The Police Officer

[Northman]

even in the pro gun states, one of which is where I live. it will be investigate if I shoot an intruder. it has to verify that he did break in. he shot from the front and even from the rear there has to be evidence that he broke in. its a loaded question. the Zimmerman case is in my state. the stand your ground act allows for self defense but its not a perfect law. case in point Zimmerman. he did imho place himself in that situation. he didn't have to follow Trevon, at all, while he did likely turn around, we will never know the full story.

I'm not talking about an investigation though.

 

[jasonc]

I know your Canadian and they have that anti gun stance that makes no sense. but that is really extreme. basically if the man is raping your spouse, you will do more time then the assailant? is that the case?

 

[reba]

public roads yes but unless you live in a county or state and have kids that is required to have power and water one doesn't have to have power or water . one can lawfully use a flow well and solar power or what not. you are paying the utility to provide a service. you don't have to pay for that. that is the distinction. when I read Gifford or a few other areas we have people that don't have either and dwell in the home with kids or as single persons. usually the extreme poor.

Jason if you use any public utilities.. say the restroom at gas station... Many of the small towns in California have non citizen groups..

 

[Northman]

I know your Canadian and they have that anti gun stance that makes no sense. but that is really extreme. basically if the man is raping your spouse, you will do more time then the assailant? is that the case?

Yes. Oh so very much more. Even if the assailant didn't die you could be sure that everything firearm related you have will be seized and be barred from ever being able to have one again. Not sure if you would get that news before or after you got out of prison.

 

[jasonc]

Jason if you use any public utilities.. say the restroom at gas station... Many of the small towns in California have non citizen groups..

you aren't paying for that. he or she that owns that but yes I see that. I was thinking of you have a water meter from a grid that provides it. where my parents, brother and monica live once had its won water and sewer grid and the so did the trailer park where I lived but the county bought out both as it got too expensive to maintain those things.

 

[jasonc]

Yes. Oh so very much more. Even if the assailant didn't die you could be sure that everything firearm related you have will be seized and be barred from ever being able to have one again. Not sure if you would get that news before or after you got out of prison.

there are some nuts that have made it that way in the us. ie Chicago if you own a gun that is illegal and never used in a crime. you get more time then the guy who buys a gun lawfully and kills or robs. go figure.

 

[Deborah13]

you aren't paying for that. he or she that owns that but yes I see that. I was thinking of you have a water meter from a grid that provides it. where my parents, brother and monica live once had its won water and sewer grid and the so did the trailer park where I lived but the county bought out both as it got too expensive to maintain those things.

We paid to have the electric line from the road to our house installed and to have the meter installed. We did the dirt work for the trench ourselves. Our monthly bill is pretty steep, I think.

 

[Deborah13]

And that was the original intent wasn't it? There is something amiss now though. I know it's different for lots of you folks just because of where you live. Understand though that where I live it is illegal to prepare for your defence, to defend yourself or family with deadly force under most circumstances that only courts get to decide after the fact, or to offend someone by mentioning sin. These are just a couple of examples where the government has taken it upon itself to override God and say that these things are lawless. It's gets worse in other places, as everyone well knows.

There are laws, such as what you are talking about, that do more harm to the citizens, as a whole, than good. The right to defend one's life and frankly anyone's who is being attacked, I believe is God given. The right to worship and preach God's Word is another. Fortunately in our country, some of the most wealthy and powerful agree. But we need to get these progressive liberals out of government or I believe we will loose.
It makes me both sad and nervous when I hear about what has been going on in your country.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. I've been busy putting up firewood and hosting a home schooler's meeting.

My comments are in red text.

And with all that, you STILL didn't explain HOW you did it. I could have explained the details of my particular situation but, other than satisfying your curiosity, they aren’t that relevant at the moment, as the essential ingredient is the truth of Jesus Christ and him alone. There is more than one way to skin this cat, but they are ALL founded on the Truth. It might be a bit premature to start running when many are yet learning to walk. You said you can use other ID, which in rare cases between some countries is true, but you didn't say what ID you used since you reject using most or all of the forms of ID that would be accepted. I don’t "reject" Caesarian ID’s; the word of God does. And I don’t ever use the abbreviation ID in speaking. Rather than using the words of the world to describe us, we should use the words of Christ to define us. I have more knowledge of how these things work than the average person and I can say without any doubt that a lot of what you are talking about here simply will not work. It does “work,” and it has worked, for me, and for my family. If you or anyone else were to actually do these things you would get into a lot of trouble very quickly. Initially, the police power often does wonder why my family and I do not react in fear, as virtually all their other contacts do. It’s an excellent door opener to witness, while also declaring the Law. Walk circumspectly; maintain the demeanor of an ambassador, as Christ so commands his people. Seriously, you expect me to believe you get away with these things by claiming diplomatic immunity as an "ambassador of Christ"??? I don't think so! Your belief is entirely yours. I “expect” no-thing of you, and I’m not here to convince you of anything. Rather, what saith scripture?

