The Pre WRATH rapture of the church

[(THE)]

^ C'mon bro, take a break before you get #3. ^

______________________________________________________________________________________

The resurrection of the sheep and goats is at the end of the thousand year reign. The goats are destroyed, and after that, death and the grave are done away with.

Since this is a thread on Pre Wrath, I'd like to go back to this quote by MDO.

One of the things I learned when studying Pre Wrath was that the sheep/goat judgment pertains to those alive after the tribulation/wrath. Without going too deep into the position, it teaches (and supports it with scripture) that this isn't a resurrection. No resurrection is mentioned and no resurrection can be attributed to it without rearranging and reinterpreting scripture.

This wrath is know as the Day of the Lord and the DOTL as we are shown in scripture, is tied to the remnant of Israel that is being drawn to their Messiah. We already know not all will be destroyed during the trib/wrath. The sheep/goat judgment is for those who treated or mistreated God's chosen remnant during the GT and Wrath.

Note, the verses below are pre-millennium, meaning these event happen before the 1,000 years.

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. ( ^ these are the "sheep")
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. ( ^ these are the "goats")
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

."]^ C'mon bro, take a break before you get #3. ^

From reading my above post for the 9th time,,,,,I must assume you mean,,,im not allowed to laugh at silly comments,,,or ask questions.......Since this is a forum with different personalitys ,,some funny,, there is going to be some laughing ,,,and many more questions......

The funny think about it is,, your looking for smaller and smaller things on my behalf to issue a warning.....Heck you issued a warning when I was talking to a moderator in a debate ,,,as if they couldnt......Taking things into your own hands hey Vic.......

But whatever go for what you know.......

anyhow The bible gave instruction to faithful christians ,,,on what they are to do during this time of temptation/tribulation.....If we were to be gone,,,we would not have these specific lenghty instructions,,,many from Chrsit himself.......Its no wonder we have people with high power levels that refuse to even discuss this non-sense with rapture believers.....

Man if I was satan,,,I would return twist a couple of things tell christians there going to be raptured and BAM ...hook line sinker......

 

[JudaicChristian]

We need to find a way to harmonize scripture:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5 Re-Edited
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection.(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

[Vic C.]

I will address this once and then please, can we let it go?

The funny think about it is,, your looking for smaller and smaller things on my behalf to issue a warning.....Heck you issued a warning when I was talking to a moderator in a debate ,,,as if they couldnt......Taking things into your own hands hey Vic.......

If saying moderating a forum where I am Mod is taking things into my own hands, then yes, I am guilty.

I'm not looking for smaller and smaller issues; I'm dealing with the same issues over and over with you. Other members have commented concerning your remarks. This is what I would like to see here: I'd like to come into this forum and see people talking to each other with the respect asked of us as Christians.

That doesn't mean calling them ignorant or insisting they are wrong with !!!!!!!!!! after the statement. That to me is akin to a toddler throwing a tantrum and stomping their feet in misbehavior.

But anyway...

MDO, moving punctuations and verse #s around doesn't solve the issue. Or, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. As it stands, Revelation indicates there is a 1,000 year span between resurrections. Where it say first, would be an indication of two or more. If it said 'only' then I would concede to there being only one.

Nic

 

[(THE)]

We need to find a way to harmonize scripture:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5 Re-Edited
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection.(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Look,,,,im living right now,,,,I am alive spiritualy and physicaly......When Christ returns me and everyone else living will be changed into spirtual bodys.,,,,no more flesh......

When Christ returns if I have not been following the antichrist I will get to reign with Christ,,,,,Christ will lock satan up for 1000 years and the elect (those that have not followed satan/antichrist) will teach and mentor,,,,then satan will be released,,,and go out to decieve one last time.......so simple bro....

 

[JudaicChristian]

A problem in translating from Hebrew or Greek has always been, it what order to place a sentence for the English language. Those languages to us are spoken backwards. The sentences and punctuations are re-interpreted for our English language. Many words do not even translate into English, and so an interpretation must be given. Even word articles such as "a" are guessed at. For example: Did Yahshua say he was God, or did he say he was "a god?" And so you see, what we may think to be a matter of fact, may not be so. And that is why it is so very important to do a deep search for the truth.

 

[JudaicChristian]

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Look,,,,im living right now,,,,I am alive spiritualy and physicaly......When Christ returns me and everyone else living will be changed into spirtual bodys.,,,,no more flesh......

