The Pre WRATH rapture of the church

[Cornelius]

Amen. There are two people in the Book of revelation, the overcomer and everyone else. The rapture doctrine is totally contrary to overcoming. It is an excapism doctrine. Please Lord put me thought your fire.

I SO agree.

I also NEED to go through the tribulation. We all need to overcome.

What the heck makes christians think there so special in this day that we get a free pass????? Daniel didnt get a free pass the 3 young boys didnt get a pass,,,Israel didnt get a free pass,,,there are no free passes with God.....Either you will go thru the fire and be purifyed or you can accept satan as Christ until the real Christ comes back,,,,and from what I here,,,The real Christ is not going to be in the best mood when He returns.......

I don't really understand what you are saying. What "free pass" are you talking about. We will all have to go through the fire. Yes, just like the 3 young boys you speak of. But you have to admit, they were IN the fire, yet UNTOUCHED by the fire.

C

 

[(THE)]

Let me make it clearer........satan is returning to earth,,,,his goal is to convince the whole world he is Jesus Christ........ This will be the biggest test of a christian living in the days of satan's return....

If GOd takes us before satan gets here,,,we wont be able to take the test,,,aka free-pass....

Concerning Daniel,,,,,(THE) book of Daniel is a shadow of what is to come,,,The boys and Daniel were commanded to worship the beast (test) they didnt worship the beast......I wonder why God just didnt rapture them away???.........lol,,,,,,,,GOd didnt rapture them and its an example to us on how we are suppose to act when faced with the option of worshipping satan or being put to death.....clearer


(THE)

 

[Cornelius]

LOL Ok yes.
For a moment there I thought you were FOR the pre-trib rapture .

 

[(THE)]

LOL Ok yes.
For a moment there I thought you were FOR the pre-trib rapture .

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rapture :amen

 

[Benoni]

Amen, now we are getting somewhere.

Daniels friend’s thrown in the Fiery Furnace in Babylon. Only heir bondages were burn.

Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


Praise God for his purifing fire.

 

[Benoni]

Satan has no power unless God gives it to him.

Let me make it clearer........satan is returning to earth,,,,his goal is to convince the whole world he is Jesus Christ........ This will be the biggest test of a christian living in the days of satan's return....

If GOd takes us before satan gets here,,,we wont be able to take the test,,,aka free-pass....

Concerning Daniel,,,,,(THE) book of Daniel is a shadow of what is to come,,,The boys and Daniel were commanded to worship the beast (test) they didnt worship the beast......I wonder why God just didnt rapture them away???.........lol,,,,,,,,GOd didnt rapture them and its an example to us on how we are suppose to act when faced with the option of worshipping satan or being put to death.....clearer


(THE)

 

[Cornelius]

Satan has no power unless God gives it to him.

That is true :

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the fire of coals, and bringeth forth a weapon for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

 

[n2thelight]

For those who believe in the rapture,question!Who will the Holy Spirit speak through,if all the believer's are gone...In other words,how shall the below verse come to pass?

Mark 13:11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.


And by the way,not meaning to change the subject but I got to get this in...The above verse is also the next time true tongues will be spoken...

 

[Biblereader]

HA HA HA! Boy, that was a good one! Shut them all up, didn't it?
Excellent Scripture quoting! Good job!

For those who believe in the rapture,question!Who will the Holy Spirit speak through,if all the believer's are gone...In other words,how shall the below verse come to pass?

Mark 13:11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.


And by the way,not meaning to change the subject but I got to get this in...The above verse is also the next time true tongues will be spoken...

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

onelove- you bring up a very good point!.

Usually pre trib people believe that it is the church or the Holy Ghost that is withholding the son of perdition so the thinking follows that the church with the Holy Ghost needs to be removed from earth in order for the enemy to come forth. The problem is that they all have to admit there are saints in the trib, so even if they thought there were taken there is still a church here afterward and there is still the Holy Ghost here to save them, empower them to overcome, to preach the gospel through them etc...! If the Holy Ghost was removed from the earth NO ONE COULD GET SAVED TO HAVE ANY " TRIB SAINTS" AROUND. and ' No one would be here to preach the gospel to them or the world to fulfill not only the verse you posted but also this-
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Not to mention, that we have never seen a scriptural example of faithful saints having to be removed fully before an evil government or enemy could rise up ( as their doctrine says is why the church has to go before son of perdition is revealed). ALWAYS There was faithful holy saints, in the midst of a harlot church whom God brings wicked enemies against to purify them and He uses the Holy faithful saints to tell the rest in harlotry how to return to the living God and turn from idols to be set free of bondages.- Never does God leave people in the midst of troubles without a holy faithful person to tell them the truth, to preach to them repentance or obedience or faith etc etc....

I really believe that as a whole the church is in such a state, and the doctrines that most christians have come to believe in are so far off of the truth that many truly do not understand or see how badly the church NEEDS tribulation to get the truth in them to follow after God in faith FOR REAL and to get the world out of their hearts.