When a man professes to be a follower and ambassador of Christ and yet acts in a manner that tells the whole world that he is a pagan, then he is bearing false witness to the whole world. Can the officer be blamed for writing his traffic ticket in such a case? Obviously not! These Christians honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from him (Isaiah 29:13, Matthew 15:8, Mark 7:6).

On the other hand, if you act in the mode and character of a true bondman and ambassador of the Christ, there are alternatives to State licensure. And all presumptions are rebuttable. Your activity cannot be of a commercial nature, but limited to only one purpose; ministering for the Lord. This does not mean that you must be a minister "ordained" by men. It means that you live, move, and have your being in Christ; it means you are not doing your own will, but the will of the Father.

There are no gray areas. It’s either, "render unto Caesar" or "render unto God" (Luke 20:25). There are no guarantees or silver bullets available when dealing with Caesar, but there is the Promise of Christ, the Higher Power, for "with men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37; 18:27). The shield of faith must be carried at all times. It is not a matter of "getting away with it," it is a matter of honoring the Father first and standing on the Word of God and bringing his truth to them, no matter what the consequences.

I sure hope no one reading this is influenced to try any of this. As I’ve stated, it might be a bit premature to start running when many are yet learning to walk. First we lay the scriptural groundwork, then we can talk practicalities, the mechanics.

I know this to be true. I helped a young man having this problem with a state agency. Don't settle for it, move on up the order of authority. I called the state governor, it was taken care of before the day ended.

...if you are even able to successfully connect to one of their “wizards.”

I think the issue there would be that if you broke the laws of that state, as a transient, etc. they would be within their authority to escort you to the state line and tell you not to come back. The misunderstanding here is caused by conflating “the laws of that state,” with God’s Law. They are kingdoms apart, and every Caesarian judge in the land knows that. And “transient” is a legal term, usage of which brings you into Caesar’s jurisdiction via the lex mercatoria. As far as driver's licensing goes, I know for a fact, that if one will research and take the time, one doesn't not have to have a government issued driver's license....I learned enough that all charges were dropped. I’ve met some who have had limited, and arbitrary, successes with such “documentation.” However, I do not carry or possess ANY license, paper, or artifact whatsoever. I do, however, carry my Law with me 24/7, and that Law is the uncopyrighted Holy Bible (i.e. AV). There are many scammers out there willing to sell you out for filthy lucre, giving the true bond servants of Christ a bad name. There is NOTHING that can be carried, signed, or displayed that can improve on the Holy Bible -- in fact, those things will DETRACT from your position as an ambassador of Christ. In the US, common law jurisdiction is the key even if you do make contracts with the state. The preferred position is to have made ZERO “contracts with the state.”

The constitutional attorney, that I speak of, has never been licensed. He passed the bar but refused to take the oath. He said something like, the oath binds the attorney to the rules and regulations, thus nullifying their duty to uphold the Constitution and Common Law. He wasn't about to do that. So the guy got the Caesarian education, even paid for it, but then turned his back on the Caesarian credential/sheepskin because of the duties attached thereto (i.e. the requisite rendering to Caesar). I'd really like to have an in depth discussion with him now, 30 yrs. later. I could do that and should. His insights into what is going on in Washington and elsewhere today would be very interesting. Certainly would. He's rather well known in the western part of the midwest as he has taken on the federal government more than once. Is he born again? (If not, he labours in vain.)

...So what sojourner is saying may not be so farfetched. As I mentioned, I do not enter into any contracts with the purported government.

Some people have reservations about not having a license. Some feel justified in getting a license if they use their vessel to exercise God's will. For example, someone may use their pick-up truck because they feel it's God's will that they plant trees. And if their vessel gets impounded and they get thrown in jail for driving without a license and tags, then they will not be able to continue doing God's will, because they will no longer have a vehicle to do that.

First of all, God does not require us to sin in one of his Laws (entering into a covenant with the heathen, and being unequally yoked with them) in order to exercise his will. If it's his will we do something, and we feel we must break one of his laws in order to do his will, then we better ask ourselves, "Is it really his will I am doing, or my own?"

Secondly, let me ask you a question. Can mere man thwart God's will? Of course not. If he can, that would mean man is sovereign over God, and God is helpless. So, knowing man cannot thwart God's will, one should not worry that man will prevent you from exercising God's will! If you fear that you won't be able to continue doing God's will if you lose your vessel, then you are saying man is more powerful than God! If man does prevent you from doing what you thought was God's will, then maybe that's God's way of telling you it was not his will in the first place, and he may be directing you to a different calling.

