The Preterist Position - I have a Question

[Vic C.]

Could some please tell me if Preterits's believe prophecy that "does not" relate to endtimes as in my third post with examples I enclosed. . ??

i.e. the birth of Christ, the Crucification of Christ, other verses in the bible that were prophesied but not relating to Endtime events?

I'm sure some, if not most, do. Why wouldn't they?

I'm not a preterist, but I believe their postition is being misunderstood. They don't deny prophecy; they believe it all. The word preterist come for a Latin word that means "past" or "in the past". That right there explains their view; most or all prophecy has been fulfilled.

They differ with the partial (or historical) preterist or historicist which believe that most are fulfilled and some are yet to be fulfilled or that some have been fulfilled throughout history, with a few that are unfulfilled, hence the name partial or historicist.

 

[Drew]

Drew and I have butted heads many, many times, just so you know where we are coming from and I apologize if I ever told him his beliefs were of the devil.

No apology necessary. I was not even remotely thinking of you - you have never come close to doing this sort of thing.

 

[Sinthesis]

Could some please tell me if Preterits's believe prophecy that "does not" relate to endtimes as in my third post with examples I enclosed. . ??

i.e. the birth of Christ, the Crucification of Christ, other verses in the bible that were prophesied but not relating to Endtime events?

I'm sure some, if not most, do. Why wouldn't they?

I'm not a preterist, but I believe their postition is being misunderstood. They don't deny prophecy; they believe it all. The word preterist come for a Latin word that means "past" or "in the past". That right there explains their view; most or all prophecy has been fulfilled.

They differ with the partial (or historical) preterist or historicist which believe that most are fulfilled and some are yet to be fulfilled or that some have been fulfilled throughout history, with a few that are unfulfilled, hence the name partial or historicist.

It gets even more confusing when you consider types or shadows of fulfillment.
This does help a little.
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=27142

 

[Drew]

For example:

Exactly 2,485.479 years from 536 B.C. is the prophetic date of May 15, 1948. On this date, Israel became a nation just as promised in the Bible (Isaiah 66:8). The return of the Jews to Israel is the key to Bible prophecy.

I disagree on your take re Israel.

Despite the Genesis 17 promise of Palestine to Israel forever, things are not what they seem. The heir of that promise is not the nation of Israel, but rather the church.

Consider this from Romans 4:

It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."

The “as it is written†device of verse 17 clearly shows that this verse is amplifying on the same promise of verse 16, which Paul has just described as being for Jews and Gentiles. Those “of the law (the Torah)†are clearly Jews and Paul clearly expands the set of heirs beyond Jews only. The promise in verse 17 is an Abrahamic covenant promise copied straight out of Genesis 17.

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

Now it is clear from Romans 4 that Abraham is given the Genesis 17:5 promise specifically in his capacity as a father, not of a Jew only family, but of a Jew+Gentile family.

In verse 7, Paul refers to the descendents of Abraham. We know from Paul's analysis of verse 5, these must be his Jew + Gentile descendents. In verse 5, Abraham is set in the role of a father to a Jew + Gentile family, so the descendents in verses 7 and 8 must be descendents in that same family.

No competent writer would describe Abraham in verse 5 as being father of a family A (Jews and Gentiles) and then describe a promise made to a different family B (the nation of Israel) in verses 7 and 8 without giving us any intervening hint at all that promises to a different family are about to be described. If anything, the trans-national allusions of Genesis 17:6 only re-enforce the position that a Jew + Gentile family remains solidly in view.

This is all about reading the entire narrative of Scripture. True, the Genesis 17 promise seems to be made to the Jews. But if we take Paul seriously in Romans 4, we are driven to the conclusion that Paul understands the real heirs of the promise of “Palestine forever†are actually the Jew + Gentile family of faith – the church.

To recap the argument in case the connections are missed:

1. Paul asserts that a certain promise is made to Abraham in his capacity of a father to a Jew + Gentile family (Romans 4:16);

2. It is clear that Romans 4:17 is elaborating on that same promise (“As it is writtenâ€Â)

3. Romans 4:17 is quoting Genesis 17:5. Therefore, by virtue of (1), we know that Paul sees Genesis 17:5 as describing Abraham as the father of a Jew + Gentile family.

4. If Paul sees Abraham in Genesis 17:5 as the father of a Jew + Gentile family, he must see the promise of Genesis 17:7-8 as being made to Abraham in his capacity of father to that same family. Genesis 17:6 is the only intervening material and this material does not justify a shift to a consideration of Abraham’s Jewish family, it actually strengthens the position that a Jew + Gentile family is still in view.

