The Return of Christ

[for_his_glory]

Are you on the basis we are under a "new covenant" scrapping all OT Prophecy? Are you discarding OT promises made to Abraham even before the Law was given? The NT relies heavily on OT Prophecy, and in fact the early Church relied much on the OT Bible without living under the OT system. The promises, prophecies, and moral code of God remain forever. The word of God endures forever.

No, I never said that. God's promises, prophecies and moral code are forever. Without the writings in the OT we would not have the NT.

 

[for_his_glory]

Moses prophesied about the coming of Jesus in Deuteronomy 18:15-22, where he spoke of a future prophet who would be like him and whom the people must listen to. Many Christians interpret this as a reference to Jesus, who fulfilled the law and brought a new covenant.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

What Jesus has already fulfilled is that of the Temple and the sacrifices as He brought us under a new covenant of God's grace through Jesus being the last sacrificial Lamb.


There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

We need to present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us. This is a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

When Christ returns then all will be fulfilled.

 

[RandyK]

No, I never said that. God's promises, prophecies and moral code are forever. Without the writings in the OT we would not have the NT.

Yes, I kind of knew that. You would certainly believe in God's eternal words, both past and present. And yet, you used the argument that the OT prophecies were "old," and not to be confused with NT truth. We therefore have to specify which OT prophecies remain valid, as opposed to using general arguments aimed at invalidating them.

For sure, some OT prophecies have been fulfilled, and are no longer valid. They've been fulfilled. But Israel was a big part of the old covenant and yet is still viable as a nation in terms of the future fulfillment of OT prophecies. I think that's what I meant to say.

It is thought by many amillennialists and replacement theologians that the concept of Israel as a "nation" has dissipated and has been relegated to the dustbin of history. The Church today is a new kind of nation, always intended to fulfill the "shadow" of OT Israel.

Only today we have a different kind of "nation," they say, indicating that it is a non-ethnic conglomerate of all nations, and not really "nations" as such at all. I would preserve the OT concept of an Israeli "nation" as part of God's eternal promise to save Israel "as a nation."

I hope you understand? Whether you agree or not, I hope you understand what I'm saying and what my argument is? I certainly don't wish to misrepresent what you believe, nor to offend you! I accept you as an exemplary Christian.

 

[Elijah7777]

there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood.

Psalm 119 is full of verses where the psalmist expresses deep love for God's law, seeing it as a source of guidance, wisdom, and well-being. For example, Psalm 119:92 says, "Unless Your law had been my delight, I would then have perished in my affliction." This suggests that God's law was a source of comfort and survival for him.

Similarly, Psalm 119:130 states, "The entrance of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple." This verse highlights how God's law illuminates the path and provides wisdom.

David (or the psalmist) saw God's law not as a burden but as a blessing—a way to grow, thrive, and stay close to God.

In Romans Paul says: It is written. He is talking about what David says about the Law of God in the Psalms.

 

[Elijah7777]

I believe this is just "spiritual language." I don't think it's talking about celibacy, but about ritual purity under the Law as it is fulfilled in Christian holiness, whether in marriage or without it.

The Bible is always literal first. We teach the literal Bible to children in Sunday school. Then, when they are older, we can teach them the symbolic Bible and what things represent.

In Hasidic Jewish communities, traditional teachings emphasize modesty, family values, and religious observance. Girls typically receive religious education focused on Jewish law, customs, and responsibilities within the community.

Regarding marriage, Hasidic customs generally follow Jewish law, which traditionally values virginity before marriage and emphasizes marital intimacy only within the framework of marriage.

This is what results in the purity that God wants for the 12 tribes of Israel. It is a miracle of God that He is able to keep them pure all these years. This not only impacts marriage but has a impact on adoption also. Like I said the movie "A Stranger Among Us" attempts to explain Hasidic marriage to non Hasidic people. As the way they live there life is to be an example to others of purity.

Of course the only DNA evidence we currently have is for the purity of the Cohans . There has been genetic research on the Cohen (Kohen) lineage, particularly focusing on the Y-chromosomal Aaron hypothesis. Studies have found that many Jewish men who identify as Cohanim (descendants of the biblical priestly class) share a common Y-chromosome marker, known as the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH)

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, I kind of knew that. You would certainly believe in God's eternal words, both past and present. And yet, you used the argument that the OT prophecies were "old," and not to be confused with NT truth. We therefore have to specify which OT prophecies remain valid, as opposed to using general arguments aimed at invalidating them.

For sure, some OT prophecies have been fulfilled, and are no longer valid. They've been fulfilled. But Israel was a big part of the old covenant and yet is still viable as a nation in terms of the future fulfillment of OT prophecies. I think that's what I meant to say.

It is thought by many amillennialists and replacement theologians that the concept of Israel as a "nation" has dissipated and has been relegated to the dustbin of history. The Church today is a new kind of nation, always intended to fulfill the "shadow" of OT Israel.

Only today we have a different kind of "nation," they say, indicating that it is a non-ethnic conglomerate of all nations, and not really "nations" as such at all. I would preserve the OT concept of an Israeli "nation" as part of God's eternal promise to save Israel "as a nation."

I hope you understand? Whether you agree or not, I hope you understand what I'm saying and what my argument is? I certainly don't wish to misrepresent what you believe, nor to offend you! I accept you as an exemplary Christian.

The fulfillment of prophecy is in that of Jesus life, death and resurrection that we can reconcile ourselves back to God through His grace before the return of Jesus. Our covenant promise from God is that we will have eternal life with Him, John 10:27, 28, through grace that we can reconcile ourselves back to the Father and live our lives according to His will.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshiping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1 Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The Temple Mount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original Temple Mount.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean's) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.