Some people are not willing to lose "their" vessel for the Lord's sake, but scripture does tell us that we will be persecuted for standing in the Truth (Matthew 5:10-12; 10:22; 24:9, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:17, John 15:20). We will be persecuted, but it's for his purposes. Besides, who is the One who has provided you with that vessel? Yourself or God? If you are living in the Truth, you know that God has. Therefore, what makes you think that he will not provide another vessel for you? It comes down to faith, or a lack of faith.

Remember what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:40, "And if any man (i.e. cops, attorneys, etc.) will sue thee at the law (i.e. arrested and brought before the judge for placing God's will above man's will), and take away thy coat (i.e. car, land), let him have thy cloke also."

Why does Jesus tell us to let our possessions go? Because those who want "their" things back would be coveting! And coveting may prevent one from having eternal life! Look at this question that was asked to Jesus by a wealthy man:

Matthew 19:16, "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

...continued...

 

[sojourner4Christ]

...continued...

Then Jesus repeated some of God's Commandments. The man said he had kept all of them. Then Jesus told the man he must be willing to give up his possessions also (verse 21).

Matthew 19:22, "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

That man refused to let go of his possessions, and he left Jesus! He could not be part of the Kingdom if he was not willing to let go of his possessions! Why? Because Christ's kingdom is spiritual, not physical. God will supply our physical needs (Matthew 6:31-33, Luke 12:22-31, Philippians 4:19, Psalms 34:10). That man had no faith that God would supply his needs, but he wanted to put that faith in his current possessions...just in case God didn't keep his promise to supply him with his needs. After all, he may have been thinking to himself, "Why put faith in God to supply my needs when I already have the things I need? Why should I risk losing them? I like my physical possessions." But when the rich man left, Jesus told his audience:

Matthew 19:23-24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Let this be a warning to those who are not willing to part with their possessions. For those who would rather covet "their" vessel and keep it, rather than risk losing it for righteousness’ sake, then you may want to think about this; Caesar and his swarms of officers can take "your" vessel away from you for any reason they want. Would you rather have protection from Caesar (which means you must forsake the Father), or would you rather have protection from Almighty God (by using him as a shield and obeying his Law)? He is truly a more powerful shield than Caesar and his codes, rules, and regulations.

If you do lose your possessions because of righteousness sake, we are not to have any animosity towards those who steal from us, but we are to forgive them:

Mark 11:26, "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

This is where the Peace of Christ comes in. No matter what man does to us, we will always have the assurance that God will take care of our needs.

Sojourn, do you feel it's a sin to get a passport or a drivers license? I don’t “feel” anything on that issue; my feelings/opinions are no better than anyone’s. Rather, what saith Scripture?

Or for that matter, is it a sin to cooperate with the present Governmental system or Caesar, as you call it, especially when we all know that system will pass away with the world shortly? No man can serve two masters. Which part of that do we not understand? Compromising with temporal powers can never lead to redemption. Touch not the unclean thing.

Just a thought but, wouldn't....

"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." People are largely ignorant of what the Holy Bible actually teaches on the subject of taxes, instead relying on the commandments of men. It's herd mentality rather than seeking God's Spirit and taking on the mind of Christ.

Stop for a moment and pray for discernment concerning what you are about to read here, whether it be wrought of God.

'Jesus paid taxes' is a popular myth taught throughout evangelical Christianity. In fact, Jesus himself was accused of forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar at his trial (Luke 23:2). Notice these were not false witnesses who accused Jesus of not paying taxes, because every time a false witness accused Jesus, the scripture tells us it was a false witness (Mark 14:57-59). Where did Jesus forbid to pay taxes to Caesar?

In Mark 12:13-17, Jesus was asked if it was lawful to give taxes to Caesar or not. A silver coin, with Caesar's inscription on it, was shown to Christ. In this example, the Lord's answer requires everyone to make the determination as to what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God;

Mark 12:17, "...Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's..."

Who did this silver coin belong to? Since the Scripture says, "The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts" (Haggai 2:8), that means that the silver coin shown to Jesus belonged to God. However, those who live, move, and have their being in the image of Caesar, as the disciples of the Pharisees did, will believe this coin belongs to Caesar instead. We are not to be deluded by the image of Caesar, but built-up in the image of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:7; 15:49, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Colossians 3:10).

......also, at least conceivably, cover yielding to government ways, like going ahead and getting that passport or drivers license...cooperating in general? Compromising with temporal powers can never lead to redemption. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2 Cor. 6:14-18).

We have to live in the world and to do so there has to be some form of order. And since we can't very well have a mainstream Christian AND worldly government, it seems to me, the one we have does a pretty good job of taking care of things....at least when we consider some things just have to be the way they are for now. Again, it looks like you’ve not only not responded scripturally to the scriptural imperatives I have been posting, but you have not even read them. Go back in the thread and read the scriptural explanation of why God allows ungodly authority to exist and let us know if you take issue with it.