When Christ returns if I have not been following the antichrist I will get to reign with Christ,,,,,Christ will lock satan up for 1000 years and the elect (those that have not followed satan/antichrist) will teach and mentor,,,,then satan will be released,,,and go out to decieve one last time.......so simple bro....

• For sure the dead and dying who are the Elect will be resurrected and reign with Christ. That is the first resurrection. This scripture is about Christians during the reign of Christ here on earth.

• Revelation 2:26.To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
  27'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
  he will dash them to pieces like pottery'— just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star. 29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

[(THE)]

I will address this once and then please, can we let it go?

The funny think about it is,, your looking for smaller and smaller things on my behalf to issue a warning.....Heck you issued a warning when I was talking to a moderator in a debate ,,,as if they couldnt......Taking things into your own hands hey Vic.......

If saying moderating a forum where I am Mod is taking things into my own hands, then yes, I am guilty.

I'm not looking for smaller and smaller issues; I'm dealing with the same issues over and over with you.
That doesn't mean calling them ignorant or insisting they are wrong with !!!!!!!!!! after the statement. That to me is akin to a toddler throwing a tantrum and stomping their feet in misbehavior.

But anyway...

MDO, moving punctuations and verse #s around doesn't solve the issue. Or, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. As it stands, Revelation indicates there is a 1,000 year span between resurrections. Where it say first, would be an indication of two or more. If it said 'only' then I would concede to there being only one.

Nic

If saying moderating a forum where I am Mod is taking things into my own hands, then yes, I am guilty.

LOL,,,,I bet you the people complaining all believe in a rapture,,or are offended when I say satan mated with Eve.......

That to me is akin to a toddler throwing a tantrum and stomping their feet in misbehavior.

Now that was funny,,,,,O Yeah and a moderator feeling the need to step over another modertor to issue a warning is akin to a internet powertrip.....

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, .......................... ??????????????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry bro nothing about a toddler over here....

But whatever if you believe in a rapture fine,,,,,if you dont believe in the rapture and are to afraid to confront another moderator on the issue,, then fine........be as strict as you wont be as lenient as you want ,,fine....Worship whomever you choose to wordship and end up wherever you end up,,,finish...

 

[n2thelight]

Question for those who believe in a rapture.

Can Christ return at anytime,meaning any minute now,you all could be raptured away?

 

[veteran]

We need to find a way to harmonize scripture:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Scriptures are indeed in harmony.

How does that Rev.20:5-6 example perfectly harmonize with what our Lord Jesus showed in the John 5 example of two different TYPES of resurrection at His coming, one for the just and another for the unjust?

Jesus gave you an important 'key' there in Rev.20:6 about the difference, with the those of the first resurrection "on such the second death hath no power". What's the "second death"? The casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of the "thousand years". Would those of the 'resurrection unto damnation' in John 5:29 still be subject to the "second death"? Yes.

In 1 Cor.15, Apostle Paul taught that as we have borne the "image of the earthy", we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly" (1 Cor.15:49). Have only those in Christ Jesus borne the "image of the earthy"? No. All born flesh have, which includes the unjust also.

Those "dead" of Rev.20:5 is about the resurrection unto damnation, the unjust. John 5:29 is specific that they will be raised from the dead at the same time as the resurrection of life. The problem in misunderstanding is from men's traditions about being literally dead in the ground. The 'dead' of Rev.20:5 is about the unjust that will be resurrected too, but still liable to die the "second death".

Many miss two conditions Paul taught in 1 Cor.15:53 to have eternal Life through Christ. First, our body of corruption must put on incorruption. That's about the change of our flesh body to the "image of the heavenly", the "spiritual body" he taught. But also "this mortal" must put on "immortality". That's another required change, our mortal soul has to put on immortality through Christ Jesus too, and only then... is death swallowed up in victory (meaning never being subject to the "second death").

The "dead" of Rev.20:5 will still be subject to the "second death"; their souls will still be in a 'liable to die' condition, still able to suffer the "second death". That's the "resurrection of damnation."

Here's a picture of those our Lord Jesus gave us for that time...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

The "synagogue of Satan" represents the seat of Christ's enemies, truly unjust wicked. Notice He reveals those will come and worship Him at the feet of His elect of the Church of Philadelphia. That has never happened in history, nor yet today. It's for that future "thousand years" timing of Christ's literal reign on earth with His elect priests. In Ezekiel 44, we are shown about the Zadok (Just) priests who reign with Christ during that time, how they will be allowed to go to a "dead" relative. It reads like those are literally dead people, but they're not, because that's Milennium timing. It's using the 'dead' metaphor, an idea our Lord Jesus even used for the blind Pharisees whom He said were inside full of dead men's bones, while outside appear as whited sepulchures (Matt.23:27).

