The Pope and Doctrine

[GodsGrace]

Sparrowhawke

Hi,,
You just gave me a like for the post about the Pope's new encyclical and I had forgotten to fix what I wrote.

In February an encyclical is coming out written by Pope Francis.
I said "allowing priests to marry"....NO! I meant that this is being considered and it MIGHT declare this, and perhaps not.

We'll have to wait to find out...but he is in favor of this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Does he, I didn't know that.



I don't have a strong opinion on this. My first thought is one of forgiveness. God forgives everyone for any sin as long as they repent from the heart. Maybe it applies here too, though I haven't given it much thought.

This Pope agrees with you...he's very pastoral.
The problem, in a nutshell, with remarrieds is that divorce is not allowed except in very strict cases where an annulment is declared.
When one divorces and remarries, in effect, they are living in adultery.

Can a person living in adultery receive Communion?

Again this isn't something I have pondered. My first thought is that it would decrease the cases for sexual harassment/assault and give them a more practical position of experience to teach from i guess.

But if the Pope does take an oath not to change any former dogma or doctrine then he's wrong to do so.

This is a complicated subject and one I don't feel able to address. Why would a priest assault anyone? Enough of them have affairs...why not just have an affair?

As to priests getting married...this is not a dogma or doctrine that cannot be changed... It's called a discipline and these are allowed to change. Priests were married in the early church...this practice was changed and forbid them to marry in about the 12th century.
Before that there were rules and decrees but they were many times broken because they were not official in declaration. it became canon law in the 12th century.



I don't think God is any denomination, I believe he is with several. I do think God is still with the RCC because of the ability priests have to perform exorcisms.
Jesus gave his apostles the ability to drive out demons and still today the RCC is the highest authority on the subject and perform many more exorcisms than anyone else.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Sparkey]

... In February an encyclical is coming out ...

I said "allowing priests to marry"....NO! I meant that this is being considered and it MIGHT declare this ...

:nod /Thx
(for the retraction, correction & update)

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no historical fact for the Pope. Nothing in scripture gives a single human being rule over Jesus Christ's Church. Jesus said he will send the Spirit, not the Pope. The scripture is the Word, not a human being.

As for the Pope I have nothing against him, he is just a human being like me in need of God's grace and mercy. I just don't look at him as higher status or greater than anyone else.

Does everything that happened AFTER Jesus ascended have to be in the bible?

Does the bible speak of the death of Peter and Paul?
Was there no history after the N.T.?
Did the world just stop spinning?

Perhaps you could widen your horizons and learn some church history? It did happen Kiwidan...whether you believe it or not.

The history of the Pope is correct history.
Whether anyone likes it or not...it is still history.

If God did not want the Pope,,,why do we have one?
Is God not able to do what He wills to have done?

Anyway, I'm not here to protect him.
I just have a difficult time understanding the animosity when we're all Christian serving the same Jesus.

P.S. and for those new here that may not know me...I AM protestant.

 

[JohnDB]

There is no historical fact for the Pope. Nothing in scripture gives a single human being rule over Jesus Christ's Church. Jesus said he will send the Spirit, not the Pope. The scripture is the Word, not a human being.

As for the Pope I have nothing against him, he is just a human being like me in need of God's grace and mercy. I just don't look at him as higher status or greater than anyone else.

Whether people should have faith in this Pope or any other is not being scrutinized...and it isn't relevant to the discussion. It's a doctrinal issue of their denomination that we don't share.
There are billions of people who do listen to the Pope.
And what he says and does affects those billions of people. It's important to them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Whether people should have faith in this Pope or any other is not being scrutinized...and it isn't relevant to the discussion. It's a doctrinal issue of their denomination that we don't share.
There are billions of people who do listen to the Pope.
And what he says and does affects those billions of people. It's important to them.

I agree.
I do want to add that he does have some power over leaders of other countries...they visit him,,,they talk,,,it may have an effect, it may not.
Some country leaders looked up to Billy Graham for advice...I think it's the same only on a wider scale.