The government may not be a perfect solution (or maybe it is, all considered, at least basically) .... neither is this part of our life, but we are destined due to original sin to live with it, at least for now so..... “Original sin” doctrine is a heresy. And are you not aware there is a form of obedience that leads to death? Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Rom. 6:16)

For myself, this is where it all started. Reading it was followed by an extremely prompt question in my mind...what actually belonged to Caesar? If heaven is the throne and earth is the footstool and all creation is for His purpose and good pleasure, then how can any single person born claim anything is actually theirs? I understand that we toss around language sometimes without thinking, but I don't presume to think God ever did. After all, even "my" children aren't mine, they belong to God. Amen!

I look at this way. [Caesar’s] Laws were made for the lawless and those who are not prudent or wise, 100% of the time. That would include Christians who are not wise 100% of the time. So they are a necessary evil for now. Rather, it is NEVER “necessary” for a man/woman of God to partake of or consent to evil!

...continued...

 

[sojourner4Christ]

...continued...

Any use of public roads is a use of government funds... as is any public utilities...Most people believe that "roads" belong to the government. They don't. Just because the government paves over a way common to all does not make it theirs. After all, if the government comes to your home and paves your dirt driveway, does that now mean the driveway belongs to the government? Of course not. And their own laws confirm that the "roads" belong to the people, not the government.

A "way" is a path common to all (Matthew 21:6-8). Thus, we use the term "common ways." The "world" uses terms such as "highways and byways, freeways, expressways, tollways, parkways, and driveways." These are terms to describe different kinds of ways, and sometimes their meanings are backwards. For example, the world says we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway. It should be the other way around; a driveway should be a way to drive on, and a parkway should be a way to park on. Anyway, by us using the term "common ways" instead, we are describing something that is common to all people, and at the same time, avoiding the words of the world.

In addition, I try to avoid terms such as "road, travel, drive, motor vehicle, automobile, car, etc.," as these can be construed to denote commercial activity, since they are commercial terms created for commercial law. To describe the mode of movement I use, I should use the terms of scripture, which would be "mule, vessel," etc., instead of "car, motor vehicle," etc. A vessel is a scriptural term which refers to a mode of movement, such as boats, our own bodies, and other things that are used to go from one place to another. In addition, instead of saying "I am driving this car," it is best to say "I am guiding this vessel."

And then there are all the local and state taxes.... on phone bills.... on the internet.... when one buys groceries, household goods, clothing ... there are state and federal taxes on gasoline..........If one desires the convenience of a drive-up service station gas pump, then one will pay the amount requested, taxes and all, or he will not receive the service. Such "transaction" is non-binding; it does not meet the definition of commercial activity.

Taxes are everywhere. The body of Christ is not made up of thieves; we pay for what we use.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Or for that matter, is it a sin to cooperate with the present Governmental system or Caesar, as you call it, especially when we all know that system will pass away with the world shortly? No man can serve two masters.

Grossly unfair to say one who cooperates with a the government is serving them as they would God. Also, since it is a sin to serve two masters, can I assume you have now answered the following question you evaded earlier with a "yes"?:

Sojourn, do you feel it's a sin to get a passport or a drivers license? I don’t “feel” anything on that issue; my feelings/opinions are no better than anyone’s. Rather, what saith Scripture?

Your getting even more evasive, you say you don't feel" anything on the issue but, I'd guess most Christians "Feel" the word of God is the truth so not sure what that means. Playing around with wording isn't going to help you much one way or the other here but these type reactions are telling.

And I'd bet you cooperate with the government in one form or another, correct?? If so, do you serve two masters to any degree at all or is that blame to go to those who cooperate a bit more than you?

 

[Kenny_ms]

Taxes are everywhere. The body of Christ is not made up of thieves; we pay for what we use.

Sorry, I missed that.

Then it is safe to say, when it comes to something you need or can't avoid, you do cooperate with the government, hence serve two masters, correct?

For example, the world says we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway.

You can't seriously have a problem with that? I mean you do drive into your driveway.....right?

A "way" is a path common to all (Matthew 21:6-8). Thus, we use the term "common ways." The "world" uses terms such as "highways and byways, freeways, expressways, tollways, parkways, and driveways." These are terms to describe different kinds of ways, and sometimes their meanings are backwards.

I'd better stop reading for tonight anyway.

 

[Obadiah]

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. I've been busy putting up firewood and hosting a home schooler's meeting.

My comments are in red text.