 

[n2thelight]

GodspromisesRyes

I really believe that as a whole the church is in such a state, and the doctrines that most christians have come to believe in are so far off of the truth that many truly do not understand or see how badly the church NEEDS tribulation to get the truth in them to follow after God in faith FOR REAL and to get the world out of their hearts.

The problem they have is,they think the anti christ is some person posessed by satan and that he will be going around killing people..The first thing one must realize is that the anti christ is non other than satan himself...This is when he comes....

Revelation 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

he's in Heaven now,and this is who kicks him out,as the above verse comes to pass.....

Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8
"And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Those who will be doing the killing will be those who think they are helping God but are doing the work of satan...

John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

The whole purpose of the tribulation is,deception,not torture and a bunch of killing, although some will be killed...

When satan come's he shall come as an angel of light...

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light

with the purpose of making you think he is the true Christ....

That's why Christ #1 warning was for you not to be deceived....

Matthew 24:3
"And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Matthew 24:4
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

And Paul also warned us of the same thing...

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What day is Paul talking about and also Christ in Matt 24.....?Both are talking about the return of Christ and both tells us that things must happen before that time,especially Christ in 24,in fact you can see all seven seals, in Matt 24....

What the Churches of today really need to do is,read about the 7 Churches in the book of Rev. and study the two that Christ found no fault with....

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

good post one! here is something cool WHY does michael and the angels finally kick satan out of heaven??? This is GREAT!

Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].

Rev 8:8 ¶ And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;


Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.


Rev 8:10 ¶ And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;


Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.


Rev 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

the faith and prayers of the saints in the trib give time for michael to cast satan and his kingdom out of heaven.

 

[veteran]

The idea of what withholdeth Paul was talking about in 2 Thess.2 goes along with that event of Rev.12 when the dragon and his angels are cast down to this earth by the heavenly war with Michael.

Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(KJV)

Michael makes a stand in Heaven, casting Satan and his angels to earth, and then a time of trouble such as never was begins, i.e., the great tribulation. Michael is the one withholding until that time.

Dan 10:21
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(KJV)

 

[Vic C.]

I agree Vet. I posted somewhere else saying this is what the Pre Wrath people teach. :yes

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I dont agree with the idea of the michael thing or the church or the Holy Ghost being what withholds after looking alot into this. i believe that the actual context itself shows us what it is, but also that we are shown elsewhere by doctrine and by example.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Us being gathered to Christ cannot happen UNTIL there is FIRST a falling away that will then reveal the son of perdition. What withholds the gathering of the saints to Christ IS THE FALLING AWAY, because only AFTER there is a falling away AND the son of perdition revealed can there THEN be our gathering to Christ.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Who gets taken out of the way? The son of perdition gets taken out of the way, when they FALL AWAY. When fall away their falling back to the world and departing from us, shows WHO they were and they are revealed. John tells us the same thing
1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

We saw the same example elsewhere in scripture for example with korah. korah was one of the body of israel but no one knew he was not of them until he fell away and was revealed in the rebellion. Judas also was hidden amoung them as an apostle but was secretly a lover of sin and no one kenw who would betray jesus. They all said IS IT I LORD? No one said " i bet its judas". he was hidden amoung them and only when he fell away and betrayed Jesus did they SEE wwith the kiss WHO had fallen away, WHO the devil amoung them was and only THEN was he revealed and Jesus called him " son of perdition"!Same title as in 2 thess 2.

Hebrews also shows us a connection to 2 thess 2 that these are those who are the son of perdition as being those who were of us it seemed but who go away back to sins and cannot be renewed to repentance.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

So the what that withholds is the falling away which will then reveal the WHO of the son of perdition only after this is done can we be gathered to Christ and the day of Christ will come

 

[Vic C.]

The falling away is apostasia; an apostasy.

The full power of this evil one (ma of sin) is held back by the Restrainer. In some translations, the "he" is "He". That to me refers to someone heavenly or divine. The identity of this restrainer isn't obvious in the passage at all. Paul say this:

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? (nkjv)

That tells me Paul spoke to them about this previously and it isn't recorded in scripture.

There is no way this son of perdition is taken out of the way during this time of apostasy. If anything, this son is revealed because of the apostasy and because this restrainer steps out of his way. This is exactly what Paul tells us:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

What is taken out of the way is he who is holding back the man of sin. Paul, knowledgeable in Jewish traditions and Paul, who is speaking to mainly converts, would know about Michael's protective relationship with 'Israel'.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=michael

I am repeating the verse Vet posted because it is a key verse:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Michael as Restrainer gets overlooked because people just aren't looking for clues in the proper places. Daniel mentions Michael three times, all in reference to restraining.

http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/Bible ... rainer.htm

I've read many reason's why Michael can't be this restrainer, but most reasons contain faulty logic in an attempt to justify preconceived ideas.