 

[for_his_glory]

Psalm 119 is full of verses where the psalmist expresses deep love for God's law, seeing it as a source of guidance, wisdom, and well-being. For example, Psalm 119:92 says, "Unless Your law had been my delight, I would then have perished in my affliction." This suggests that God's law was a source of comfort and survival for him.

Similarly, Psalm 119:130 states, "The entrance of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple." This verse highlights how God's law illuminates the path and provides wisdom.

David (or the psalmist) saw God's law not as a burden but as a blessing—a way to grow, thrive, and stay close to God.

In Romans Paul says: It is written. He is talking about what David says about the Law of God in the Psalms.

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

​

 

[Elijah7777]

Our covenant promise from God is that we will have eternal life with Him, John 10:27, 28

Is life so wonderful that we want this to go on forever?

 

[Elijah7777]

There are laws (commandments) of God that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite.

King David expressed this idea in Psalm 51:16, where he says: "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings."

Similarly, in Psalm 40:6, he states: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but my ears You have opened. Burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not require."

David emphasizes that God values a humble and repentant heart more than ritual sacrifices. His words reflect a deeper spiritual truth—that true devotion comes from sincerity and inner transformation rather than external rituals.

 

[RandyK]

The fulfillment of prophecy is in that of Jesus life, death and resurrection that we can reconcile ourselves back to God through His grace before the return of Jesus. Our covenant promise from God is that we will have eternal life with Him, John 10:27, 28, through grace that we can reconcile ourselves back to the Father and live our lives according to His will.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshiping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1 Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The Temple Mount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original Temple Mount.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldean's) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshiping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.

I understand your position. I have a different position, and I was hoping you would recognize that--at least be able to express what it is? So often I have disagreements over various issues only to find that somebody is giving their own position without even taking the time to know what I'm saying contrariwise!

So, I don't insist that anybody agree with me--only that if they wish to argue or discuss different positions be able to recognize what my position really is, before dismissing it. Otherwise, no discussion or argument is really taking place.

Perhaps you do know what I've been saying? I don't know because you don't repeat back what I've been saying--only argue your own view based on what you think you heard me say. I can't tell if you heard me correctly or not? My position is not always the current popular view, making it a little harder to understand at present.

When I say God promised a "nationality" to Abraham, I'm not saying He promised Abraham only a minority within a nation, nor simply an ethnicity. I'm saying that as imperfect as a nation of God is, producing it would still be fulfilling the promise that God made.

Would God promise something that is imperfect, such as a nation? Israel clearly showed how flawed a theocracy can be!

I would have to say that's precisely what God promised. And He didn't discard His promise to create that nation and to sustain that nation simply because Israel failed. As Paul argued, Man's failure is not God's failure--God will be faithful still!

So despite Israel's failures and being dismantled as a nation, I believe God's promise to sustain the Israeli nation remains in effect, even though it has taken about 2000 years! God's promise to create and maintain the nation still stands, as I see it. No failure of Israel can undo God's promise and word! That's my position.

The same is true of Christian nations in history. Rather than face reality, many Christians today would even deny that there has been such a thing as "Christian nations" for the same reason you reject Israel as a theocracy today. They are mixed, and fall.

But again, God's promise to Abraham is sure, that there must be the Israeli nation and many nations of faith. Those nations will be restored as Christian nations, including Israel, in my eschatology.

I just want to be sure you understand my position. That way we can respectfully disagree, as opposed to rejecting something we may not fully understand about one another. Thank you.

 

[Elijah7777]

So, I don't insist that anybody agree with me

It is not a question of disagreement. Your focus is so narrow. For example, Paul talks about how Gentiles are grafted into the family of Abraham. Abraham was given all of the Arab continental plate. This is the new Jerusalem, 1500 by 1500 by 1500 miles. This includes mineral rights and airspace above. We are told there will be many nations. There are the sons of Hagar that we call Muslims today, and the son of Sarah, from her old age. Abraham walked all the way around that land to claim it for his descendants. People need land to grow food so the more land you have the more descendants you will have. Of course different people receive different rewards. Some will be given a lot of land and some not so much. I think I will be given a condo to use when I go to visit the promised land.

 

[RandyK]

It is not a question of disagreement. Your focus is so narrow. For example, Paul talks about how Gentiles are grafted into the family of Abraham. Abraham was given all of the Arab continental plate. This is the new Jerusalem, 1500 by 1500 by 1500 miles. This includes mineral rights and airspace above. We are told there will be many nations. There are the sons of Hagar that we call Muslims today, and the son of Sarah, from her old age. Abraham walked all the way around that land to claim it for his descendants. People need land to grow food so the more land you have the more descendants you will have. Of course different people receive different rewards. Some will be given a lot of land and some not so much. I think I will be given a condo to use when I go to visit the promised land.

Yes, I like that last part! ;) My wife and I have sometimes talked about selling our house and moving into a condo with a great view and no landscaping work to do.

But there are problems with this. Number one, the HOA fees have gone up horribly! And individual owners have no control over it. And two, you're stuck with the neighbors you get. So, I'm going for acreage in heaven! ;)

I don't believe, however, I'm thinking narrow about the New Jerusalem. I'm fully aware it covers the entire Middle East, and not just Israel. However, nations come and go from it--perhaps there are many other cities on earth equally wonderful? So are *you* too narrow? ;)