And with all that, you STILL didn't explain HOW you did it. I could have explained the details of my particular situation but, other than satisfying your curiosity, they aren’t that relevant at the moment, as the essential ingredient is the truth of Jesus Christ and him alone. There is more than one way to skin this cat, but they are ALL founded on the Truth. It might be a bit premature to start running when many are yet learning to walk. You said you can use other ID, which in rare cases between some countries is true, but you didn't say what ID you used since you reject using most or all of the forms of ID that would be accepted. I don’t "reject" Caesarian ID’s; the word of God does. And I don’t ever use the abbreviation ID in speaking. Rather than using the words of the world to describe us, we should use the words of Christ to define us. I have more knowledge of how these things work than the average person and I can say without any doubt that a lot of what you are talking about here simply will not work. It does “work,” and it has worked, for me, and for my family. If you or anyone else were to actually do these things you would get into a lot of trouble very quickly. Initially, the police power often does wonder why my family and I do not react in fear, as virtually all their other contacts do. It’s an excellent door opener to witness, while also declaring the Law. Walk circumspectly; maintain the demeanor of an ambassador, as Christ so commands his people. Seriously, you expect me to believe you get away with these things by claiming diplomatic immunity as an "ambassador of Christ"??? I don't think so! Your belief is entirely yours. I “expect” no-thing of you, and I’m not here to convince you of anything. Rather, what saith scripture?

When a man professes to be a follower and ambassador of Christ and yet acts in a manner that tells the whole world that he is a pagan, then he is bearing false witness to the whole world. Can the officer be blamed for writing his traffic ticket in such a case? Obviously not! These Christians honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from him (Isaiah 29:13, Matthew 15:8, Mark 7:6).

On the other hand, if you act in the mode and character of a true bondman and ambassador of the Christ, there are alternatives to State licensure. And all presumptions are rebuttable. Your activity cannot be of a commercial nature, but limited to only one purpose; ministering for the Lord. This does not mean that you must be a minister "ordained" by men. It means that you live, move, and have your being in Christ; it means you are not doing your own will, but the will of the Father.

There are no gray areas. It’s either, "render unto Caesar" or "render unto God" (Luke 20:25). There are no guarantees or silver bullets available when dealing with Caesar, but there is the Promise of Christ, the Higher Power, for "with men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37; 18:27). The shield of faith must be carried at all times. It is not a matter of "getting away with it," it is a matter of honoring the Father first and standing on the Word of God and bringing his truth to them, no matter what the consequences.

I sure hope no one reading this is influenced to try any of this. As I’ve stated, it might be a bit premature to start running when many are yet learning to walk. First we lay the scriptural groundwork, then we can talk practicalities, the mechanics.

...if you are even able to successfully connect to one of their “wizards.”...

I pretty much suspected you would either sidestep or refuse to answer my questions much like you did. That's OK, I didn't think you would have a logical answer because I've dealt with this before and have never ran into anyone who had logical, legal, workable answers to these kind of questions. Just know that I did see through the smokescreen you threw up to notice you aren't going to answer.

You also have no cause to belittle myself and our members here by telling us we aren't capable of understanding, saying it is "a bit premature to start running when many are yet learning to walk."

 

[sojourner4Christ]

I pretty much suspected you would either sidestep or refuse to answer my questions much like you did.

We haven’t reached that bridge yet. Proverbs 18:13, "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."

That's OK, I didn't think you would have a logical answer because I've dealt with this before and have never ran into anyone who had logical, legal, workable answers to these kind of questions.

The sum of your experiences would presume. I must be like all the others you’ve “dealt with.”

Just know that I did see through the smokescreen you threw up to notice you aren't going to answer.

Again, you presume -- as if you can bully me into appeasing you.

You also have no cause to belittle myself and our members here by telling us we aren't capable of understanding, saying it is "a bit premature to start running when many are yet learning to walk."

There’s nothing negative about my statement, and you know it. Spinning it around won’t change the fact that yours is an attack.

Numbers 15:30, "But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people."

Deuteronomy 17:13, "And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously."

Psalms 19:13, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression."

Presumptions or accusations are based on natural reason (unless it's an unrebuttable presumption where, in fact, you have committed evil, and there's a witness). (But we're confronted with rebuttable presumptions every day and we probably don't know it because we're trained to answer. We've already been conditioned with a response.)

Presumptions are something that the natural man has created. The natural man comes up with a presumption and they cast a burden on you to prove otherwise.

Another, more typical example, of a presumptuous question would be something like, "Have you beaten your wife lately?" Either a "yes" or "no" answer is bad. This question "presumes" you have beaten your wife already. If you answer "yes," you admit guilt. If you answer "No," you still admit to having beat your wife, just not lately. Their presumptuous questions steer your mind to the answers they want. In scripture, you don't find where God asks a leading question or makes a presumptuous statement.

Kenny_ms, the key is in understanding what constitutes commercial activity (Caesar's kingdom) and then not engaging in it.

The way out of the commercial world is to shed all the things of the world. For example, Matthew was a 'tax collector' of receipts and customs. So he had a legal personality with the Roman Government. But when Christ said, "come follow me", Matthew just got up and walked right out. He left the Roman personality at the table, and became a new man in Christ Jesus.

