The Preterist Position - I have a Question

[nonbelieverforums]

Does the Preterist Position have the capability condemn people to hell ?

I have been going back and forth with a couple of believers who are of the Preterist position as it relates to bible prophecy.

To be honest I am learning as I go about this view. I am just a believer. But my concern about the view is that they deny the existence or the rise of a modern day 21 Century antichrist. I would like to know what Christians think about this view via the following question (or scenario) I posed.


QUESTION:

Lets say for example a world leader arose out of the E.U. He ultimately asked people to accept a mark or an rfid chip implant or they would be unable to buy or sell. This of course like everything in endtimes (my views not yours) came in the name of peace and security. So if I understand correctly, you would gladly accept this mark as you would be convinced there is no biblical Antichrist. What would your response to that be ?? Would you accept this mark knowing that if you didn't you would not be able to buy or sell? I ask you to please tell me what would you do if you were faced with this exact scenario? According to you there are no future signs or warnings. So no matter how much modern day events seem to match the events of Revelation you should have no worries.

Christians who have the future view I guess you call it ? Would not accept this mark as they have been properly educated and warned from scripture that this is the mark of the beast. But you would?

ANSWER:

None of those things would have anything to do with Bible prophecy! Furthermore, NBF--"Israel" today is NOT the Israel of the OT. That nation is gone forever! If Islamic nations go to war against modern, nonbiblical Israel, it would simply be a war between two godless nations. Any world leader who might emerge is NOT Antichrist since Antichrist and the spirit of Antichrist were OT entities. It could be said that any leader today who opposes Christ is "Antichrist"--but he would still not be anyone fulfilling Bible prophecy.

Can I not reject the mark of a tyrant even in our day although He is not THE supposed Antichrist of the Bible. Why would I receive a mark from such a man? Christ is still My Lord. I still serve Him. Why would I do something that displeases Him? Your hypothetical situation has nothing to do with Bible prophecy. Why should I have no worries? There are still great evils in this world--some of which are exemplified by those in power in the US! Because no biblical "Antichrist" is doing such wicked things does not mean I wouldn't be concerned about it. I don't get your point here. Whatever the situation, I would hope that I would do that which is pleasing to my Lord! What does Antichrist have to do with that?

QUESTION

It is very relevant. I suggest that some of your views could actually commit people to hell if we believe them.

If I come to Christ as a newcomer under this view, I would believe there is no such thing as a modern day “biblical Antichrist†in your own words. So if such a leader was to arise out of ten nations and he matched every single criteria that describes the Antichrist in the bible (I believe there are 46) I should have no worries because it’s just a coincidence. He won’t come as a tyrant (He will have a mouth speaking great things. Very boastful - Daniel 7:8). In the name of peace and security.

So when this charismatic world leader who says all the right things, and everyone just loves him starts talking about a wonderful security system that will protect us from terrorism, identity fraud, counterfeit currency, safer travel at our airports and borders, a perfect cashless society. When he pitches the mark in the name of peace and security anyone under your views should would be safe to accept the mark because there is no such thing as a biblical antichrist in the 21 Century .

If anyone accepts this mark they are condemned and you lead with way with your view. What if a man shows up out of nowhere and declares himself god or the son of god, I guess he could be then as we need not pay any attention to the bible warning us of false prophets in end times or the modern day.

My friend you need to open your eyes and pray for guidance. You need to read the bible and pay attention to the media and current events. The evidence is overwhelming and you should be ashamed in fact you should be repenting. Your eyes are closed. I mean you no disrespect but I don’t believe a person like you would ever see heaven.

Your view is a gamble and when you open your mouth and put it in writing it has the capability to condemn people to hell. This is the only real thing that concerns me about this view.

85% of the bible was prophetic when it was written OT and NT. Prophecy after prophecy has already been fulfilled. The evidence on what is happening to our world right now is overwhelming, the probability in the millions as it relates to prophecy. . You deny everything a modern day Israel, the third temple, the antichrist, the war of Ezekiel 38-39.

The world is slowing turning against Israel we can see how this can be now. Russian has already assisted Iran in obtaining nuclear weapons the relationship between the two countries is a matter of public record. I suspect we will be seeing Putin asking Russia to Unite with the Islamic nations to go to war against Israel very soon or at least in this lifetime. What will you say then ??

A third temple is being built. We see the signs of a one world religion from the UN Alliance of Civilizations, New Age is being preached. A centralized banking system is already set up. Time magazine just reported on the New World Order.

God gave us prophecy so we may see the signs and educate ourselves.

Not only is modern prophecy being fullfiled. The fullfilment of prophecies are be fulfilled in order almost to the point we know what's going to happen next IN ORDER. Let me say that again an actual sequence of events being fullfiled right in front of us IN ORDER. Are you blind?

Just how far will you take this view where you see modern day events unfold as it relates to prophecy and just ignore it and call it all a big coincidence. Because that is exactly what your saying while one prophecy is fullfiled after the other, one big coincidence.

If you were sitting in the middle of the battle Armageddon with bullets flying by your ears would you believe it then? Like what has to happen for you to register current events with biblical prophecy?

Brother/s please open your eyes !!

 

[duval]

I don't believe anyone will be sitting in the middle of armegeddon with bullets buzzing around his ears.

God bless,
duval

 

[nonbelieverforums]

I don't believe anyone will be sitting in the middle of armegeddon with bullets buzzing around his ears.

God bless,
duval

Nore do I ..

 

[Matthew24:34]

Does the Preterist Position have the capability condemn people to hell ?

I have been going back and forth with a couple of believers who are of the Preterist position as it relates to bible prophecy.

To be honest I am learning as I go about this view. I am just a believer. But my concern about the view is that they deny the existence or the rise of a modern day 21 Century antichrist. I would like to know what Christians think about this view via the following question (or scenario) I posed.


QUESTION:

Lets say for example a world leader arose out of the E.U. He ultimately asked people to accept a mark or an rfid chip implant or they would be unable to buy or sell. This of course like everything in endtimes (my views not yours) came in the name of peace and security. So if I understand correctly, you would gladly accept this mark as you would be convinced there is no biblical Antichrist. What would your response to that be ?? Would you accept this mark knowing that if you didn't you would not be able to buy or sell? I ask you to please tell me what would you do if you were faced with this exact scenario? According to you there are no future signs or warnings. So no matter how much modern day events seem to match the events of Revelation you should have no worries.

Christians who have the future view I guess you call it ? Would not accept this mark as they have been properly educated and warned from scripture that this is the mark of the beast. But you would?

ANSWER:

None of those things would have anything to do with Bible prophecy! Furthermore, NBF--"Israel" today is NOT the Israel of the OT. That nation is gone forever! If Islamic nations go to war against modern, nonbiblical Israel, it would simply be a war between two godless nations. Any world leader who might emerge is NOT Antichrist since Antichrist and the spirit of Antichrist were OT entities. It could be said that any leader today who opposes Christ is "Antichrist"--but he would still not be anyone fulfilling Bible prophecy.

Can I not reject the mark of a tyrant even in our day although He is not THE supposed Antichrist of the Bible. Why would I receive a mark from such a man? Christ is still My Lord. I still serve Him. Why would I do something that displeases Him? Your hypothetical situation has nothing to do with Bible prophecy. Why should I have no worries? There are still great evils in this world--some of which are exemplified by those in power in the US! Because no biblical "Antichrist" is doing such wicked things does not mean I wouldn't be concerned about it. I don't get your point here. Whatever the situation, I would hope that I would do that which is pleasing to my Lord! What does Antichrist have to do with that?

