The Pope and Doctrine

[for_his_glory]

The New Testament records the history of the church from approximately A.D. 30 to approximately A.D. 90. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the one true church doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.

The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century (and following) church did not have the complete New Testament. Churches had portions of the New Testament, but the New Testament (and the full Bible) were not commonly available until after the invention of the printing press in A.D. 1440. The early church did its best in passing on the teachings of the apostles through oral tradition, and through extremely limited availability to the Word in written form.

The Protestant Reformation was followed very closely after the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible into the common languages of the people. Once people began to study the Bible for themselves, it became very clear how far the Roman Catholic Church/Orthodox had departed from the church that is described in the New Testament.


Scripture never mentions using "which church came first" as the basis for determining which is the "true" church. What it does teach is that one is to use Scripture as the determining factor as to which church is preaching the truth and thus is true to the first church. It is especially important to compare Scripture with a church's teaching on such core issues as the full deity and humanity of Christ, the atonement for sin through His blood on Calvary, salvation from sin by grace through faith, and the infallibility of the Scriptures. The “first church” and “one true church” is recorded in the New Testament. That is the church that all churches are to follow, emulate, and model themselves after.

 

[JohnDB]

It's the history that causes all the trouble.

The Reformation happened for a reason.
The Crusades are viewed by most nations as a horrible moment in history.
Then currently there are the very public cases of abuse by priests.

The RCC is having issues. This latest Pope is just one of many. Ratzinger was a good man...I don't agree with his decision. He should have toughed it out and let the guilty people pay for their crimes. Let the chips fall where they may.
Too bad.
I remember when JohnPaul was installed on the heels of a pope who forgot to take his medicine and subsequently died.

Now JohnPaul didn't make many waves...but he also allowed the current situation to grow to the place the Church is today. (It didn't happen overnight)

It's along the lines of what the Muslims are claiming about their religion... except the exact opposite. The Muslims claim that extremist have hijacked their religion and the Catholic claim that liberals have hijacked theirs.

 

[humble soul]

I no longer take theological differences between denominations too seriously. Its not worth losing sleep over. Is it that important that it should divide us?

 

[GodsGrace]

Im a Catholic but not a Marian Catholic. I think there a distinction there that should be made these days.

Our Holy father hasn't changed any doctrines that Im aware of but iv'e kind of tuned out. The Catechism says that the RCCs teachings are guided by the Holy Spirit and won't lead people astray. So whenever there is a dogma declared or a change in doctrine that is virtually God's will manifested through our Holy Father by the Holy Spirit. Whoever told u the pope has no right to change doctrines is in error.

Just recently many bishops, priests and other clergy made up a huge petition to declare the following as infallible dogma, Mary co-redemptrix.

In announcing his decision the Holy Father referred to the idea as "nonsense". For me the best thing iv heard from him and evidence that the Holy Spirit really is guiding the RCC teachings.

I apologize if u actually wanted this Mary dogma. I respect the Blessed Virgin but making her redeemer as dogma forces everyone to believe and conform when Catholics already have that option.

Anyway im new here, pleased to meet u.

Hi Christ the King....
Welcome to the forum!

I used to be Catholic and have taught in that denomination and still have ties to it,,,but in theology I'm Protestant, but I love my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ - of which I have many since I live in Italy.

Just a couple of thoughts here:
When the Pope takes his oath, he does take an oath not to change any former dogma or doctrine.

I DO believe this Pope has changed a doctrine and that would be the one whereby remarried persons are not allowed to receive Communion---now they can due to Amores Laetitia, chapter 8 and postscript. This has caused much fury and I just feel it was a big mistake since remarriage is not even allowed in the CC.

As to God manifesting Himself through the Holy Spirit....I'd say that the Holy Spirit can make known the teachings of God...however, it is then up to MAN to put this teaching into practice....or not.

As to Mary,,,,I agree with you 100% on all.

I'm just having a difficult time with this Pope...
so good for some things,
so bad for others.....for Catholics, that is.