Peter was a fisherman, a commercial type probably because he had nets. He left all that behind and he became a fisher of men. He left behind that commercial fisherman, that legal personality, and walked out of the city and into the light of Jesus Christ. When you walk out of the city, the city is at your back and Christ is in front of you.

This is what Lot did when he left Sodom and Gomorrah, he didn't look back, he kept going. His wife looked back, "Oh, I love the things of the world. Lot, can't we go back? Please?!" And she did go back. She became a pillar of salt and became a commodity (salt was a commodity to pay salaries). You leave or you die; also, it leaves you or you die. You can physically walk out, but you must spiritually walk out too. It takes both of them. His wife wasn't willing to spiritually walk out; she was of that city, but Lot was not.

That's how you get out of the house of bondage, out of Babylon, how you leave the whore. That's how you leave all that legal personality behind you. You don't need the ways of men. Revelation 18:4, "...Come out of her, my people." But the Churches teach that all this is future, so we don't have to worry about those things right now. All we have to do is sit down and wait for Christ. Most Churches will blame and point to the Catholic Church, while they have three fingers pointing at themselves.

In the 47th chapter of Isaiah, Israel and Jerusalem are described as the daughter of the Chaldeans. This is directly related to the fact that Chaldea was a nation that skillfully employed the techniques of merchants of debt to weaken a nation before it was conquered by the army. Thus, the Chaldeans would go into a country and offer loans at low interest with special conditions which virtually guaranteed that the debtor would never pay off the debt. As this practice spread throughout a nation, it so burdened the middle class that it ceased to exist and hence, the country was ripe for take-over. But, as shown in verse 15, when the conquest comes, even the merchants of debt will abandon the nation. Any of this sound familiar?

James 4:13-14, "Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

For this reason, when we all stepped into commerce, we all compromised our traditionally vested rights. You only have two absolute 'unalienable rights': Life and Liberty. Everything else is conditioned on your conduct and consent. Your life and liberty are vested by God in Genesis 2:7. Dominion over property is conditional, this being the lesson of Adam in the garden.

Unalienable: "Incapable of being transferred. Things which are not in commerce as, public roads, are in their nature unalienable. The natural rights of life and liberty are unalienable." Bouvier's Law Dictionary (1914), page 3350.

Unalienable: The state of a thing or right which cannot be sold. Things which are not in commerce as, public roads, are in their nature unalienable. The natural rights of life and liberty are unalienable." Bouvier's Law Dictionary (1959), Vol.2, p.610.

You don't have unalienable rights in commerce, because everything is negotiable. "Every man has his price" is the mantra. This is simply because neither you, nor your neighbor, have a right vested by God to lie, cheat, steal, or financially profit (Exodus 20:15-17). Traditionally vested rights which are retained by born again believers should never be compromised by entering into commerce. Labeling oneself a 'persona' is when you say you are an article in commerce.

Playing around with wording isn't going to help you much one way or the other here but these type reactions are telling.

Rather, take heed of God's warning:

2 Peter 2:3, "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you."

 

[Obadiah]

LOL. Nice try.

 

[Kenny_ms]

You never answered my question. I'll repeat it in case you missed it and won't ask again in case you chose not to or couldn't answer.

Taxes are everywhere. The body of Christ is not made up of thieves; we pay for what we use.

Then it is safe to say, when it comes to something you need or can't avoid, you do cooperate with the government, hence serve two masters, correct? To be clear, you more than indicated that with this answer to a question I asked earlier:

Or for that matter, is it a sin to cooperate with the present Governmental system or Caesar, as you call it, especially when we all know that system will pass away with the world shortly? No man can serve two masters.

If that is correct, do you think it's a sin for you to serve 2 masters, just as it would be for other folk?


Kenny_ms, the key is in understanding what constitutes commercial activity (Caesar's kingdom) and then not engaging in it.

The way out of the commercial world is to shed all the things of the world. For example, Matthew was a 'tax collector' of receipts and customs. So he had a legal personality with the Roman Government. But when Christ said, "come follow me", Matthew just got up and walked right out. He left the Roman personality at the table, and became a new man in Christ Jesus.

Jesus was a Carpenter...any reason to believe he didn't sell his work? What disciple was a tent maker? They both knew we can only shed so much of the world and that they had to live in the world for now so they chose to work for a living in the world but you seem to be saying that's not cool?.

Peter was a fisherman, a commercial type probably because he had nets. He left all that behind and he became a fisher of men. He left behind that commercial fisherman, that legal personality, and walked out of the city and into the light of Jesus Christ. When you walk out of the city, the city is at your back and Christ is in front of you.

Fine, are you saying everyone should walk out or that if a Christian decided to stay in that city and take peters place as a fisherman, he did a bad thing? I'm just not sure of your point there? Are you saying Christ should be more important than a city? If so, of course he should...goes without saying for most Christians, I think it does anyway.