QUESTION

It is very relevant. I suggest that some of your views could actually commit people to hell if we believe them.

If I come to Christ as a newcomer under this view, I would believe there is no such thing as a modern day “biblical Antichrist†in your own words. So if such a leader was to arise out of ten nations and he matched every single criteria that describes the Antichrist in the bible (I believe there are 46) I should have no worries because it’s just a coincidence. He won’t come as a tyrant (He will have a mouth speaking great things. Very boastful - Daniel 7:8). In the name of peace and security.

So when this charismatic world leader who says all the right things, and everyone just loves him starts talking about a wonderful security system that will protect us from terrorism, identity fraud, counterfeit currency, safer travel at our airports and borders, a perfect cashless society. When he pitches the mark in the name of peace and security anyone under your views should would be safe to accept the mark because there is no such thing as a biblical antichrist in the 21 Century .

If anyone accepts this mark they are condemned and you lead with way with your view. What if a man shows up out of nowhere and declares himself god or the son of god, I guess he could be then as we need not pay any attention to the bible warning us of false prophets in end times or the modern day.

My friend you need to open your eyes and pray for guidance. You need to read the bible and pay attention to the media and current events. The evidence is overwhelming and you should be ashamed in fact you should be repenting. Your eyes are closed. I mean you no disrespect but I don’t believe a person like you would ever see heaven.

Your view is a gamble and when you open your mouth and put it in writing it has the capability to condemn people to hell. This is the only real thing that concerns me about this view.

85% of the bible was prophetic when it was written OT and NT. Prophecy after prophecy has already been fulfilled. The evidence on what is happening to our world right now is overwhelming, the probability in the millions as it relates to prophecy. . You deny everything a modern day Israel, the third temple, the antichrist, the war of Ezekiel 38-39.

The world is slowing turning against Israel we can see how this can be now. Russian has already assisted Iran in obtaining nuclear weapons the relationship between the two countries is a matter of public record. I suspect we will be seeing Putin asking Russia to Unite with the Islamic nations to go to war against Israel very soon or at least in this lifetime. What will you say then ??

A third temple is being built. We see the signs of a one world religion from the UN Alliance of Civilizations, New Age is being preached. A centralized banking system is already set up. Time magazine just reported on the New World Order.

God gave us prophecy so we may see the signs and educate ourselves.

Not only is modern prophecy being fullfiled. The fullfilment of prophecies are be fulfilled in order almost to the point we know what's going to happen next IN ORDER. Let me say that again an actual sequence of events being fullfiled right in front of us IN ORDER. Are you blind?

Just how far will you take this view where you see modern day events unfold as it relates to prophecy and just ignore it and call it all a big coincidence. Because that is exactly what your saying while one prophecy is fullfiled after the other, one big coincidence.

If you were sitting in the middle of the battle Armageddon with bullets flying by your ears would you believe it then? Like what has to happen for you to register current events with biblical prophecy?

Brother/s please open your eyes !!

NBF: Again, you question my salvation because I don't get misled by current events which do NOT fulfill Bible prophecy. What makes you think that I don't have the right to tell you to "open yours eyes, NBF?" Neither I, nor any man, condemns anyone to hell! You are the one trying to condemn me to hell, NBF--and unjustly. My Lord knows my heart!

Please, let's look at the Scriptures and not current events.

What is the time frame for the Book of Revelation? You, like other dispensationalists, pose your questions and insist that we deal with them. I don't care whether you agree with me or not, NBF, but you MUST deal with the multitude of time indicators that give justifiable reason for preterists to believe as they do. They are not reasoned away or negated by a desperate, incorrect, ignorant appeal to 2 Peter 3:8. That is a cop out and a gross misrepresentation of Peter's meaning!

Was not John shown those things which were in his day to "shortly" take place? Was he not told that the time was then "near?" Stop looking at Scripture through the lens of your local newspaper. You MUST deal with these words, NBF, in order to have any credibility. Furturists love to accuse Preterists of over spiritualizing, but while they are pointing their fingers at us, three fingers are pointing back at them! If you want to take such pride in literalism, BE literal. Soon means soon means soon. But futurists don't like that--it doesn't fit their scheme. So what do they do? Do they accept the clear meanings of these words and adjust their preconceived ideas to harmonize with them? No, I beg to be excused. They search every nook and cranny of the Bible to find even one verse that when taken out of context seems to support their beliefs.

To whom was Jesus clearly speaking in Matthew 24, NBF? Can you answer a simple question? To whom was Jesus speaking when He said "when YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . ." (Mat. 24:15)? What generation did Jesus mean when He said "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Mat. 24:34). Do not distort and malign Jesus' words so that they fit your eschatological system. Jesus always, always, always, meant His contemporaries when He used that expression. Look them up, NBF--there are at least 20 of them! I caution you, however, that such an endeavor would constitute Bible study! What generation did Jesus mean in Matthew 23 when He was speaking to those Jews upon whom He pronounced the woes and whom he judged guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth? Did He not mean those of that generation when He said "all these things will come upon THIS generation." Is not the meaning of "this generation" the same in both Matthew 23 and 24? Yes!

Whom did Paul intend to include when he said "WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET" (1 Cor. 15)? Whom did Paul intend to include when he said "the dead in Christ shall rise first, then WE who are alive, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thes. 4). Who are the "we" and the "you" of 1 Thessalonians 3:11-13? Paul clearly prayed that God would direct his way to THEM. Paul prayed that God would make THEM increase "in love to one another and to all," just as he, Paul, did to THEM. Why? So that God would establish THEIR hearts "blameless in holiness" before Him. When? AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WITH ALL HIS ANGELS! THEY themselves, while still alive, were to be found blameless at the coming of Christ with His angels! That is the CONTEXT!

To whom was Jesus speaking in John 14? Was He speaking concerning us first and foremost? NO! Those disciples right there with Him were troubled because He was going to leave THEM. No other disciple of Christ has ever fit that situation, NBF. None! When have you ever been troubled in your heart because Jesus was leaving you after you had spent years on this earth with Him personally, living day and night with Him and being personally discipled by Him? When, NBF? NEVER! THEY were troubled in their hearts in a way no other disciples have ever been troubled. It was to THEM specifically that Jesus said "Let not YOUR hearts be troubled. He was leaving THEM to prepare a place for THEM. He would COME AGAIN to receive THEM unto Himself so that where He was THEY could be also. That is the context, like it or not! Has He prepared a place for us as well? Yes, but they were the first! Frankly, I am beyond sick and tired of the self-centered approach to the Scriptures by dispensationalists.

To whom did Jesus say "YOU will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES" (Mat. 10:23)? To whom, NBF? What saith the Scriptures? Did Jesus not say that directly to the Twelve before He sent THEM out to the lost sheep of Israel? Do you care about context at all--or just the newspapers and tv newscasts? All the things Jesus spoke about to those TWELVE were to happen to THEM. This truth is not negated simply because Christians today might suffer "similar" things. THEY were not to finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man came--to THEM!
I am sorry that this is not ALL about YOU!

What about Matthew 16:28, NBF? Does context matter to you there? Who was not going to die before THEY saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom? Who, NBF? Please give me a solid reason why I and other preterists are guilty here? Are we not employing the literalism you dispies charge us of lacking? The words are clear, yet you would rather believe Katie Couric and the nightly news.

