually comes to an end and does not continue on forever in the name of mercy:

20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.21 I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.22 Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds." (Revelation 2:20-22 NASB)
 
Deborah13 said:
Am I reading this verse out of context?
Mat 12:20 a bruised reed he shall not break, and smoking flax he shall not quench, till he may put forth judgment to victory,

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A heart broken and bruised, O God, Thou dost not despise.
Isa 40:11 As a shepherd His flock He feedeth, With His arm He gathereth lambs, And in His bosom He carrieth them : Suckling ones He leadeth.
Isa 61:3 To appoint to mourners in Zion, To give to them beauty instead of ashes, The oil of joy instead of mourning, A covering of praise for a spirit of weakness, And He is calling to them, `Trees of righteousness, The planting of Jehovah--to be beautified.'
Eze 34:15 I feed My flock, and cause them to lie down, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah.
Eze 34:16 The lost I seek, and the driven away bring back, And the broken I bind up, and the sick I strengthen, And the fat and the strong I destroy, I feed it with judgment.

2Co 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2Co 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
Click to expand...
How does the consciously unrepentant, willfully sinning person represent a weak and broken spirit that God should exercise unending mercy and patience with them?
 
Deborah13 said:
I can't see anywhere or any way that this scripture can be applied to one who turns and cry out to the Lord. For if the Lord had rejected them they would never cry out to Him. They would never have the promptings of the Holy Spirit to do so. So as those above they continue in their evil ways.
Click to expand...
The point is he gave up on them....in this life.

And it's true they don't (can't) cry out to him from the point of view of eternal damnation. They no longer have any capacity to care about spiritual truths. They may cry out to him when the physical life gets tough. But God will not hear their cry, just as he will not hear their cry when they insist they should be let into the kingdom at the resurrection when they can see the reality of the suffering they are about to enter into.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The point is he gave up on them....in this life.

And it's true they don't (can't) cry out to him from the point of view of eternal damnation. They no longer have any capacity to care about spiritual truths. They may cry out to him when the physical life gets tough. But God will not hear their cry, just as he will not hear their cry when they insist they should be let into the kingdom at the resurrection when they can see the reality of the suffering they are about to enter into.
Click to expand...

We see they were wrapped up in abominations and they stayed there.
No reference to them crying out later.
No reference to them thinking they were saved but they really weren't.
Sorry it's just not there. Pick another scripture.
 
The only point of no return is when one physically dies without being in Christ and Christ in them. After physical death comes Gods judgement so salvation is now before one dies.

2Co_6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Exo_33:5 For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.

2Ch_30:8 Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.

Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
 
Deborah13 said:
We see they were wrapped up in abominations and they stayed there.
No reference to them crying out later.
No reference to them thinking they were saved but they really weren't.
Sorry it's just not there. Pick another scripture.
Click to expand...
You're scaring me, Deborah, lol.
 
so If I didn't repent from my bisexual nature and prayed the sinners prayer and went to church for one month and then never, ever went back and then denied that god existed and hated Christians today for not voting for me to able to marry. upon my death I would be in hell or heaven?i know where I was headed. I was headed to satan. I felt the pull of him in that sin and drawing away of it from God. I had a choice. one or the other.

some here would said well he didn't repent. or that I would be in heaven. either way its a danger to be there. I will say this, sin will make you cynical toward god. theres a class im in now that is really hard on the student in that God is taking us where we don't want to go and two threads have touched this stuff. one was on forgiveness and another I cant remember as it was an old one that was revived. the class had 80 and now its down to may be 30. what is so hard about this? its basics. forgive, repent, and love in general, and also other things.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top