This is what Lot did when he left Sodom and Gomorrah, he didn't look back, he kept going. His wife looked back, "Oh, I love the things of the world. Lot, can't we go back? Please?!" And she did go back. She became a pillar of salt and became a commodity (salt was a commodity to pay salaries). You leave or you die; also, it leaves you or you die. You can physically walk out, but you must spiritually walk out too. It takes both of them. His wife wasn't willing to spiritually walk out; she was of that city, but Lot was not.

God Chose to judge Sodom and Gomorrah as being evil enough to destroy. Have you taken it upon yourself to judge any city as a Sodom/Gomorrah or evil enough that we should leave it? or does that include all cities for you? If not all, what cities have you judged to be unworthy and cities we should walk away from? It's true, many leave some cities by choice and decide to stay away or live away and work there because they can find work no where else, but it's their own choice.

I'll read the rest of your post later and may comment some more, but in the meantime, I'll look forward to the answers to my questions and I appreciate your time in doing so.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

.

Taxes are everywhere. The body of Christ is not made up of thieves; we pay for what we use.

Then it is safe to say, when it comes to something you need or can't avoid, you do cooperate with the government, hence serve two masters if they take part in the Government, correct?

Not correct. I do not “take part in the Government.”

And, “when it comes to something I "need or can't avoid,” I pray about it, because the Father already knows what I need, and he will supply it. Rather, it’s those “wants” of ours that get us into trouble.

No man can serve two masters.

do you think it's a sin for you to serve 2 masters, just as it would be for other folk?

The Lord says it cannot be done; it’s scripture.

If Jesus were to do his same ministry on earth over again today, he would be wanted by...

...the FDA for turning water into wine without a license
...the EPA for killing fig tree
...the AMA for practicing medicine without a license
...the DEPT of HEALTH for asking people to open graves, for raising the dead, and feeding 5,000 people in the wilderness
...the NEA for teaching without a certificate
...OSHA for walking on water without a life-jacket and for flying without an airplane
...the SPCA for driving hogs into the sea
...the NATIONAL BOARD of PSYCHIATRISTS for giving advice on how to live a guilt-free life
...the NOW for not choosing a woman apostle
...the ABORTION RIGHTS LEAGUE for saying that whoever harms children, it is better that they had never been born
...the INTER-FAITH MOVEMENT for condemning all other religions
...and by the ZONING DEPT for building mansions without a permit
...Jesus would be wanted by the BATF for ordering his disciples to carry arms.
...He would be wanted for sedition by the FBI for promoting the Kingdom of God.
...He would be sued by the ACLU for teaching religion in public places.
...He would be charged with HATE CRIMES for threats against lawyers, religious leaders, and public officials.
...He would be targeted as a homophobe by GLAAD and ACT-UP for his stance on homosexuals.
...He would be cited by the NATIONAL PARK FISH AND WILDLIFE DEPT. for exceeding the daily fishing limit.
...He would be condemned by PETA for cruelty to animals for drowning 2,000 pigs and riding into town on a donkey.
...He would be wanted by the Feds for driving the money changers out of the temple
...He would be branded as a Terrorist Cult Leader by Janet Reno and the DOJ for predicting the tearing down of the temple.

...any reason to believe he didn't sell his work?

There is no reason to believe he did, otherwise you would have posted the relevant scripture. But again, that’s not the point. Buying and selling is not necessarily contrary to scripture. It's how one goes about it. Commercial activity, by definition, involves profiteering, the profit motive, and that goes to one’s wants (not his needs) and that is Caesar’s kingdom.

Jesus was a Carpenter...

Some used that Title -- and, they did not capitalize it like you did. Regardless, did Jesus ever call himself a carpenter? Obviously not. He could probably do the work of one, but he wasn’t that thing.

Pursuing your godly calling is working and operating for the Glory of God, wherein all obey the Law of God. The talents and gifts that God has given you can only be used to that end. This is love. Scripture does not use the terms "employee" or "employer," because these are created terms of the world. Scripture uses the terms "workman" (Matthew 10:10, 2 Timothy 2:15) and "labourer (Luke 10:7, 1 Timothy 5:18). The term "workman" does not appear in man's codes, rules, and regulations, and therefore, one is not regulatable if one claims to be labouring as a workman.

When somebody asks, "Are you a carpenter?", or "Are you a painter?", you respond, "No, I am not." You can do the work of one, but you’re not that thing. It’s something you can do, but it’s not who you are. You can work as a carpenter, or as a painter from time to time. To avoid placing yourself in Caesar's jurisdiction, it's important that you say you work "as" so and so, and only "from time to time," to avoid giving the impression you have a "job."