What about all the many "yous" (there are at least 20) found in Matthew 24? Jesus was obviously addressing those disciples right there with Him. Do you not see that? Did He not look straight at THEM and tell THEM that THEY would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet? About how many abominations of desolation did Daniel speak, NBF? Did not Jesus directly tell THEM that THEY would hear of wars and rumors of wars and that there would be earthquakes and famines and pestilences? Didn't He, NBF? Are there wars and rumors of wars today? Of course. But THEY are not THOSE wars and rumors of wars that Jesus had in mind when He directly addressed THOSE disciples! Whom did Jesus forewarn concerning these things? Did He not say directly to THOSE disciples right there with Him--"I have warned YOU ahead of time?" Didn't He, NBF? Am I being too literal for you?

Did He not exhort THEM to recognize the signs of His coming as easily as THEY recognized the signs of summer in the budding of the fig tree (the FIG tree and ALL the trees)? Did He not clearly then give them the time frame for these things when He said "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place?" Did He not tell THEM to watch and be ready? Didn't He, NBF? Is this not literalism dispensationalists pride themselves on?

When Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians, did he not tell THEM that God was going to give THEM rest from THEIR tribulation AT HIS APPEARING (2 Thes. 1)? Isn't that what Paul said--
literally? Did not Paul further tell THEM that God was also going to give the exact tribulation and trouble to THOSE VERY ONES who were then persecuting THEM--AT HIS APPEARING? Didn't he, NBF? Again, am I being too literal? Furthermore, if THEY (and they did) knew the restrainer of the man of sin then THEY also knew the man of sin. The restrainer and the man of sin were contemporaneous. The restrainer cannot restrain someone who is not there! But dispies won't accept plain words because they cannot fit them into their system. In spite of what Paul's words plainly teach, they find objections. "When did this happen? And when did that happen?" Ad nauseum! What do the Scriptures say? You MUST fit your system into them. If your system doesn't fit, gladly and joyfully DISCARD it. It is false! If the Scriptures plainly teach that something was to happen in that first-century world but you cannot see its fulfillment, that is not the fault of the Scriptures. It is the fault of your "eyes."

There will NOT arise a beast such as that depicted in the Revelation--a book which contains those things which were in John's day to "shortly" take place because the time for fulfillment was THEN near.
I don't care who comes along who "seems" to resemble him. There have always been tyrants and there will always be tyrants. If anyone comes along who demands that we worship him or we will not eat, then I will not eat. I trust that would be the response of all believers in such a situation. But such a scenario can never be a fulfillment of already fulfilled prophecy.

You dare to question my salvation. :naughty Ask yourself this, NBF? Do you boldly and unjustifiably question my salvation because I do not present the Scriptures in their context as they were written (as I thoroughly have done in this post) or because I disagree with YOU? Preterists and others must NEVER question the beliefs of dispensationalists, even though dispies employ "newspaper exegesis" instead of in-depth Bible study, because to do so brings into question one's very salvation. I guess it is dispensational doctrine which we must align with in order to feel secure in Christ and not the very words of Christ Himself! I choose to deal with Bible study in these threads. If you would care to do that, I will be glad to continue communicating with you, otherwise, everything becomes opinions. I'm not into that!

Got Scripture?

Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Hi NBF,

Whatever your views are regarding the specifics of end-time prophecy, it's probably wise NOT to engage full-preterists in discussion; because their doctrine is of Satan. If you do decide to contest them, make sure your sword is ultra sharp, and you have prayed for guidance, because the full-preterist doctrine is very cunning, and its proponents have mastered the art of twisting Scripture. An exact parallel to this doctrine would be the HIV virus. The HIV virus attacks and mutates the immune system, the VERY THING needed for the body to protect itself against foreign diseases. The full-preterist doctrine attacks and mutates the Scriptures, the VERY THING needed for "the body" to protect itself against foreign doctrines. Pretty tricksy huh? I hate to admit it, but Satan is very clever, and he is preying upon unwary Christians in the subtlest of ways. This is not your ordinary false teaching; this one is straight from the top, or rather, "the bottom".

These very people are mentioned in the Scriptures. They are the very people Paul warned us about in 2 Timothy 2:16-18; "Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and overthrow the faith of some". They are the scoffers mentioned in 2 Peter 3:3-4 who say: "for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation", who blatantly deny that "the heavens and earth that now exist are, by the same Word, stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment". They are the deceitful workers in 2 Corinthians 11; who come "preaching another Jesus, disguised as ministers of righteousness". They are the false Christ's Jesus warned us about who say; "Lo, here is Christ, or there - behold, he is in the secret chambers".

This is exactly what full-preterists do - claiming the resurrection is already past, scoffing, claiming Christ has already come. How much more obvious do the warnings in the Bible have to be? Jesus said; BELIEVE THEM NOT!

 

[nonbelieverforums]

My issue is it's a gamble. What if your wrong and others follow you into the trap of not worrying about things to do with endtimes. Not being wearing of a single thing in end times. Your views deliever people into the hands of the antichrist and tells them not to worry it's all a coincidence. Ignore the signs, ignore the symbols.

To suggest that we should not be keeping uptodate date with the developments in our world by not reading or paying attention to the news is silly. I pay attention to what is happening in Israel everyday, I keep an eye on the New Age movement, I watch the developments in Europe and the E.U.
and I read and study the bible.

For example:

Exactly 2,485.479 years from 536 B.C. is the prophetic date of May 15, 1948. On this date, Israel became a nation just as promised in the Bible (Isaiah 66:8). The return of the Jews to Israel is the key to Bible prophecy. Israel is the timepiece by which we can watch and know that Jesus is coming soon.

I read about the "event" in the media and the prophecy in the bible. About a zillion christians believe this to be one of many prophcies fulfilled. What is your response to the above.


Do you believe in prophecy as it does not relate to end times? i.e. the birth of Christ, the Crucification of Christ, other verses in the bible that were prophesied but not relating to Endtime events?