And in February his encyclical on allowing priests to marry will be available. I have no problem with this. Do you?

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no authentic historical fact or evidence as far as I am aware where a single figure gets passed on the privilege to rule over and be the head of Jesus's Church.

I'm not a fan of Popes or the CC but I respect there freedom of belief and religion.

It's just like any system with a head Leader, they make or change the doctrine, sit on there thrones, and are covered in gold while everyone praises them for the reason I have no idea as they are just a human being like everyone else in need of God's grace and mercy through Christ.

Yet they get looked at as more special important. If people loved themselves and forgave themselves rather than looking up to others as greater they might see truth.

There's a historical fact for the Pope.
Someone has to be in charge of a religion that is growing world-wide.

Don't Protestant churches have leaders?
Even non-denominational churches have a leader.
People love or hate the Pope,,,why I don't really know and in this regard I agree with you.

But I do understand the reason for having one.
Could you imagine if every Catholic church could just do whatever it wanted to?

Not to mention that the reason our faith has come down to us is thanks to the Catholic Church. It kept heresies out and the truth in. (in the beginning).

 

[GodsGrace]

Im a Catholic in name but hardly hardcore. i only hear on the mainstream news what the Pope thinks on matters. and then only in one liners like "do not judge others". Conservatives think he is a hippie liberal. He does seem to favour mercy than spelling out doctrine.
thats the little i know. i do like him overall.

Most Catholics are like you.
They really don't know what's going on in their own church!
Maybe it's better...I don't know.
But you're right...it's the conservatives that have a big problem with him....he's changing too much too fast.

 

[GodsGrace]

Same here bro. Some hardcore Catholics consider me to be a heretic even... LoL...?

Its better for me to keep a simple child like understanding of Catholicism cos there is just too much advanced theology thats complicated and irrelevant.

I don't know if it's irrelevant (probably it is)
but it sure is complicated !
And the book put together by Pope John Paul II is just as difficult to understand. It could leave you scratching your head....

 

[GodsGrace]

But have u been to a Catholic forum? The two I've seen are just ruthless.

Do you suppose this is because they're told that they have the one, true religion?

I do believe this is the case.
I hear from them that Protestants do not have the TOTAL truth.
Yes, as humble soul said,,,it does seem that the less knowledgeable are more humble.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ahahaha I can imagine... Where did u say that?

I did the prodigal son and came back to God with a very basic understanding. After reading the new testament for the first time many questions arose, especially about u know who. ?

Now my parents are Portuguese and I thought only they were obsessed with Mary cos of Fatima. Furthermore im worried, wondering why they worship her when the bible says nothing, and why shes asked us to pray 10 hail Mary's to 1 our father in repetitions, are they disobeying God, will they get saved, is this Fatima apparition demonic? So i was really concerned for the salvation of my parents who are such good devout Christians.?

So i went onto Fisheaters...My opening thread... Oohhh mate. I just put it all down, unfiltered, very bluntly...? The possibility of my parents burning in hell because of a deception from Satan made my boil which came across in my post....:angry
I'll let your imagination paint the picture of their reactions. I was so confused

It makes you wonder what denomination God is......

 

[humble soul]

Most Catholics are like you.
They really don't know what's going on in their own church!
Maybe it's better...I don't know.
But you're right...it's the conservatives that have a big problem with him....he's changing too much too fast.

not sure i like the Church to be honest. all pomp and circumstance. thats why i take little interest. maybe im a rebel

 

[GodsGrace]

The New Testament records the history of the church from approximately A.D. 30 to approximately A.D. 90. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the one true church doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.

The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century (and following) church did not have the complete New Testament. Churches had portions of the New Testament, but the New Testament (and the full Bible) were not commonly available until after the invention of the printing press in A.D. 1440. The early church did its best in passing on the teachings of the apostles through oral tradition, and through extremely limited availability to the Word in written form.

The Protestant Reformation was followed very closely after the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible into the common languages of the people. Once people began to study the Bible for themselves, it became very clear how far the Roman Catholic Church/Orthodox had departed from the church that is described in the New Testament.