Jesus, our example, never answered to those commercial designations. For example, the Jews did ask Jesus, "Is not this the carpenter?" (Mark 6:3), but notice Jesus did not answer to that fictitious title, he did not give life to it. The Jews also asked, "Is not this the carpenter's son?" (Matthew 13:55), but, again, Jesus ignored their man-made label, he avoided their fiction, and stayed in the Truth. He did not engage in the words of the world, but the word's of God.

What disciple was a tent maker? They both knew we can only shed so much of the world and that they had to live in the world for now so they chose to work for a living in the world but you seem to be saying that's not cool?

Rather, they left that world, just like I have.

Fine, are you saying everyone should walk out or that if a Christian decided to stay in that city and take peters place as a fisherman, he did a bad thing?

Again, the key is commerce. If you’re engaging in commerce, then you will come under the jurisdiction of the god of commerce, Mercury i.e. Caesar.

God Chose to judge Sodom and Gomorrah as being evil enough to destroy. Have you taken it upon yourself to judge any city as a Sodom/Gomorrah or evil enough that we should leave it? or does that include all cities for you? If not all, what cities have you judged to be unworthy and cities we should walk away from?

No one has judged anyone. But make no mistake, God is going to judge USA Inc. It’s already underway. If you want specifics, don’t trust any man but talk to the King himself.

I posted the scriptural imperatives and the documentation. Or do you like jack booted gov’t thugs banging down your castle door to haul you and your family off to “indefinite detention” and worse? Do you like, as per the OP, the “disconnect” between the police power and its citizens?

I'll look forward to the answers to my questions and I appreciate your time in doing so.

Thanks for the opportunity to respond.
.

 

[jasonc]

dude, your trolling, seriously, double speak galore.

...continued...

Any use of public roads is a use of government funds... as is any public utilities...Most people believe that "roads" belong to the government. They don't. Just because the government paves over a way common to all does not make it theirs. After all, if the government comes to your home and paves your dirt driveway, does that now mean the driveway belongs to the government? Of course not. And their own laws confirm that the "roads" belong to the people, not the government.

A "way" is a path common to all (Matthew 21:6-8). Thus, we use the term "common ways." The "world" uses terms such as "highways and byways, freeways, expressways, tollways, parkways, and driveways." These are terms to describe different kinds of ways, and sometimes their meanings are backwards. For example, the world says we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway. It should be the other way around; a driveway should be a way to drive on, and a parkway should be a way to park on. Anyway, by us using the term "common ways" instead, we are describing something that is common to all people, and at the same time, avoiding the words of the world.

In addition, I try to avoid terms such as "road, travel, drive, motor vehicle, automobile, car, etc.," as these can be construed to denote commercial activity, since they are commercial terms created for commercial law. To describe the mode of movement I use, I should use the terms of scripture, which would be "mule, vessel," etc., instead of "car, motor vehicle," etc. A vessel is a scriptural term which refers to a mode of movement, such as boats, our own bodies, and other things that are used to go from one place to another. In addition, instead of saying "I am driving this car," it is best to say "I am guiding this vessel."

And then there are all the local and state taxes.... on phone bills.... on the internet.... when one buys groceries, household goods, clothing ... there are state and federal taxes on gasoline..........If one desires the convenience of a drive-up service station gas pump, then one will pay the amount requested, taxes and all, or he will not receive the service. Such "transaction" is non-binding; it does not meet the definition of commercial activity.

Taxes are everywhere. The body of Christ is not made up of thieves; we pay for what we use.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

dude, your trolling, seriously, double speak galore.

lol I know it's a bit weird when illusion comes to dominate reality, but the roads really do belong to the people. Check it yourself by clicking on the link. Scroll down to the 10th word, "unalienable' --> Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1856

Two other Law Dictionary ref's follow below (1914 & 1959).

When we all stepped into commerce, we all compromised our traditionally vested rights. You only have two absolute 'unalienable rights': Life and Liberty. Everything else is conditioned on your conduct and consent. Your life and liberty are vested by God in Genesis 2:7. Dominion over property is conditional, this being the lesson of Adam in the garden.

Unalienable: "Incapable of being transferred. Things which are not in commerce as, public roads, are in their nature unalienable. The natural rights of life and liberty are unalienable." Bouvier's Law Dictionary (1914), page 3350.

Unalienable: The state of a thing or right which cannot be sold. Things which are not in commerce as, public roads, are in their nature unalienable. The natural rights of life and liberty are unalienable." Bouvier's Law Dictionary (1959), Vol.2, p.610.

You don't have unalienable rights in commerce, because everything is negotiable. "Every man has his price" is the mantra. This is simply because neither you, nor your neighbor, have a right vested by God to lie, cheat, steal, or financially profit (Exodus 20:15-17). Traditionally vested rights which are retained by born again believers should never be compromised by entering into commerce. Labeling oneself a 'persona' is when you say you are an article in commerce.