So what is the 'second' resurrection that is inferred because of mention of a first? Well, what's that "thousand years" time for in the first place? Why have a "thousand years" delay with the wicked still in existence throughout that? Why doesn't our Lord just immediately shoot to the new heavens and a new earth timing, the Eternity, destroying the wicked, hell, death, and the devil in the "lake of fire" at His coming?

Well, firstly, because it's written that all knees will bow to Christ Jesus as LORD and KING. All will confess Him. But is that the only reason? And if the wicked are not raised for that time, then who do Christ's elect priests and kings rule over with the "rod of iron"? Other elect of the first resurrection? No.

The Matthew 25 example of all nations being brought to Christ when He will separate His sheep from the goats is another example which aligns in harmony with that too. The main difference is the "thousand years" timing is not mentioned there, but only hinted at.

 

[veteran]

I certainly am not out to cause hardship or distress upon those who do follow the pre-trib secret rapture idea. I don't ask anyone on that tradition to believe what I say about it. I've spent many years study in God's Word for myself about it, and then many years weighing the teachings of others about it, both in favour and against. I'm not the type of person to simply believe man though. I see too many 'direct' Scriptures that go against the idea, many of them directly from our Lord Jesus. And what He says I choose over any man, Church organizational system, or creed tradition.

 

[Cornelius]

I certainly am not out to cause hardship or distress upon those who do follow the pre-trib secret rapture idea. I don't ask anyone on that tradition to believe what I say about it. I've spent many years study in God's Word for myself about it, and then many years weighing the teachings of others about it, both in favour and against. I'm not the type of person to simply believe man though. I see too many 'direct' Scriptures that go against the idea, many of them directly from our Lord Jesus. And what He says I choose over any man, Church organizational system, or creed tradition.

Amen. Plus if we read the history of God's people through the age, God has never prevented them from tribulation, but has always taken them through it. They also come out purified on the other side.

Only in the fire of tribulation will the church come into unity. Only in tribulation will the church be forced to let go of doctrines of men and we will run to the Word to get saved from the evil that is upon us. At the moment we have choices and we make the wrong ones. But in tribulation God removes the choices and we get to only depend on Him, or perish.

A good example is Haiti at the moment. Imagine Haiti on a world-wide scale (just MUCH worse) and imagine what you will do to survive ! No doctors, no medicine. All of a sudden prayer and healing takes on a whole new meaning ! "My God shall supply all my needs" then becomes a lifeline and not something to argue about on a forum, in the comfort of your living room.

We NEED the tribulation . God knows this.

 

[XTruth]

I certainly am not out to cause hardship or distress upon those who do follow the pre-trib secret rapture idea. I don't ask anyone on that tradition to believe what I say about it. I've spent many years study in God's Word for myself about it, and then many years weighing the teachings of others about it, both in favour and against. I'm not the type of person to simply believe man though. I see too many 'direct' Scriptures that go against the idea, many of them directly from our Lord Jesus. And what He says I choose over any man, Church organizational system, or creed tradition.

Amen. Plus if we read the history of God's people through the age, God has never prevented them from tribulation, but has always taken them through it. They also come out purified on the other side.

Only in the fire of tribulation will the church come into unity. Only in tribulation will the church be forced to let go of doctrines of men and we will run to the Word to get saved from the evil that is upon us. At the moment we have choices and we make the wrong ones. But in tribulation God removes the choices and we get to only depend on Him, or perish.

A good example is Haiti at the moment. Imagine Haiti on a world-wide scale (just MUCH worse) and imagine what you will do to survive ! No doctors, no medicine. All of a sudden prayer and healing takes on a whole new meaning ! "My God shall supply all my needs" then becomes a lifeline and not something to argue about on a forum, in the comfort of your living room.

We NEED the tribulation . God knows this.

Had the earthquake been God's direct wrath against an ungodly people, then I assure you that all the righteous would have been warned to leave first.