Scripture never mentions using "which church came first" as the basis for determining which is the "true" church. What it does teach is that one is to use Scripture as the determining factor as to which church is preaching the truth and thus is true to the first church. It is especially important to compare Scripture with a church's teaching on such core issues as the full deity and humanity of Christ, the atonement for sin through His blood on Calvary, salvation from sin by grace through faith, and the infallibility of the Scriptures. The “first church” and “one true church” is recorded in the New Testament. That is the church that all churches are to follow, emulate, and model themselves after.

The early church had instruction and was a good church, trying to do its best under very bad circumstances....like people being fed to lions, roasted, head chopped, etc. I sometimes wonder how it even survived. It must truly be God at work.

I DO believe that there had to be a first church,,,,that first church was the church that was around after the Apostles died...it was the Catholic (universal) Church. It split in 1,000 with the Orthodox, or V V I should say.

We could not like any church, and some are far worse than the CC, but we cannot deny history. History does not end with the last writing in the N.T. but does continue on.

 

[GodsGrace]

not sure i like the Church to be honest. all pomp and circumstance. thats why i take little interest. maybe im a rebel

LOL
You're not a rebel. We all have our ideas.
The Protestant church is great for teaching, preaching, speaking the gospel, etc.

The CC is great for liturgies....a child will always remember his first Communion. Everything is given great importance. The Real Presence, etc. I should say transubstantiation but I hate to get into that.

This is good in a way. At least we're not living under the law like those in the faith of Islam.

We truly need to have a relationship with God....
We need to be born from above...
And not just follow a lot of rules without even knowing why...some do this.

 

[humble soul]

LOL
You're not a rebel. We all have our ideas.
The Protestant church is great for teaching, preaching, speaking the gospel, etc.

The CC is great for liturgies....a child will always remember his first Communion. Everything is given great importance. The Real Presence, etc. I should say transubstantiation but I hate to get into that.

This is good in a way. At least we're not living under the law like those in the faith of Islam.

We truly need to have a relationship with God....
We need to be born from above...
And not just follow a lot of rules without even knowing why...some do this.

i agree. Protestants are right in that we just need to go back to basics.
Personal relationship with God numero uno. All the rest is icing on the cake.

 

[Christ the King]

The New Testament records the history of the church from approximately A.D. 30 to approximately A.D. 90. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the one true church doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles.

The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century (and following) church did not have the complete New Testament. Churches had portions of the New Testament, but the New Testament (and the full Bible) were not commonly available until after the invention of the printing press in A.D. 1440. The early church did its best in passing on the teachings of the apostles through oral tradition, and through extremely limited availability to the Word in written form.

The Protestant Reformation was followed very closely after the invention of the printing press and the translation of the Bible into the common languages of the people. Once people began to study the Bible for themselves, it became very clear how far the Roman Catholic Church/Orthodox had departed from the church that is described in the New Testament.

Scripture never mentions using "which church came first" as the basis for determining which is the "true" church. What it does teach is that one is to use Scripture as the determining factor as to which church is preaching the truth and thus is true to the first church. It is especially important to compare Scripture with a church's teaching on such core issues as the full deity and humanity of Christ, the atonement for sin through His blood on Calvary, salvation from sin by grace through faith, and the infallibility of the Scriptures. The “first church” and “one true church” is recorded in the New Testament. That is the church that all churches are to follow, emulate, and model themselves after.

I respect your opinion but it's got nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
I understand the views of both Protestants and Catholics and see right and wrongs in both. But im not into such debates or defending the the wrongs of the RCC.
God Bless

 

[Christ the King]

The Crusades are viewed by most nations as a horrible moment in history.

Horrible how? What course of action do u suggest should of been taken?

 

[Christ the King]

When the Pope takes his oath, he does take an oath not to change any former dogma or doctrine.

Does he, I didn't know that.

I DO believe this Pope has changed a doctrine and that would be the one whereby remarried persons are not allowed to receive Communion---now they can due to Amores Laetitia, chapter 8 and postscript. This has caused much fury and I just feel it was a big mistake since remarriage is not even allowed in the CC.