Some persons do love the Pope too much -- is this the same as our being called to love everyone? Maybe not...maybe this goes to HEARING HM instead of hearing Jesus? Only they could know this.
I do know that Catholics tend to talk a lot about the church and the Pope and not enough about Jesus and the words in the bible.

I brought up the discussion of doctrine because this Pope does seem to be more Protestant in nature than the others. I was wondering if others felt like this but we may not have enough Catholics here for this discussion.

No problem.

 

[JohnDB]

I agree.
I do want to add that he does have some power over leaders of other countries...they visit him,,,they talk,,,it may have an effect, it may not.
Some country leaders looked up to Billy Graham for advice...I think it's the same only on a wider scale.

Some persons do love the Pope too much -- is this the same as our being called to love everyone? Maybe not...maybe this goes to HEARING HM instead of hearing Jesus? Only they could know this.
I do know that Catholics tend to talk a lot about the church and the Pope and not enough about Jesus and the words in the bible.

I brought up the discussion of doctrine because this Pope does seem to be more Protestant in nature than the others. I was wondering if others felt like this but we may not have enough Catholics here for this discussion.

No problem.

It's a very narrow path.
It's similar when Peter became confused between Jewish custom and permissable Gentile behavior. Paul had to straighten him out because everyone was watching him and it was affecting everyone's ministry.

I'm sure that Peter didn't make everyone happy either.
I'm sure that people questioned Jesus' choice in Peter more than once...on a host of reasons.
Whether people choose to remain Catholic or not is a good question they will have to answer for themselves. Will it turn people away from the faith altogether? I don't know the answer to that either. If it does will the Protestant church be ready?

 

[Christ the King]

I do think God is still with the RCC because of the ability priests have to perform exorcisms.
Jesus gave his apostles the ability to drive out demons and still today the RCC is the highest authority on the subject and perform many more exorcisms than anyone else.

Thanks I nearly always get negative responses when I mention that.

Seeing u know a fair bit more than me i'll ask u this.
The RCC says something like it's teachings are guided by the Holy Spirit.
Are there any teachings that you can prove to be false?

 

[GodsGrace]

It's a very narrow path.
It's similar when Peter became confused between Jewish custom and permissable Gentile behavior. Paul had to straighten him out because everyone was watching him and it was affecting everyone's ministry.

I'm sure that Peter didn't make everyone happy either.
I'm sure that people questioned Jesus' choice in Peter more than once...on a host of reasons.
Whether people choose to remain Catholic or not is a good question they will have to answer for themselves. Will it turn people away from the faith altogether? I don't know the answer to that either. If it does will the Protestant church be ready?

It seems to me that every church is changing.
I believe Pope Benedict had to resign because he couldn't agree to the changes that had to be made and he realized that things had to change and so he just left.

I always thought it was ironic that Paul had to straighten out Peter.
Peter spent over 3 years with Jesus and learned from Him directly.
Paul was a Pharisee and a legalist to the point of wanting to kill the new sect. Strange how things work out. I think this was a turning point in the new religion...one did not have to become a Jew first in order to become a Christian...I do believe it would have been an impediment.

As to the other statement...some Protestants become Catholic and some Catholics become Protestant. Catholicism would have been great if it had just remained as it was in the beginning without all the changes that came throughout the centuries. It's like they couldn't leave a good thing alone. Some call this progressive revelation. Progressive revelation that necessitated the Reformation....!

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks I nearly always get negative responses when I mention that.

Seeing u know a fair bit more than me i'll ask u this.
The RCC says something like it's teachings are guided by the Holy Spirit.
Are there any teachings that you can prove to be false?

Sure. Everything, it seems, is guided by the Holy Spirit...but do we listen?

There are many teachings in the CC that are not scriptural,,,
If you study their doctrine, you'll find that they have scriptural support for everything they state is a doctrine. But are the verses they use truly how they understand them to be?

A great example is the doctrine of purgatory....
1 Corinthians 3:5.....and check out verse 15,,,
is this truly speaking of purgatory?
Even a theologically expert priest I know says purgatory is nowhere in the bible. Besides the fact that it diminishes the sacrifice of Christ.

What about confession?
Both purgatory and confession took hundreds of years to be developed...why; if it's biblical??