1 Thes.5:9-11

Verse 9
a [For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ] God has not appointed Christians to go through the tribulation wrath, the sudden destruction of 1Th. 5:2-3; Rev. 6:1 -- Rev. 19:21; Mt. 24:15-21, or the wrath of eternal hell, but to be delivered by rapture so that whether we live or die we should live together with Him forever (1Th. 5:9-10; 4:13-18; 2Th. 2:7).

Verse 10
a [whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him] This clearly refers to the rapture of 1Th. 4:13-18 and proves that all in Christ -- dead or alive -- will be raptured and live with Christ forever, and that all will escape the wrath of 1Th. 5:1-3,9; Mt. 24:15-21; Rev. 6:1 -- Rev. 19:21.

Verse 11
a [Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another] This expression is used in 1Th. 4:18 and here, and in each passage it refers to comfort in view of rapture and escape of the wrath which will be poured out upon men after the rapture and before the second coming (Rev. 6:1 -- Rev. 19:21).

 

[Cornelius]

I agree. But tribulation is not wrath. We have not seen God's wrath yet. It only comes after the tribulation.

God knows words. He knows that tribulation is not wrath, so that is why He used the word "tribulation" in some places and the word "wrath" in other places.

Joh 16:33 .......... In the world ye have tribulation:............

Yes, we will have tribulation !


1Th 5:9 For God appointed us not into wrath,............

Yes , we will not go through the wrath.

Tribulation, yes
Wrath , no

 

[Cornelius]

First tribulation
Then last trumpet and resurrection/rapture
Then wrath.

 

[MMarc]

When Jesus was physically martyred and overcame physical death at Passover, the same happened to Jerusalem 40 years later. This was God's will this was the wrath of God.

When Jesus fulfills the fall feasts whereas He overcomes spiritual death at Atonement, then God will pour out Spiritual wrath.... 'some will be raised to eternal salvation (election) and some to eternal damnation'

Spiritual wrath, hell. Tribulation comes to turn us to God so we avoid hell, the ultimate wrath of God.

And may the Lord have mercy on their souls.

 

[interpreter]

Jesus never mentions a rapture, either in the Gospels or in the Revelation, given to us directly by Jesus.
As it was in the days of Noah and Lot, the bad guys will be taken away and the good guys left. I pray that I am one of those "left behind."

 

[Benoni]

Amen. There are two people in the Book of revelation, the overcomer and everyone else. The rapture doctrine is totally contrary to overcoming. It is an excapism doctrine. Please Lord put me thought your fire.

Jesus never mentions a rapture, either in the Gospels or in the Revelation, given to us directly by Jesus.
As it was in the days of Noah and Lot, the bad guys will be taken away and the good guys left. I pray that I am one of those "left behind."

 

[Cornelius]

Amen. There are two people in the Book of revelation, the overcomer and everyone else. The rapture doctrine is totally contrary to overcoming. It is an excapism doctrine. Please Lord put me thought your fire.

I SO agree.

I also NEED to go through the tribulation. We all need to overcome.

 

[(THE)]

I certainly am not out to cause hardship or distress upon those who do follow the pre-trib secret rapture idea. I don't ask anyone on that tradition to believe what I say about it. I've spent many years study in God's Word for myself about it, and then many years weighing the teachings of others about it, both in favour and against. I'm not the type of person to simply believe man though. I see too many 'direct' Scriptures that go against the idea, many of them directly from our Lord Jesus. And what He says I choose over any man, Church organizational system, or creed tradition.

The Hardship will come from lack of knowledge concerning Gods word....I have yet to meet a person that believes in the rapture,,,and understands shadows and types....big strike

I also havent met a person that believe in the rapture and understands the book of Revelataion...

When satan arrives,,,we will not have time to go back and correct our wrong doctrines.....If you do not have the full armor on he will suck you into the system....Personally I think most rapture believers on going to be sucked into the system.....Didnt God say something about being destroyed from lack of knowledge ,,,,hmmmmmmm destroyed....

 

[(THE)]

Amen. There are two people in the Book of revelation, the overcomer and everyone else. The rapture doctrine is totally contrary to overcoming. It is an excapism doctrine. Please Lord put me thought your fire.

I SO agree.

I also NEED to go through the tribulation. We all need to overcome.

What the heck makes christians think there so special in this day that we get a free pass????? Daniel didnt get a free pass the 3 young boys didnt get a pass,,,Israel didnt get a free pass,,,there are no free passes with God.....Either you will go thru the fire and be purifyed or you can accept satan as Christ until the real Christ comes back,,,,and from what I here,,,The real Christ is not going to be in the best mood when He returns.......