Now what it means to promise Palestine to the church is a matter I will not get into in the present post. Here again, I will claim that the promise does not mean what it seems to mean, at least i respect to what Paul means by “Palestineâ€Â.

 

[Vic C.]

It gets even more confusing when you consider types or shadows of fulfillment.
This does help a little.
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=27142

You would think the shadows of fulfillment would undo some of the confusion.

Thanks for reminding me of Jason's stickey. He started a thread a while back on Sproul's partial preterism position. It was a link from the preterist archive site.

Contemporary "Partial Preterist View"

A.D.70

A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age

Still Future

The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history

(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days) (source: http://www.preteristarchive.com/Partial ... index.html )

Check out the link, it's not bad. It also covers the Futurist view, both the pros and cons.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Futurism/index.html

... and even a historicist vs. futurism comparison (one of my faves):

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Critica ... in_ca.html

Just do search of whatever you are looking for, right from their on search engine and chances are they have it archived. I give them credit for doing all this in spite of the fact that much of the info may be against their position. :D

 

[parousia70]

QUESTION

If I come to Christ as a newcomer under this view, I would believe there is no such thing as a modern day “biblical Antichrist†in your own words.

Interesting.
What of the Newcomer under your view who lived in the 1500's?
Under your view, they were to have believed in an antichrist that was to arise in their day, yes?

 

[parousia70]

These very people are mentioned in the Scriptures. They are the very people Paul warned us about in 2 Timothy 2:16-18; "Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; ........
This is exactly what full-preterists do - claiming the resurrection is already past, scoffing, claiming Christ has already come. How much more obvious do the warnings in the Bible have to be? Jesus said; BELIEVE THEM NOT!

So Osgil, in your view, is their a terminus on this warning?

In other words, in your view will it ALWAYS be wrong to say "the resurrection is past" or do you believe after the resurrection it will be then be OK to say "the resurrection is past"?

 

[Matthew24:34]

My issue is it's a gamble. What if your wrong and others follow you into the trap of not worrying about things to do with endtimes. Not being wearing of a single thing in end times. Your views deliever people into the hands of the antichrist and tells them not to worry it's all a coincidence. Ignore the signs, ignore the symbols.

To suggest that we should not be keeping uptodate date with the developments in our world by not reading or paying attention to the news is silly. I pay attention to what is happening in Israel everyday, I keep an eye on the New Age movement, I watch the developments in Europe and the E.U.
and I read and study the bible.

For example:

Exactly 2,485.479 years from 536 B.C. is the prophetic date of May 15, 1948. On this date, Israel became a nation just as promised in the Bible (Isaiah 66:8). The return of the Jews to Israel is the key to Bible prophecy. Israel is the timepiece by which we can watch and know that Jesus is coming soon.

I read about the "event" in the media and the prophecy in the bible. About a zillion christians believe this to be one of many prophcies fulfilled. What is your response to the above.


Do you believe in prophecy as it does not relate to end times? i.e. the birth of Christ, the Crucification of Christ, other verses in the bible that were prophesied but not relating to Endtime events?