I believe indulgences are an affront to God. How can a Pope declare that an indulgence will shorten time in purgatory....how can he know this?

Being out of grace with God is a problem.
In this system,,,one could be saved one day and lost the next day and saved the next day and etc etc......

Salvation through sacraments.
I think the sacraments are beautiful....
but we could be saved without them...they didn't even come about till, I believe, the 1500's at the Council of Trent.

There's more.
Do YOU have any thoughts on this?

 

[humble soul]

macabees 2 re purgatory?
just a feint bell rings in my head from bible study 3 years ago. not that this book is recognized by Prots. anyway.

 

[Christ the King]

Sure. Everything, it seems, is guided by the Holy Spirit...but do we listen?

There are many teachings in the CC that are not scriptural,,,
If you study their doctrine, you'll find that they have scriptural support for everything they state is a doctrine. But are the verses they use truly how they understand them to be?

A great example is the doctrine of purgatory....
1 Corinthians 3:5.....and check out verse 15,,,
is this truly speaking of purgatory?
Even a theologically expert priest I know says purgatory is nowhere in the bible. Besides the fact that it diminishes the sacrifice of Christ.

What about confession?
Both purgatory and confession took hundreds of years to be developed...why; if it's biblical??

I believe indulgences are an affront to God. How can a Pope declare that an indulgence will shorten time in purgatory....how can he know this?

Being out of grace with God is a problem.
In this system,,,one could be saved one day and lost the next day and saved the next day and etc etc......

Salvation through sacraments.
I think the sacraments are beautiful....
but we could be saved without them...they didn't even come about till, I believe, the 1500's at the Council of Trent.

There's more.
Do YOU have any thoughts on this?

I should have been more clear when i said "prove to be false".
Not found in scripture doesn't prove it's false.
The Catechism covers many things that aren't in the bible.

Take purgatory for example. Not being in the bible casts doubt on it. But proving it is false would require the bible to say there is no purgatory. See the difference. The bible doesn't tell us it's true but it doesn't tell us it's not true either. There's no contradiction.

There is a strong case against perpetual virginity. Scripture tells us Jesus had siblings and we are told that Joseph and Mary didn't consecrated their marriage until Jesus was born. The Catholic responses to these are weak but it does cast some doubt over the evidence being conclusive.

How can a Pope declare that an indulgence will shorten time in purgatory....how can he know this?

How? Through the Holy Spirit is the response I was getting.
That's why the RCC claim their teachings don't need to be from scripture.

The doctrines that I think are in direct contradiction to scripture are Mary mediatrix and Mary co-redemptrix. The NT clearly tells us that only Jesus is our mediator and only Jesus can redeem us, John's gospel is all about this.

The only type of responses I got for these were hostile accusations of disrespecting Mary. One forum even banned me.

So there are RCC teachings that aren't supported by scripture but do u know of any more that have conclusive proof against them?

 

[GodsGrace]

macabees 2 re purgatory?
just a feint bell rings in my head from bible study 3 years ago. not that this book is recognized by Prots. anyway.

Yes, like I said, they do base their doctrine on the bible. The question is: Is this supported by other verses and in the N.T.?
One or two verses does not a doctrine make....

They will also use Revelation 21:27

But the fact remains that if this were true,,,Jesus' sacrifice would be of little effect.

However, I would not argue this in a Catholic bible study,,,which I also attend BTW, with a very knowledgeable Monk --- they have a lot of time to read and study!

It's interesting that for some doctrine they'll go all the way back to about 400 years before Jesus was born....and for other doctrine it takes hundreds of years....

This is not something I would debate...it has nothing to do with salvation...let each church believe what it will.

 

[GodsGrace]

I should have been more clear when i said "prove to be false".
Not found in scripture doesn't prove it's false.
The Catechism covers many things that aren't in the bible.

Take purgatory for example. Not being in the bible casts doubt on it. But proving it is false would require the bible to say there is no purgatory. See the difference. The bible doesn't tell us it's true but it doesn't tell us it's not true either. There's no contradiction.