Fulfilled Bible Prophecies

Gen. 3:15.....Seed of a woman (virgin birth).....Luke 1:35, Mt 1:18-20
Gen. 3:15.....He will bruise Satan's head.....Heb. 2:14, 1 Jn. 3:18
Gen. 5:24....The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated....Mk. 6:19
Gen. 9:26,27...The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem...Lu. 3:36
Gen. 12:3...As Abraham's seed, will bless all nations...Acts. 3:25,26
Gen. 12:7...The Promise made to Abraham's Seed...Gal. 3:16
Gen. 14:18...A priest after Melchizedek...Heb. 6:20
Gen. 14:18........A King also........Heb. 7:2
Gen. 14:18...The Last Supper foreshadowed...Mt. 26:26-29
Gen. 17:19.......The Seed of Isaac.......Rom. 9:7
Gen. 22:8...The Lamb of God promised...Jn. 1:29
Gen. 22:18...As Isaac's seed, will bless all nations...Gal. 3:16
Gen.26:2-5..The Seed of Isaac promised as the Redeemer..Heb.11:18
Gen. 49:10...The time of His coming...Lu. 2:1-7; Gal. 4:4
Gen. 49:10.......The Seed of Judah.......Lu. 3:33
Gen. 49:10......Called Shiloh or One Sent......Jn. 17:3
Gen. 49:10...To come before Judah lost identity...Jn. 11:47-52
Gen. 49:10...To Him shall the obedience of the people be...Jn. 10:16
Ex. 3:13,14........The Great "I Am".......Jn. 4:26
Ex. 12:5...A Lamb without blemish...1 Pet. 1:19
Ex. 12:13...The blood of the Lamb saves from wrath...Rom. 5:8
Ex. 12:21-27...Christ is our Passover...1 Cor. 5;7
Ex. 12:46...Not a bone of the Lamb to be broken...Jn. 19:31-36
Ex. 15:2...His exaltation predicted as Yeshua...Acts 7:55,56
Ex. 15:11...His Character-Holiness...Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27
Ex. 17:6...The Spiritual Rock of Israel...1 Cor. 10;4
Ex. 33:19...His Character-Merciful...Lu. 1:72
Lev.14:11..The leper cleansed-Sign to priesthood..Lu.5:12-14; Acts 6:7
Lev.16:15-17...Prefigures Christ's once-for-all death...Heb. 9:7-14
Lev.16:27...Suffering outside the Camp...Mt. 27:33; Heb. 13:11, 12
Lev.17:11...The Blood-the life of the flesh...Mt. 26;28; Mk. 10:45
Lev.17:11...It is the blood that makes atonement...1 Jn. 3:14-18
Lev.23:36-37...The Drink-offering: "If any man thirst." ..Jn. 19:31-36
Num. 9:12...Not a bone of Him broken...John 19:31-36
Num. 21:9...The serpent on a pole-Christ lifted up...Jn. 3:14-18
Num. 24:17...Time: "I shall see him, but not now."...Gal. 4:4
Deut. 18:15..."This is of a truth that prophet."...Jn. 6:14
Deut. 18:15-16..."Had ye believed Moses, ye would believe me."...Jn. 5:45-47
Deut. 18:18...Sent by the Father to speak His word...Jn. 8:28, 29
Deut. 18:19...Whoever will not hear must bear his sin...Jn. 12:15,
Deut. 21:23...Cursed is he that hangs on a tree...Gal. 3:10-13
Ruth 4:4-9...Christ, our kinsman, has redeemed us...Eph. 1:3-7
1 Sam. 2:10...Shall be an anointed King to the Lord...Mt. 28:18; Jn. 12:15
2 Sam. 7:12...David's Seed...Mt. 1:1
2 Sam. 7:14a...The Son of God... Lu. 1:32
2 Sam. 7:16...David's house established forever...Lu. 3:31; Rev. 22:16
2 Ki. 2:11...The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated...Lu. 24:51
1 Chr. 17:11...David's Seed...Mt. 1:1; 9:27
1 Chr. 17:12, 13a...To reign on David's throne forever...Lu. 1:32, 33
1 Chr. 17:13a..."I will be His Father, He...my Son."...Heb. 1:5
Job 19:23-27...The Resurrection predicted...Jn. 5:24-29
Psa. 2:1-3...The enmity of kings foreordained...Acts 4:25-28
Psa. 2:2...To own the title, Anointed (Christ)...Acts 2:36
Ps. 2:6...His Character-Holiness...Jn. 8:46; Rev. 3:7
Ps. 2:6...To own the title King...Mt. 2:2
Ps. 2:7...Declared the Beloved Son...Mt. 3;17
Psa. 2:7, 8...The Crucifixion and Resurrection intimated...Acts 13:29-33
Psa. 2:12...Life comes through faith in Him...Jn. 20:31
Psa. 8:2...The mouths of babes perfect His praise...Mt. 21:16
Psa. 8:5, 6...His humiliation and exaltation...Lu. 24:50-53; 1 Cor. 15:27
Psa. 16:10...Was not to see corruption...Acts 2:31
Psa. 16:9-11...Was to arise from the dead...Jn. 20:9
Psa. 17;15...The resurrection predicted...Lu. 24:6
Psa. 22:1...Forsaken because of sins of others...2 Cor. 5:21
Psa. 22:1...Words spoken from Calvary, "My God..." Mk. 15:34
Psa. 22:2...Darkness upon Calvary...Mt. 27:45
Psa. 22:7...They shoot out the lip and shake the head...Mt. 27:39
Psa. 22:8.." He trusted in God, let Him deliver Him "...Mt. 27:43
Psa. 22:9......Born the Saviour......Lu. 2:7
Psa. 22:14...Died of a broken (ruptured) heart...Jn. 19:34
Psa. 22:14,15...Suffered agony on Calvary...Mk. 15:34-37
Psa. 22:15........He thirsted........Jn. 19:28
Psa. 22:16...They pierced His hands and His feet....Jn. 19:34,37;20:27
Psa. 22:17,18...Stripped Him before the stares of men...Lu. 23:34,35
Psa. 22:18.....They parted His garments.....Jn. 19:23,24
Psa. 22:20,21...He committed Himself to God...Lu.23:46
Psa. 22:20,21..Satanic power bruising the Redeemer's heel..Heb. 2:14
Psa. 22:22.....His Resurrection declared.....Jn. 20:17
Psa. 22:27...He shall be the governor of the nations...Col 1:16
Psa. 22:31......"It is finished"......Jn. 19:30
Psa. 23:1...."I am the Good Shepherd"....Jn. 10:11
Psa. 24:3......His exaltation predicted......Acts 1:11; Phil. 2:9
Psa. 30:3......His resurrection predicted......Acts 2:32
Psa. 31:5..."Into thy hands I commit my spirit"...Lu. 23:46
Psa. 31:11...His acquaintances fled from Him...Mk. 14:50
Psa. 31:13...They took counsel to put Him to death...Jn. 11:53
Psa. 31:14,15..." He trusted in God, let Him deliver him"...Mt. 27:43
Psa. 34:20.....Not a bone of Him broken.....Jn 19:31-36
Psa. 35:11....False witnesses rose up against Him....Mt. 26:59
Psa. 35:19...He was hated without a cause...Jn. 15:25
Psa. 38:11.....His friends stood afar off.....Lu. 23:49
Psa. 40:2-5...The joy of His resurrection predicted...Jn. 20:20
Psa. 40:6-8....His delight-the will of the Father....Jn. 4:34
Psa. 40:9....He was to preach the Righteousness in Israel....Mt. 4:17
Psa. 40:14...Confronted by adversaries in the Garden...Jn.
Psa. 41:9.....Betrayed by a familiar friend.....Jn. 13:18
Psa. 45:2...Words of Grace come from His lips...Lu. 4:22
Psa. 45:6...To own the title, God or Elohim...Heb. 1:8
Psa. 45:7...A special anointing by the Holy Spirit...Mt.3:16; Heb.1:9
Psa. 45:7,8...Called the Christ (Messiah or Anointed)...Lu. 2:11
Psa. 55:12-14...Betrayed by a friend, not an enemy...Jn. 13:18
Psa. 55:15...Unrepentant death of the Betrayer...Mt. 27:3-5; Acts 1:16-19