Fulfilled Bible Prophecies

Gen. 3:15.....Seed of a woman (virgin birth).....Luke 1:35, Mt 1:18-20
Gen. 3:15.....He will bruise Satan's head.....Heb. 2:14, 1 Jn. 3:18
Gen. 5:24....The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated....Mk. 6:19
Gen. 9:26,27...The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem...Lu. 3:36
Gen. 12:3...As Abraham's seed, will bless all nations...Acts. 3:25,26
Gen. 12:7...The Promise made to Abraham's Seed...Gal. 3:16
Gen. 14:18...A priest after Melchizedek...Heb. 6:20
Gen. 14:18........A King also........Heb. 7:2
Gen. 14:18...The Last Supper foreshadowed...Mt. 26:26-29
Gen. 17:19.......The Seed of Isaac.......Rom. 9:7
Gen. 22:8...The Lamb of God promised...Jn. 1:29
Gen. 22:18...As Isaac's seed, will bless all nations...Gal. 3:16
Gen.26:2-5..The Seed of Isaac promised as the Redeemer..Heb.11:18
Gen. 49:10...The time of His coming...Lu. 2:1-7; Gal. 4:4
Gen. 49:10.......The Seed of Judah.......Lu. 3:33
Gen. 49:10......Called Shiloh or One Sent......Jn. 17:3
Gen. 49:10...To come before Judah lost identity...Jn. 11:47-52
Gen. 49:10...To Him shall the obedience of the people be...Jn. 10:16
Ex. 3:13,14........The Great "I Am".......Jn. 4:26
Ex. 12:5...A Lamb without blemish...1 Pet. 1:19
Ex. 12:13...The blood of the Lamb saves from wrath...Rom. 5:8
Ex. 12:21-27...Christ is our Passover...1 Cor. 5;7
Ex. 12:46...Not a bone of the Lamb to be broken...Jn. 19:31-36
Ex. 15:2...His exaltation predicted as Yeshua...Acts 7:55,56
Ex. 15:11...His Character-Holiness...Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27
Ex. 17:6...The Spiritual Rock of Israel...1 Cor. 10;4
Ex. 33:19...His Character-Merciful...Lu. 1:72
Lev.14:11..The leper cleansed-Sign to priesthood..Lu.5:12-14; Acts 6:7
Lev.16:15-17...Prefigures Christ's once-for-all death...Heb. 9:7-14
Lev.16:27...Suffering outside the Camp...Mt. 27:33; Heb. 13:11, 12
Lev.17:11...The Blood-the life of the flesh...Mt. 26;28; Mk. 10:45
Lev.17:11...It is the blood that makes atonement...1 Jn. 3:14-18
Lev.23:36-37...The Drink-offering: "If any man thirst." ..Jn. 19:31-36
Num. 9:12...Not a bone of Him broken...John 19:31-36
Num. 21:9...The serpent on a pole-Christ lifted up...Jn. 3:14-18
Num. 24:17...Time: "I shall see him, but not now."...Gal. 4:4
Deut. 18:15..."This is of a truth that prophet."...Jn. 6:14
Deut. 18:15-16..."Had ye believed Moses, ye would believe me."...Jn. 5:45-47
Deut. 18:18...Sent by the Father to speak His word...Jn. 8:28, 29
Deut. 18:19...Whoever will not hear must bear his sin...Jn. 12:15,
Deut. 21:23...Cursed is he that hangs on a tree...Gal. 3:10-13
Ruth 4:4-9...Christ, our kinsman, has redeemed us...Eph. 1:3-7
1 Sam. 2:10...Shall be an anointed King to the Lord...Mt. 28:18; Jn. 12:15
2 Sam. 7:12...David's Seed...Mt. 1:1
2 Sam. 7:14a...The Son of God... Lu. 1:32
2 Sam. 7:16...David's house established forever...Lu. 3:31; Rev. 22:16
2 Ki. 2:11...The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated...Lu. 24:51
1 Chr. 17:11...David's Seed...Mt. 1:1; 9:27
1 Chr. 17:12, 13a...To reign on David's throne forever...Lu. 1:32, 33
1 Chr. 17:13a..."I will be His Father, He...my Son."...Heb. 1:5
Job 19:23-27...The Resurrection predicted...Jn. 5:24-29
Psa. 2:1-3...The enmity of kings foreordained...Acts 4:25-28
Psa. 2:2...To own the title, Anointed (Christ)...Acts 2:36
Ps. 2:6...His Character-Holiness...Jn. 8:46; Rev. 3:7
Ps. 2:6...To own the title King...Mt. 2:2
Ps. 2:7...Declared the Beloved Son...Mt. 3;17
Psa. 2:7, 8...The Crucifixion and Resurrection intimated...Acts 13:29-33