There is a strong case against perpetual virginity. Scripture tells us Jesus had siblings and we are told that Joseph and Mary didn't consecrated their marriage until Jesus was born. The Catholic responses to these are weak but it does cast some doubt over the evidence being conclusive.



How? Through the Holy Spirit is the response I was getting.
That's why the RCC claim their teachings don't need to be from scripture.

The doctrines that I think are in direct contradiction to scripture are Mary mediatrix and Mary co-redemptrix. The NT clearly tells us that only Jesus is our mediator and only Jesus can redeem us, John's gospel is all about this.

The only type of responses I got for these were hostile accusations of disrespecting Mary. One forum even banned me.

So there are RCC teachings that aren't supported by scripture but do u know of any more that have conclusive proof against them?

I did say that the CC basis its beliefs on the bible.
The CCC has footnotes and many of them are from scripture.

As to Mary,,,yes, calling her co-redemptrix; however one wants to understand the word "co" and there are two different ways. it is still not correct. I think the veneration of Mary...which I feel is fine...has gone beyond the line and into worship. This Pope does have the right idea about this..I think it's you that stated he called it nonsense...if it wasn't you, then I'LL say it because he did state this.

That church will say that some doctrine is from scripture and some is from oral Tradition.

Conclusive proof?
All the Mariology Dogma.
The Assumption.

How did they come up with this?
Because Mary was born immaculate so the reasoning is that her body could not be made to deocompose. (1954)

The Immaculate Conception.

Since Mary was to be the Mother of God, she had to have been born free of Original Sin. (1860's?)
Which brings up a nice problem.... Does this mean that God knew she would say yes and prepared her for her role as Mother of Jesus? Does God then ACT beforehand because He foreknows something? Was Gabriel ASKING Mary to bear Jesus, or was he TELLIING her she would be? Luke 1:31, 35

What about some of the Sacraments?
I just looked up the Annointing of the Sick in my CCC and I get the following verses:
James 5:14-16
Romans 8:17
Col 1:24
2 Tim 2:11-12
1 Peter 4:13

That's a mouthful !
But should it be a sacrament?

And so it goes.

I don't know how to prove a negative.
Some of what they teach seems wrong to me.
Confession took hundreds of years to develop. Why?
Why didn't the Early Church Fathers mention this?

I do say that every denomination should teach what they deem to be correct. There are also Protestant denominations that, IMO, teach wrong doctrine...we're all in the same boat though...
Jesus is the Captain .

 

[Christ the King]

I did say that the CC basis its beliefs on the bible.
The CCC has footnotes and many of them are from scripture.

As to Mary,,,yes, calling her co-redemptrix; however one wants to understand the word "co" and there are two different ways. it is still not correct. I think the veneration of Mary...which I feel is fine...has gone beyond the line and into worship. This Pope does have the right idea about this..I think it's you that stated he called it nonsense...if it wasn't you, then I'LL say it because he did state this.

That church will say that some doctrine is from scripture and some is from oral Tradition.

Conclusive proof?
All the Mariology Dogma.
The Assumption.

How did they come up with this?
Because Mary was born immaculate so the reasoning is that her body could not be made to deocompose. (1954)

The Immaculate Conception.

Since Mary was to be the Mother of God, she had to have been born free of Original Sin. (1860's?)
Which brings up a nice problem.... Does this mean that God knew she would say yes and prepared her for her role as Mother of Jesus? Does God then ACT beforehand because He foreknows something? Was Gabriel ASKING Mary to bear Jesus, or was he TELLIING her she would be? Luke 1:31, 35

What about some of the Sacraments?
I just looked up the Annointing of the Sick in my CCC and I get the following verses:
James 5:14-16
Romans 8:17
Col 1:24
2 Tim 2:11-12
1 Peter 4:13

That's a mouthful !
But should it be a sacrament?

And so it goes.

I don't know how to prove a negative.
Some of what they teach seems wrong to me.
Confession took hundreds of years to develop. Why?
Why didn't the Early Church Fathers mention this?

I do say that every denomination should teach what they deem to be correct. There are also Protestant denominations that, IMO, teach wrong doctrine...we're all in the same boat though...
Jesus is the Captain .