Psa. 68:18...To give gifts to men...Eph. 4:7-16
Psa. 68:18...Ascended into Heaven...Lu. 24:51
Psa. 69:4...Hated without a cause...Jn. 15:25
Psa. 69:8...A stranger to own brethren...Lu. 8;20,21
Psa. 69:9...Zealous for the Lord's House...Jn. 2:17
Psa. 69:14-20...Messiah's anguish of soul before crucifixion...Mt. 26:36-45
Psa. 69:20..."My soul is exceeding sorrowful."...Mt. 26:38
Psa. 69:21...Given vinegar in thirst...Mt. 27:34
Psa. 69:26...The Saviour given and smitten by God...Jn. 17:4; 18:11
Psa. 72:10,11...Great persons were to visit Him...Mt. 2:1-11
Psa. 72:16...The corn of wheat to fall into the Ground...Jn. 12:24
Psa. 72:17...His name, Yinon, will produce offspring...Jn. 1:12,13
Psa. 72:17...All nations shall be blessed by Him...Acts 2:11,12,41
Psa. 78:1.2...He would teach in parables...Mt. 13:34-35
Psa. 78:2b...To speak the Wisdom of God with authority...Mt. 7:29
Psa. 88:8...They stood afar off and watched...Lu. 23:49
Psa. 89:27...Emmanuel to be higher than earthly kings...Lu. 1:32,33
Psa. 89:35-37...David's Seed, throne, kingdom endure forever...Lu. 1:32,33
Psa. 89:36-37...His character-Faithfulness...Rev. 1:5
Psa. 90:2...He is from everlasting (Micah 5:2)...Jn. 1:1
Psa. 91:11,12...Identified as Messianic; used to tempt Christ...Lu. 4;10,11
Psa. 97:9...His exaltation predicted...Acts 1:11;Eph. 1:20
Psa. 100:5...His character-Goodness...Mt. 19:16,17
Psa. 102:1-11...The Suffering and Reproach of Calvary...Jn. 21:16-30
Psa. 102:25-27...Messiah is the Preexistent Son...Heb. 1:10-12
Psa. 109:25...Ridiculed...Mt. 27:39
Psa. 110:1...Son of David...Mt. 22:43
Psa. 110:1...To ascend to the right-hand of the Father...Mk.16:19
Psa. 110:1...David's son called Lord...Mt. 22:44,45
Psa. 110:4...A priest after Melchizedek's order...Heb. 6:20
Psa. 112:4...His character-Compassionate, Gracious, et al... Mt. 9;36
Psa. 118:17,18...Messiah's Resurrection assured...Lu. 24:5-7;1 Cor. 15:20
Psa. 118:22,23...The rejected stone is Head of the corner...Mt. 21:42,43
Psa. 118:26a...The Blessed One presented to Israel...Mt. 21:9
Psa. 118:26b...To come while Temple standing...Mt. 21;12-15
Psa. 132:11...The Seed of David (the fruit of His Body)...Lu. 1:32
Psa. 138:1-6...The supremacy of David's Seed amazes kings... Mt. 2:2-6
Psa. 147:3,6...The earthly ministry of Christ described...Lu. 4:18
Psa. 1:23...He will send the Spirit of God... Jn. 16;7
Song. 5;16...The altogether lovely One...Jn. 1:17
Isa. 6:1...When Isaiah saw His glory... Jn. 12:40-41
Isa. 6:9-10...Parables fall on deaf ears...Mt. 13:13-15
Isa. 6:9-12...Blinded to Christ and deaf to His words...Acts. 28:23-29
Isa. 7:14...To be born of a virgin...Lu. 1:35
Isa. 7:14...To be Emmanuel-God with us... Mt. 1:18-23
Isa. 8:8...Called Emmanuel...Mt. 28:20
Isa. 8:14...A stone of stumbling, a Rock of offense... 1 Pet. 2:8
Isa. 9:1,2...His ministry to begin in Galilee...Mt. 4:12-17
Isa. 9:6...A child born-Humanity...Lu. 1:31
Isa. 9:6...A Son given-Deity...Lu. 1:32; Jn. 1;14; 1 Tim. 3:16
Isa. 9:6...Declared to be the Son of God with power... Rom. 1:3,4
Isa. 9:6...The Wonderful One, Peleh...Lu. 4:22
Isa. 9:6...The Counsellor, Yaatz...Mt. 13:54
Isa. 9:6...The Mighty God, El Gibor...Mt. 11:20
Isa. 9:6...The Everlasting Father, Avi Adth...Jn. 8:58
Isa. 9:6...The Prince of Peace, Sar Shalom...Jn . 16:33
Isa. 9:7...To establish an everlasting kingdom...Lu. 1:32-33
Isa. 9:7...His Character-Just...Jn. 5:30
Isa. 9:7...No end to his Government, Throne, and Peace...Lu. 1:32-33
Isa. 11:1...Called a Nazarene-the Branch, Netzer...Mt. 2:23
Isa. 11:1...A rod out of Jesse-Son of Jesse...Lu. 3:23,32
Isa. 11:2...The anointed One by the Spirit...Mt. 3;16,17
Isa. 11:2...His Character-Wisdom, Understanding, et al....Jn. 4:4-26
Isa. 11:4...His Character-Truth...Jn. 14:6
Isa. 11:10...The Gentiles seek Him...Jn. 12:18-21
Isa. 12:2...Called Jesus-Yeshua(salvation)...Mt. 1:21
Isa. 25:8...The Resurrection predicted...I Cor. 15:54
Isa. 26:19...His power of Resurrection predicted...Jn. 11:43,44
Isa. 28:16...The Messiah is the precious corner stone...Acts 4:11,12
Isa. 29:13...He indicated hypocritical obedience to His Word...Mt. 15:7-9
Isa. 29:14...The wise are confounded by the Word...I Cor. 1:18-31
Isa. 32:2...A Refuge-A man shall be a hiding place...Mt. 23:37
Isa. 35:4...He will come and save you...Mt. 1:21
Isa. 35:5...To have a ministry of miracles...Mt. 11:4-6
Isa. 40:3,4...Preceded by forerunner...Jn. 1:23
Isa. 40:9..."Behold your God."...Jn. 1:36;19:14
Isa. 40:11...A shepherd-compassionate life-giver...Jn. 10:10-18
Isa. 42:1-4...The Servant-as a faithful, patient redeemer... Mt.12:18-21
Isa. 42:2...Meek and lowly... Mt. 11:28-30
Isa. 42:3...He brings hope for the hopeless... Jn. 4
Isa. 42:4...The nations shall wait on His teachings... Jn. 12:20-26
Isa. 42:6...The Light (salvation) of the Gentiles...Lu. 2:32
Isa. 42:1,6...His is a Worldwide compassion... Mt. 28:19,20
Isa. 42:7...Blind eyes opened... Jn. 9:25-38
Isa. 43:11...He is the only Saviour... Acts. 4:12
Isa. 44:3...He will send the Spirit of God... Jn. 16:7,13
Isa. 45:23...He will be the Judge... Jn. 5:22;Rom. 14:11
Isa. 48:12...The First and the Last...Jn. 1:30;Rev. 1:8,17
Isa. 48:17...He came as a Teacher...Jn. 3:2
Isa. 49:1...Called from the womb-His humanity...Mt. 1:18
Isa. 49:5...A Servant from the womb...Lu. 1:31;Phil. 2:7
Isa. 49:6...He is Salvation for Israel...Lu. 2:29-32
Isa. 49:6...He is the Light of the Gentiles...Acts 13:47
Isa. 49:6...He is Salvation unto the ends of the earth... Acts 15:7-18
Isa. 49:7...He is despised of the Nation... Jn. 8:48-49
Isa. 50:3...Heaven is clothed in black at His humiliation... Lu. 23:44,45
Isa. 50:4...He is a learned counsellor for the weary... Mt. 11:28,29
Isa. 50:5...The Servant bound willingly to obedience... Mt. 26:39
Isa. 50:6a..."I gave my back to the smiters."... Mt. 27:26
Isa. 50:6b...He was smitten on the cheeks... Mt. 26:67
Isa. 50:6c...He was spat upon... Mt. 27:30
Isa. 52:7...To publish good tidings of peace... Lu. 4:14,15
Isa. 52:13...The Servant exalted...Acts 1:8-11; Eph. 1:19-22
Isa. 52:13...Behold, My Servant... Mt. 17:5; Phil. 2:5-8
Isa. 52:14...The Servant shockingly abused... Lu. 18:31-34; Mt. 26:67,68
Isa. 52:15...Nations startled by message of the Servant... Rom. 15:18-21