Psa. 2:12...Life comes through faith in Him...Jn. 20:31
Psa. 8:2...The mouths of babes perfect His praise...Mt. 21:16
Psa. 8:5, 6...His humiliation and exaltation...Lu. 24:50-53; 1 Cor. 15:27
Psa. 16:10...Was not to see corruption...Acts 2:31
Psa. 16:9-11...Was to arise from the dead...Jn. 20:9
Psa. 17;15...The resurrection predicted...Lu. 24:6
Psa. 22:1...Forsaken because of sins of others...2 Cor. 5:21
Psa. 22:1...Words spoken from Calvary, "My God..." Mk. 15:34
Psa. 22:2...Darkness upon Calvary...Mt. 27:45
Psa. 22:7...They shoot out the lip and shake the head...Mt. 27:39
Psa. 22:8.." He trusted in God, let Him deliver Him "...Mt. 27:43
Psa. 22:9......Born the Saviour......Lu. 2:7
Psa. 22:14...Died of a broken (ruptured) heart...Jn. 19:34
Psa. 22:14,15...Suffered agony on Calvary...Mk. 15:34-37
Psa. 22:15........He thirsted........Jn. 19:28
Psa. 22:16...They pierced His hands and His feet....Jn. 19:34,37;20:27
Psa. 22:17,18...Stripped Him before the stares of men...Lu. 23:34,35
Psa. 22:18.....They parted His garments.....Jn. 19:23,24
Psa. 22:20,21...He committed Himself to God...Lu.23:46
Psa. 22:20,21..Satanic power bruising the Redeemer's heel..Heb. 2:14
Psa. 22:22.....His Resurrection declared.....Jn. 20:17
Psa. 22:27...He shall be the governor of the nations...Col 1:16
Psa. 22:31......"It is finished"......Jn. 19:30
Psa. 23:1...."I am the Good Shepherd"....Jn. 10:11
Psa. 24:3......His exaltation predicted......Acts 1:11; Phil. 2:9
Psa. 30:3......His resurrection predicted......Acts 2:32
Psa. 31:5..."Into thy hands I commit my spirit"...Lu. 23:46
Psa. 31:11...His acquaintances fled from Him...Mk. 14:50
Psa. 31:13...They took counsel to put Him to death...Jn. 11:53
Psa. 31:14,15..." He trusted in God, let Him deliver him"...Mt. 27:43
Psa. 34:20.....Not a bone of Him broken.....Jn 19:31-36
Psa. 35:11....False witnesses rose up against Him....Mt. 26:59
Psa. 35:19...He was hated without a cause...Jn. 15:25
Psa. 38:11.....His friends stood afar off.....Lu. 23:49
Psa. 40:2-5...The joy of His resurrection predicted...Jn. 20:20
Psa. 40:6-8....His delight-the will of the Father....Jn. 4:34
Psa. 40:9....He was to preach the Righteousness in Israel....Mt. 4:17
Psa. 40:14...Confronted by adversaries in the Garden...Jn.
Psa. 41:9.....Betrayed by a familiar friend.....Jn. 13:18
Psa. 45:2...Words of Grace come from His lips...Lu. 4:22
Psa. 45:6...To own the title, God or Elohim...Heb. 1:8
Psa. 45:7...A special anointing by the Holy Spirit...Mt.3:16; Heb.1:9
Psa. 45:7,8...Called the Christ (Messiah or Anointed)...Lu. 2:11
Psa. 55:12-14...Betrayed by a friend, not an enemy...Jn. 13:18
Psa. 55:15...Unrepentant death of the Betrayer...Mt. 27:3-5; Acts 1:16-19
Psa. 68:18...To give gifts to men...Eph. 4:7-16
Psa. 68:18...Ascended into Heaven...Lu. 24:51
Psa. 69:4...Hated without a cause...Jn. 15:25
Psa. 69:8...A stranger to own brethren...Lu. 8;20,21
Psa. 69:9...Zealous for the Lord's House...Jn. 2:17
Psa. 69:14-20...Messiah's anguish of soul before crucifixion...Mt. 26:36-45
Psa. 69:20..."My soul is exceeding sorrowful."...Mt. 26:38
Psa. 69:21...Given vinegar in thirst...Mt. 27:34
Psa. 69:26...The Saviour given and smitten by God...Jn. 17:4; 18:11
Psa. 72:10,11...Great persons were to visit Him...Mt. 2:1-11
Psa. 72:16...The corn of wheat to fall into the Ground...Jn. 12:24
Psa. 72:17...His name, Yinon, will produce offspring...Jn. 1:12,13
Psa. 72:17...All nations shall be blessed by Him...Acts 2:11,12,41