I don't have a strong opinion on this. My first thought is one of forgiveness. God forgives everyone for any sin as long as they repent from the heart. Maybe it applies here too, though I haven't given it much thought.

And in February his encyclical on allowing priests to marry will be available. I have no problem with this. Do you?

Again this isn't something I have pondered. My first thought is that it would decrease the cases for sexual harassment/assault and give them a more practical position of experience to teach from i guess.

But if the Pope does take an oath not to change any former dogma or doctrine then he's wrong to do so.

It makes you wonder what denomination God is...

I don't think God is any denomination, I believe he is with several. I do think God is still with the RCC because of the ability priests have to perform exorcisms.
Jesus gave his apostles the ability to drive out demons and still today the RCC is the highest authority on the subject and perform many more exorcisms than anyone else.

 

[Corn Pop]

There's a historical fact for the Pope.
Someone has to be in charge of a religion that is growing world-wide.

Don't Protestant churches have leaders?
Even non-denominational churches have a leader.
People love or hate the Pope,,,why I don't really know and in this regard I agree with you.

But I do understand the reason for having one.
Could you imagine if every Catholic church could just do whatever it wanted to?

Not to mention that the reason our faith has come down to us is thanks to the Catholic Church. It kept heresies out and the truth in. (in the beginning).

There is no historical fact for the Pope. Nothing in scripture gives a single human being rule over Jesus Christ's Church. Jesus said he will send the Spirit, not the Pope. The scripture is the Word, not a human being.

As for the Pope I have nothing against him, he is just a human being like me in need of God's grace and mercy. I just don't look at him as higher status or greater than anyone else.

 

[JohnDB]

Ex-cathedra and Apostolic Succession are two main tenents of the Catholic Church.

This is their claim.

Now they are having kittens over these doctrines.

So...is priest celebacy a doctrine that came ex-cathedra or not?
Has somehow Apostolic Succession failed?

Both of these doctrines are heavily under fire.

Where the Catholic Church is not exactly a democracy...a certain amount of agreement must be had for things to work. Collections from American Catholics tend to pay for the other diocese around the world. If the American section of the Church is so morally bankrupt that they are corrupting the other nations... what happens next?

I remember the good ol days when it was just the Franciscans vx the Jesuits.

 

[Sparkey]

Here's a quick thank you to those who have posted here. Online there are so few mature discussions of this nature. It's refreshing to 'listen' to this one: Thanks!

I remember the good ol days when it was just the Franciscans vx the Jesuits.

Me too. I used to play Diablo II online and had a couple 'brothers' who also played there. One was a Franciscan. Great fun.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Christ the King....
Welcome to the forum!

I used to be Catholic and have taught in that denomination and still have ties to it,,,but in theology I'm Protestant, but I love my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ - of which I have many since I live in Italy.

Just a couple of thoughts here:
When the Pope takes his oath, he does take an oath not to change any former dogma or doctrine.

I DO believe this Pope has changed a doctrine and that would be the one whereby remarried persons are not allowed to receive Communion---now they can due to Amores Laetitia, chapter 8 and postscript. This has caused much fury and I just feel it was a big mistake since remarriage is not even allowed in the CC.

As to God manifesting Himself through the Holy Spirit....I'd say that the Holy Spirit can make known the teachings of God...however, it is then up to MAN to put this teaching into practice....or not.

As to Mary,,,,I agree with you 100% on all.

I'm just having a difficult time with this Pope...
so good for some things,
so bad for others.....for Catholics, that is.

And in February his encyclical on allowing priests to marry will be available. I have no problem with this. Do you?

Sparrowhawke

Hi,,
You just gave me a like for the above and I had forgotten to fix what I wrote.

In February an encyclical is coming out written by Pope Francis.
I said "allowing priests to marry"....NO! I meant that this is being considered and it MIGHT declare this, and perhaps not.

We'll have to wait to find out...but he is in favor of this.