Isa. 52:15...His blood shed to make atonement for all... Rev. 1:5
Isa. 53:1...His people would not believe Him... Jn. 12:37-38
Isa. 53:2a...He would grow up in a poor family.... Lu. 2:7
Isa. 53:2b...Appearance of an ordinary man... Phil. 2:7-8
Isa. 53:3a...Despised.... Lu. 4:28-29
Isa. 53:3b...Rejected... Mt. 27:21-23
Isa. 53:3c...Great sorrow and grief... Lu. 19:41-42
Isa. 53:3d...Men hide from being associated with Him... Mk. 14:50-52
Isa. 53:4a...He would have a healing ministry... Lu. 6:17-19
Isa. 53:4b...He would bear the sins of the world... 1 Pet. 2:24
Isa. 53:4c...Thought to be cursed by God... Mt. 27:41-43
Isa. 53:5a...Bears penalty for mankind's transgressions... Lu. 23:33
Isa. 53:5b...His sacrifice would provide peace between man and God... Col. 1:20
Isa. 53:5c...His back would be whipped... Mt. 27:26
Isa. 53:6a...He would be the sin-bearer for all mankind...Gal. 1:4
Isa. 53:6b...God's will that He bear sin for all mankind... 1 Jn. 4:10
Isa. 53:7a...Oppressed and afflicted... Mt. 27:27-31
Isa. 53:7b...Silent before his accusers... Mt. 27:12-14
Isa. 53:7c...Sacrificial lamb... Jn. 1:29
Isa. 53:8a...Confined and persecuted... Mt. 26:47-27:31
Isa. 53:8b...He would be judged... Jn. 18:13-22
Isa. 53:8c...Killed.... Mt. 27:35
Isa. 53:8d...Dies for the sins of the world... 1 Jn. 2:2
Isa. 53:9a...Buried in a rich man's grave... Mt. 27:57
Isa. 53:9b...Innocent and had done no violence... Mk. 15:3
Isa. 53:9c...No deceit in his mouth... Jn. 18:38
Isa. 53:10a...God's will that He die for mankind... Jn. 18:11
Isa. 53:10b...An offering for sin... Mt. 20:28
Isa. 53:10c...Resurrected and live forever.... Mk. 16:16
Isa. 53:10d...He would prosper... Jn. 17:1-5
Isa. 53:11a...God fully satisfied with His suffering... Jn. 12:27
Isa. 53:11b...God's servant... Rom. 5:18-19
Isa. 53:11c...He would justify man before God... Rom. 5:8-9
Isa. 53:11d...The sin-bearer for all mankind... Heb. 9:28
Isa. 53:12a...Exalted by God because of his sacrifice... Mt. 28:18
Isa. 53:12b...He would give up his life to save mankind... Lu. 23:46
Isa. 53:12c...Grouped with criminals... Lu. 23:32
Isa. 53:12d...Sin-bearer for all mankind... 2 Cor. 5:21
Isa. 53:12e...Intercede to God in behalf of mankind... Lu. 23:34
Isa. 55:3...Resurrected by God... Acts 13:34
Isa. 55:4...A witness... Jn. 18:37
Isa. 59:15-16a...He would come to provide salvation... Jn. 6:40
Isa. 59:15-16b...Intercessor between man and God... Mt. 10:32
Isa. 59:20...He would come to Zion as their Redeemer... Lu. 2:38
Isa. 61:1-2a...The Spirit of God upon him... Mt. 3:16-17
Isa. 61:1-2b...The Messiah would preach the good news... Lu. 4:17-21
Isa. 61:1-2c...Provide freedom from the bondage of sin and death... Jn. 8:31-32
Isa. 61:1-2...Proclaim a period of grace... Jn. 5:24
Jer.23:5-6a...Descendant of David...Lu. 3:23-31
Jer. 23:5-6b...The Messiah would be God... Jn. 13:13
Jer. 23:5-6c...The Messiah would be both God and Man... 1 Tim. 3:16
Jer. 31:22...Born of a virgin... Mt. 1:18-20
Jer. 31:31...The Messiah would be the new covenant... Mt. 26:28
Jer. 33:14-15...Descendant of David... Lu. 3:23-31
Eze.17:22-24...Descendant of David... Lk. 3:23-31
Eze.34:23-24...Descendant of David... Mt. 1:1
Dan. 7:13-14a...He would ascend into heaven... Acts 1:9-11
Dan. 7:13-14b...Highly exalted... Eph. 1:20-22
Dan. 7:13-14c...His dominion would be everlasting... Lu. 1:31-33
Dan. 9:24a...To make an end to sins... Gal. 1:3-5
Dan. 9:24b...He would be holy... Lu. 1:35
Dan. 9:25...Announced to his people 483 years, to the exact day, after the decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem... Jn. 12:12-13
Dan. 9:26a...Killed... Mt. 27:35
Dan. 9:26b...Die for the sins of the world... Heb. 2:9
Dan. 9:26c...Killed before the destruction of the temple... Mt. 27:50-51
Dan. 10:5-6...Messiah in a glorified state... Rev. 1:13-16
Hos. 13:14...He would defeat death... 1 Cor. 15:55-57
Joel 2:32...Offer salvation to all mankind... Rom. 10:12-13
Mic. 5:2a...Born in Bethlehem... Mt. 2:1-2
Mic. 5:2b...God's servant... Jn. 15:10
Mic. 5:2c...From everlasting... Jn. 8:58
Hag. 2:6-9...He would visit the second Temple... Lu. 2:27-32
Hag. 2:23...Descendant of Zerubbabel... Lu. 3:23-27
Zech. 3:8...God's servant... Jn. 17:4
Zech. 6:12-13...Priest and King... Heb. 8:1
Zech. 9:9a...Greeted with rejoicing in Jerusalem... Mt. 21:8-10
Zech. 9:9b...Beheld as King... Jn. 12:12-13
Zech. 9:9c...The Messiah would be just... Jn. 5:30
Zech. 9:9d...The Messiah would bring salvation... Luke 19:10
Zech. 9:9e...The Messiah would be humble... Mt. 11:29
Zech. 9:9f...Presented to Jerusalem riding on a donkey... Mt. 21:6-9
Zech. 10:4...The cornerstone... Eph. 2:20
Zech. 11:4-6a...At His coming, Israel to have unfit leaders... Mt. 23:1-4
Zech. 11:4-6b...Rejection causes God to remove His protection.. Lu. 19:41-44
Zech. 11:4-6c...Rejected in favor of another king... Jn. 19:13-15
Zech. 11:7...Ministry to "poor," the believing remnant... Mt. 9:35-36
Zech. 11:8a...Unbelief forces Messiah to reject them... Mt. 23:33
Zech. 11:8b...Despised... Mt. 27:20
Zech. 11:9...Stops ministering to the those who rejected Him... Mt. 13:10-11
Zech. 11:10-11a...Rejection causes God to remove protection... Lu. 19:41-44
Zech. 11:10-11b...The Messiah would be God... Jn. 14:7
Zech. 11:12-13a...Betrayed for thirty pieces of silver... Mt. 26:14-15
Zech. 11:12-13b...Rejected... Mt. 26:14-15
Zech. 11:12-13c...Thirty pieces of silver thrown into the house of the Lord... Mt. 27:3-5
Zech. 11:12-13d...The Messiah would be God... Jn. 12:45
Zech. 12:10a...The Messiah's body would be pierced... Jn. 19:34-37
Zech. 12:10b...The Messiah would be both God and man... Jn. 10:30
Zech. 12:10c...The Messiah would be rejected... Jn. 1:11
Zech. 13:7a...God's will He die for mankind... Jn. 18:11
Zech. 13:7b...A violent death... Mt. 27:35
Zech. 13:7c...Both God and man.. Jn. 14:9
Zech. 13:7d...Israel scattered as a result of rejecting Him... Mt. 26:31-56
Mal. 3:1a...Messenger to prepare the way for Messiah... Mt. 11:10
Mal. 3:1b...Sudden appearance at the temple... Mk. 11:15-16
Mal. 3:1c...Messenger of the new covenant... Lu. 4:43
Mal. 4:5...Forerunner in the spirit of Elijah... Mt. 3:1-2
Mal. 4:6...Forerunner would turn many to righteousness... Lu. 1:16-17