Psa. 78:1.2...He would teach in parables...Mt. 13:34-35
Psa. 78:2b...To speak the Wisdom of God with authority...Mt. 7:29
Psa. 88:8...They stood afar off and watched...Lu. 23:49
Psa. 89:27...Emmanuel to be higher than earthly kings...Lu. 1:32,33
Psa. 89:35-37...David's Seed, throne, kingdom endure forever...Lu. 1:32,33
Psa. 89:36-37...His character-Faithfulness...Rev. 1:5
Psa. 90:2...He is from everlasting (Micah 5:2)...Jn. 1:1
Psa. 91:11,12...Identified as Messianic; used to tempt Christ...Lu. 4;10,11
Psa. 97:9...His exaltation predicted...Acts 1:11;Eph. 1:20
Psa. 100:5...His character-Goodness...Mt. 19:16,17
Psa. 102:1-11...The Suffering and Reproach of Calvary...Jn. 21:16-30
Psa. 102:25-27...Messiah is the Preexistent Son...Heb. 1:10-12
Psa. 109:25...Ridiculed...Mt. 27:39
Psa. 110:1...Son of David...Mt. 22:43
Psa. 110:1...To ascend to the right-hand of the Father...Mk.16:19
Psa. 110:1...David's son called Lord...Mt. 22:44,45
Psa. 110:4...A priest after Melchizedek's order...Heb. 6:20
Psa. 112:4...His character-Compassionate, Gracious, et al... Mt. 9;36
Psa. 118:17,18...Messiah's Resurrection assured...Lu. 24:5-7;1 Cor. 15:20
Psa. 118:22,23...The rejected stone is Head of the corner...Mt. 21:42,43
Psa. 118:26a...The Blessed One presented to Israel...Mt. 21:9
Psa. 118:26b...To come while Temple standing...Mt. 21;12-15
Psa. 132:11...The Seed of David (the fruit of His Body)...Lu. 1:32
Psa. 138:1-6...The supremacy of David's Seed amazes kings... Mt. 2:2-6
Psa. 147:3,6...The earthly ministry of Christ described...Lu. 4:18
Psa. 1:23...He will send the Spirit of God... Jn. 16;7
Song. 5;16...The altogether lovely One...Jn. 1:17
Isa. 6:1...When Isaiah saw His glory... Jn. 12:40-41
Isa. 6:9-10...Parables fall on deaf ears...Mt. 13:13-15
Isa. 6:9-12...Blinded to Christ and deaf to His words...Acts. 28:23-29
Isa. 7:14...To be born of a virgin...Lu. 1:35
Isa. 7:14...To be Emmanuel-God with us... Mt. 1:18-23
Isa. 8:8...Called Emmanuel...Mt. 28:20
Isa. 8:14...A stone of stumbling, a Rock of offense... 1 Pet. 2:8
Isa. 9:1,2...His ministry to begin in Galilee...Mt. 4:12-17
Isa. 9:6...A child born-Humanity...Lu. 1:31
Isa. 9:6...A Son given-Deity...Lu. 1:32; Jn. 1;14; 1 Tim. 3:16
Isa. 9:6...Declared to be the Son of God with power... Rom. 1:3,4
Isa. 9:6...The Wonderful One, Peleh...Lu. 4:22
Isa. 9:6...The Counsellor, Yaatz...Mt. 13:54
Isa. 9:6...The Mighty God, El Gibor...Mt. 11:20
Isa. 9:6...The Everlasting Father, Avi Adth...Jn. 8:58
Isa. 9:6...The Prince of Peace, Sar Shalom...Jn . 16:33
Isa. 9:7...To establish an everlasting kingdom...Lu. 1:32-33
Isa. 9:7...His Character-Just...Jn. 5:30
Isa. 9:7...No end to his Government, Throne, and Peace...Lu. 1:32-33
Isa. 11:1...Called a Nazarene-the Branch, Netzer...Mt. 2:23
Isa. 11:1...A rod out of Jesse-Son of Jesse...Lu. 3:23,32
Isa. 11:2...The anointed One by the Spirit...Mt. 3;16,17
Isa. 11:2...His Character-Wisdom, Understanding, et al....Jn. 4:4-26
Isa. 11:4...His Character-Truth...Jn. 14:6
Isa. 11:10...The Gentiles seek Him...Jn. 12:18-21
Isa. 12:2...Called Jesus-Yeshua(salvation)...Mt. 1:21
Isa. 25:8...The Resurrection predicted...I Cor. 15:54
Isa. 26:19...His power of Resurrection predicted...Jn. 11:43,44
Isa. 28:16...The Messiah is the precious corner stone...Acts 4:11,12
Isa. 29:13...He indicated hypocritical obedience to His Word...Mt. 15:7-9
Isa. 29:14...The wise are confounded by the Word...I Cor. 1:18-31
Isa. 32:2...A Refuge-A man shall be a hiding place...Mt. 23:37
Isa. 35:4...He will come and save you...Mt. 1:21