Anyway there isn't much I can do now. Trying to find another church just seems like such a headache with countless denominations and I doubt there will be one that is perfect anyway.
I think im better off just staying put and worshiping God in the RCC

 

[Margo75]

I am a former RCC and I left the Church as there were so many things I could not and still do not accept .. we are not to add to, delete from, or change God's Holy Spirit inspired Word and Truth and that includes Pope Francis .. Mary is the Blessed Mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and she is honoured as such but is in no way to be adored or worshiped as such belongs to God alone .. Jesus is our Advocate and Intercessor with the Father .. Mary is not to be either .. when Jesus commissioned the apostles to preach His gospel throughout the world, He meant for them to make His message "catholic as in universal", not Roman or Greek Catholic .. according to the prediction of St. Malachi, Pope Francis will be the last Pope and the one who will be alive through the Great Tribulation as "defender" or "defector" .. I believe he will be the "defector" and "false prophet" with Antichrist in the final One World Order .. we are in end times and the RCC and its members need to make some drastic "salvation" changes .. one problem is Nostra Aetate by Pope Paul VI in 1965 that has been upheld by all Popes since .. Pope John XXIII's Vatican II attempt at Ecumenism went astray and awry and is syncretism .. check it out ..

 

[GodsGrace]

Anyway there isn't much I can do now. Trying to find another church just seems like such a headache with countless denominations and I doubt there will be one that is perfect anyway.
I think im better off just staying put and worshiping God in the RCC

That's fine. There's a lot of good in the CC.
Just concentrate on that and don't bother with the bothersome details.

God is everywhere and can be worshipped everywhere.
We'll know all the truths at the end of our life.
We must amuse God at times, I think...

As to the perfect church...
A pastor once said: (that I knew)
There's no such thing as the perfect church...
and even if there were, it would stop being perfect the moment YOU stepped into it!

He said with a smile...
He was a good pastor.

 

[humble soul]

That's fine. There's a lot of good in the CC.
Just concentrate on that and don't bother with the bothersome details.

God is everywhere and can be worshipped everywhere.
We'll know all the truths at the end of our life.
We must amuse God at times, I think...

As to the perfect church...
A pastor once said: (that I knew)
There's no such thing as the perfect church...
and even if there were, it would stop being perfect the moment YOU stepped into it!

He said with a smile...
He was a good pastor.

the best most enthusiastic priest i have ever experienced turned out to have a double life. he committed suicide when the scandal was first exposed.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am a former RCC and I left the Church as there were so many things I could not and still do not accept .. we are not to add to, delete from, or change God's Holy Spirit inspired Word and Truth and that includes Pope Francis .. Mary is the Blessed Mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and she is honoured as such but is in no way to be adored or worshiped as such belongs to God alone .. Jesus is our Advocate and Intercessor with the Father .. Mary is not to be either .. when Jesus commissioned the apostles to preach His gospel throughout the world, He meant for them to make His message "catholic as in universal", not Roman or Greek Catholic .. according to the prediction of St. Malachi, Pope Francis will be the last Pope and the one who will be alive through the Great Tribulation as "defender" or "defector" .. I believe he will be the "defector" and "false prophet" with Antichrist in the final One World Order .. we are in end times and the RCC and its members need to make some drastic "salvation" changes .. one problem is Nostra Aetate by Pope Paul VI in 1965 that has been upheld by all Popes since .. Pope John XXIII's Vatican II attempt at Ecumenism went astray and awry and is syncretism .. check it out ..

This pope is definitely for a world-wide religion.
That they are all equal and should be able to get along together is at the least of his desires. Some prominent Protestants were photographed with him and were in agreement. I can't think of any right now....but in the upper echelons of the Protestant denominations.

Why do you not like the Nostra Aetate?
Because it refers to other religions besides the jews?

 

[GodsGrace]

the best most enthusiastic priest i have ever experienced turned out to have a double life. he committed suicide when the scandal was first exposed.

Gee, Golly..I wonder what it was. An affair? That would be nothing new.

It happens all over. A pastor I knew was stealing from his denominational church and was dismissed (or whatever it's called).

This is why we have to focus on Jesus and not on any human.