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Hi NBF,

Whatever your views are regarding the specifics of end-time prophecy, it's probably wise NOT to engage full-preterists in discussion; because their doctrine is of Satan. If you do decide to contest them, make sure your sword is ultra sharp, and you have prayed for guidance, because the full-preterist doctrine is very cunning, and its proponents have mastered the art of twisting Scripture. An exact parallel to this doctrine would be the HIV virus. The HIV virus attacks and mutates the immune system, the VERY THING needed for the body to protect itself against foreign diseases. The full-preterist doctrine attacks and mutates the Scriptures, the VERY THING needed for "the body" to protect itself against foreign doctrines. Pretty tricksy huh? I hate to admit it, but Satan is very clever, and he is preying upon unwary Christians in the subtlest of ways. This is not your ordinary false teaching; this one is straight from the top, or rather, "the bottom".

These very people are mentioned in the Scriptures. They are the very people Paul warned us about in 2 Timothy 2:16-18; "Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and overthrow the faith of some". They are the scoffers mentioned in 2 Peter 3:3-4 who say: "for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation", who blatantly deny that "the heavens and earth that now exist are, by the same Word, stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment". They are the deceitful workers in 2 Corinthians 11; who come "preaching another Jesus, disguised as ministers of righteousness". They are the false Christ's Jesus warned us about who say; "Lo, here is Christ, or there - behold, he is in the secret chambers".

This is exactly what full-preterists do - claiming the resurrection is already past, scoffing, claiming Christ has already come. How much more obvious do the warnings in the Bible have to be? Jesus said; BELIEVE THEM NOT!

Brother I had this exact same conversation with the pastor at my church learning as I go and he said close to the same thing, He said "Satainic" I didn't want to say this on a post as I figured I would get thrown off the site.

 

[Drew]

What about Matthew 16:28, NBF? Does context matter to you there? Who was not going to die before THEY saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom? Who, NBF? Please give me a solid reason why I and other preterists are guilty here? Are we not employing the literalism you dispies charge us of lacking? The words are clear, yet you would rather believe Katie Couric and the nightly news.

While I agree with you on this point, and am generally more of a "preterist" than many, I cannot go as far as you do, e.g. in respect to 1 Cor 15 (see below).

I think that Matthew 16:28 is indeed a reference to an event that is about to happen soon - the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. When Jesus is raised, His Kingship is initiated. This is not a reference to the second coming.

Whom did Paul intend to include when he said "WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET" (1 Cor. 15)? Whom did Paul intend to include when he said "the dead in Christ shall rise first, then WE who are alive, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thes. 4).

Do you really believe that the events of 1 Corinthians 15 do not lie in our future? I think that would be a very hard position to defend. Paul goes into great detail about the saints receivng a resurrection body like that Christ has already received. Surely you do not believe that this has already happened, do you?

I share your belief that many (likely most) Christians fail to understand that many of the prophecies made by Jesus and other New Testament writers have already been fulfilled. I am convinced, as I suspect you are as well, that much "end of the world" imagery used by Jesus (e.g. towards the end of Matthew) is not intended to be about the end of the world at all, but rather about more mundance events, such as the judgment on Israel in the form of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I would like to say two things for now:

1. Jesus has to be understood in all His Jewishness, as an eschatalogical prophet come to announce a new turn in the history of Israel. Too often, we extract Jesus from his context and see his pronouncements as timeless truths. This is, I suggest, not the way to understand Jesus.

2. Apocalyptic language - talk of the stars falling and moon turning red, etc have to be understood in their appropriate Biblical context. There are clear Old Testament examples of such "end of the world" language being used to describe, for example, the fall of Babylon. So things are not what they always seem. In fact, I ascribe to the view that such apocalyptic imagery is not intended to be taken literally but is rather a distinctly Jewish mode of literary expression - using such wild imagery for the purpose of ascribing theological significance to much more "common place" events. So, for example, people misread some New Testament material as denoting a future (i.e. in our future) apocalypse, when, in fact (I believe), such material really describes an imminent radical transformation to Israel's socio-political status.

Nevertheless, I do believe that the Scriptures do describe a yet-to-realized return of Jesus to consummate the Kingdom that has already broken into history.

 

[Drew]

Brother I had this exact same conversation with the pastor at my church learning as I go and he said close to the same thing, He said "Satainic" I didn't want to say this on a post as I figured I would get thrown off the site.

The "warning" of Osgiliath is not really constructive. If you stick around this site, you will notice that some try to assert the correctness of their view by demonizing others, not by engaging in collective discussion about the Scriptures. And no, Osgiliath, I am not singling you out - there are others who have made a veritable living off such rhetoric.

It is fine to disagree with Matthew24:34, but I suggest that you discuss the relevant texts, and not caricature him (or her) as some kind of Satanic monster.

 

[Osgiliath]

I'm only talking about the "doctrine" and its proponents in general Drew. Sometimes people think I'm talking about them "personally". I'm quite aware of the fact that some who advocate false teachings are not aware they are doing so, which is why I did not single anyone out in particular. I wish people would recognize the difference. And warning fellow Christians of false teaching is indeed VERY constructive. What do you think Jesus, Paul, and the prophets spent half of their time doing? Christianity isn't some trivial game of theology; it's a REALITY!

 

[Zero Link]

I'm only talking about the "doctrine" and its proponents in general Drew. Sometimes people think I'm talking about them "personally". I'm quite aware of the fact that some who advocate false teachings are not aware they are doing so, which is why I did not single anyone out in particular. I wish people would recognize the difference. And warning fellow Christians of false teaching is indeed VERY constructive. What do you think Jesus, Paul, and the prophets spent half of their time doing? Christianity isn't some trivial game of theology; it's a REALITY!

edit: I just read what I said and I sound like I was upset.. I'm not lol. I'm just questioning your stand for futurist because of your last post, where you stated preterist view is Satanic.


And just what makes you think your point of view is THE correct view? Because you have the scriptures that follows along what's going on in this world today and what's headed in our future? Or is it because a bunch of youtube videos and websites have made much sense to you? You do realize for the longest futurists have been setting dates, trying their hardest to mark what year will be the year Anti-Christ will come. They twisted the scriptures til it made sense in their point of view. You can say the same about preterists, but history can be proven if you do your studying. It's slightly harder to tell the future than it is to study the past.

And warning fellow Christians of false teaching is indeed VERY constructive.

Let's say at the end they are correct, then YOU are the false teacher you were just talking about. I'm just saying, I wouldn't say such harsh and powerful statements about other tribulation beliefs without fully studying them.

 

[Osgiliath]

Did you read this part of my post Zero?

These very people are mentioned in the Scriptures. They are the very people Paul warned us about in 2 Timothy 2:16-18; "Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and overthrow the faith of some". They are the scoffers mentioned in 2 Peter 3:3-4 who say: "for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation", who blatantly deny that "the heavens and earth that now exist are, by the same Word, stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment". They are the deceitful workers in 2 Corinthians 11; who come "preaching another Jesus, disguised as ministers of righteousness". They are the false Christ's Jesus warned us about who say; "Lo, here is Christ, or there - behold, he is in the secret chambers".

Take it up with the Word of God, not me.

 

[Vic C.]

Brother I had this exact same conversation with the pastor at my church learning as I go and he said close to the same thing, He said "Satainic" I didn't want to say this on a post as I figured I would get thrown off the site.

The "warning" of Osgiliath is not really constructive. If you stick around this site, you will notice that some try to assert the correctness of their view by demonizing others, not by engaging in collective discussion about the Scriptures. And no, Osgiliath, I am not singling you out - there are others who have made a veritable living off such rhetoric.

It is fine to disagree with Matthew24:34, but I suggest that you discuss the relevant texts, and not caricature him (or her) as some kind of Satanic monster.

I have to agree with Drew on this and insist we don't fall into the temptation of this sort of labeling. Drew and I have butted heads many, many times, just so you know where we are coming from and I apologize if I ever told him his beliefs were of the devil. :yes

I also agree with Os, if a teaching is so blatantly wrong, it must be brought to light.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Could some please tell me if Preterits's believe prophecy that "does not" relate to endtimes as in my third post with examples I enclosed. . ??

i.e. the birth of Christ, the Crucification of Christ, other verses in the bible that were prophesied but not relating to Endtime events?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Zero Link
It's slightly harder to tell the future than it is to study the past.

Perhaps, but the past still must align with Scripture. For example; some in this forum have claimed Nero was the beast, yet they still haven't been able to answer my question. I’m hoping someone will give it a try (hint hint :D).

If Revelation was written during Nero's reign as some claim (ruled 54 AD - 68 AD); and Nero was the sixth ruler of Rome ("there are also seven kings, five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come" - Revelation 17:10 - i.e. Nero was the one that "is" when John wrote Revelation); it is NOT possible (Biblically) for Nero to be the beast. Notice that the beast was to be an "eighth ruler" who was and "is not" when Revelation was written ("The beast that was and is not, is himself the eighth."). Nero cannot be BOTH the sixth AND eighth king. He cannot be both the one who is, and also be the one who is not. Some claim the beast (Nero) was cast into the lake of fire in 70 AD, yet Nero was not destroyed by Christ’s parousia in 70 AD; he committed suicide in 68 AD. So the question is:

If Nero was the SIXTH king, and it is written that the beast will be the EIGHTH king, who was the beast?

Revelation 17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth"

If Nero was the sixth (who is), who was the eighth (who is not)?

 

[Zero Link]

edit: If I'm slow at responding, excuse me... I'm kind of busy typing this AND finishing up on my finals.

These very people are mentioned in the Scriptures. They are the very people Paul warned us about in 2 Timothy 2:16-18; "Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past;

I actually thought Jesus already died, and came back for the first time. I thought we were just waiting for his second coming. I never knew preterist didn't believe in a future second coming.

"for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation", who blatantly deny that "the heavens and earth that now exist are, by the same Word, stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment".

No one is denying the day of judgement. Again, this all depends on when do you think the judgement day will take place. Immediately after Great Tribulation, or after the return of Christ?
Matthews 25:31 - 46

I know, you can say God will be judging during Tribulation as some have said NUMEROUS of times, but that does NOT mean judgement day falls upon that time. Judges judge the performance, then make their conclusions on the final day.

They are the deceitful workers in 2 Corinthians 11; who come "preaching another Jesus, disguised as ministers of righteousness".

Since when are we preaching of another Jesus?

They are the false Christ's Jesus warned us about who say; "Lo, here is Christ, or there - behold, he is in the secret chambers".

See, this would be true if there was a false Christ out there, and we run out and tell everyone that he is the real Christ without seeing any evidence what-so-ever. Do not think of preterists as fools. When we see the physical signs that were told in Matthews 24:30, we'll know that's our time we've been waiting for.

I myself will not say I am a full believer of the preterist view nor futurist. So if we ARE wrong, I'll still have my eyes open.

 

[Zero Link]

Originally posted by Zero Link
It's slightly harder to tell the future than it is to study the past.

Perhaps, but the past still must align with Scripture. For example; some in this forum have claimed Nero was the beast, yet they still haven't been able to answer my question. I’m hoping someone will give it a try (hint hint :D).

If Revelation was written during Nero's reign as some claim (ruled 54 AD - 68 AD); and Nero was the sixth ruler of Rome ("there are also seven kings, five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come" - Revelation 17:10 - i.e. Nero was the one that "is" when John wrote Revelation); it is NOT possible (Biblically) for Nero to be the beast. Notice that the beast was to be an "eighth ruler" who was and "is not" when Revelation was written ("The beast that was and is not, is himself the eighth."). Nero cannot be BOTH the sixth AND eighth king. He cannot be both the one who is, and also be the one who is not. Some claim the beast (Nero) was cast into the lake of fire in 70 AD, yet Nero was not destroyed by Christ’s parousia in 70 AD; he committed suicide in 68 AD. So the question is:

If Nero was the SIXTH king, and it is written that the beast will be the EIGHTH king, who was the beast?

Revelation 17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth"

If Nero was the sixth (who is), who was the eighth (who is not)?

Hahaha! I've actually tried to put two and two together when it came to Nero awhile back. While some pieces fit the puzzle, others weren't really cutting it. I'm doing more studying upon the death/revival of Rome and Newton's theory. But again, I'm still keeping my eyes open.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Zero Link
I'll still have my eyes open.

That's what counts :yes.

Like I have said, I have no issue with the partial-preterist viewpoint, because even futurists are partial-preterists to some degree.

 

[Sinthesis]

Could some please tell me if Preterits's believe prophecy that "does not" relate to endtimes as in my third post with examples I enclosed. . ??

i.e. the birth of Christ, the Crucification of Christ, other verses in the bible that were prophesied but not relating to Endtime events?

I'm sure some, if not most, do. Why wouldn't they?

 

[Sinthesis]

edit: If I'm slow at responding, excuse me... I'm kind of busy typing this AND finishing up on my finals.

These very people are mentioned in the Scriptures. They are the very people Paul warned us about in 2 Timothy 2:16-18; "Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past;

I actually thought Jesus already died, and came back for the first time. I thought we were just waiting for his second coming. I never knew preterist didn't believe in a future second coming.

Full-preterists probably don't, but partial-preterists usually do.