Isa. 35:5...To have a ministry of miracles...Mt. 11:4-6
Isa. 40:3,4...Preceded by forerunner...Jn. 1:23
Isa. 40:9..."Behold your God."...Jn. 1:36;19:14
Isa. 40:11...A shepherd-compassionate life-giver...Jn. 10:10-18
Isa. 42:1-4...The Servant-as a faithful, patient redeemer... Mt.12:18-21
Isa. 42:2...Meek and lowly... Mt. 11:28-30
Isa. 42:3...He brings hope for the hopeless... Jn. 4
Isa. 42:4...The nations shall wait on His teachings... Jn. 12:20-26
Isa. 42:6...The Light (salvation) of the Gentiles...Lu. 2:32
Isa. 42:1,6...His is a Worldwide compassion... Mt. 28:19,20
Isa. 42:7...Blind eyes opened... Jn. 9:25-38
Isa. 43:11...He is the only Saviour... Acts. 4:12
Isa. 44:3...He will send the Spirit of God... Jn. 16:7,13
Isa. 45:23...He will be the Judge... Jn. 5:22;Rom. 14:11
Isa. 48:12...The First and the Last...Jn. 1:30;Rev. 1:8,17
Isa. 48:17...He came as a Teacher...Jn. 3:2
Isa. 49:1...Called from the womb-His humanity...Mt. 1:18
Isa. 49:5...A Servant from the womb...Lu. 1:31;Phil. 2:7
Isa. 49:6...He is Salvation for Israel...Lu. 2:29-32
Isa. 49:6...He is the Light of the Gentiles...Acts 13:47
Isa. 49:6...He is Salvation unto the ends of the earth... Acts 15:7-18
Isa. 49:7...He is despised of the Nation... Jn. 8:48-49
Isa. 50:3...Heaven is clothed in black at His humiliation... Lu. 23:44,45
Isa. 50:4...He is a learned counsellor for the weary... Mt. 11:28,29
Isa. 50:5...The Servant bound willingly to obedience... Mt. 26:39
Isa. 50:6a..."I gave my back to the smiters."... Mt. 27:26
Isa. 50:6b...He was smitten on the cheeks... Mt. 26:67
Isa. 50:6c...He was spat upon... Mt. 27:30
Isa. 52:7...To publish good tidings of peace... Lu. 4:14,15
Isa. 52:13...The Servant exalted...Acts 1:8-11; Eph. 1:19-22
Isa. 52:13...Behold, My Servant... Mt. 17:5; Phil. 2:5-8
Isa. 52:14...The Servant shockingly abused... Lu. 18:31-34; Mt. 26:67,68
Isa. 52:15...Nations startled by message of the Servant... Rom. 15:18-21
Isa. 52:15...His blood shed to make atonement for all... Rev. 1:5
Isa. 53:1...His people would not believe Him... Jn. 12:37-38
Isa. 53:2a...He would grow up in a poor family.... Lu. 2:7
Isa. 53:2b...Appearance of an ordinary man... Phil. 2:7-8
Isa. 53:3a...Despised.... Lu. 4:28-29
Isa. 53:3b...Rejected... Mt. 27:21-23
Isa. 53:3c...Great sorrow and grief... Lu. 19:41-42
Isa. 53:3d...Men hide from being associated with Him... Mk. 14:50-52
Isa. 53:4a...He would have a healing ministry... Lu. 6:17-19
Isa. 53:4b...He would bear the sins of the world... 1 Pet. 2:24
Isa. 53:4c...Thought to be cursed by God... Mt. 27:41-43
Isa. 53:5a...Bears penalty for mankind's transgressions... Lu. 23:33
Isa. 53:5b...His sacrifice would provide peace between man and God... Col. 1:20
Isa. 53:5c...His back would be whipped... Mt. 27:26
Isa. 53:6a...He would be the sin-bearer for all mankind...Gal. 1:4
Isa. 53:6b...God's will that He bear sin for all mankind... 1 Jn. 4:10
Isa. 53:7a...Oppressed and afflicted... Mt. 27:27-31
Isa. 53:7b...Silent before his accusers... Mt. 27:12-14
Isa. 53:7c...Sacrificial lamb... Jn. 1:29
Isa. 53:8a...Confined and persecuted... Mt. 26:47-27:31
Isa. 53:8b...He would be judged... Jn. 18:13-22
Isa. 53:8c...Killed.... Mt. 27:35
Isa. 53:8d...Dies for the sins of the world... 1 Jn. 2:2
Isa. 53:9a...Buried in a rich man's grave... Mt. 27:57
Isa. 53:9b...Innocent and had done no violence... Mk. 15:3
Isa. 53:9c...No deceit in his mouth... Jn. 18:38
Isa. 53:10a...God's will that He die for mankind... Jn. 18:11
Isa. 53:10b...An offering for sin... Mt. 20:28
Isa. 53:10c...Resurrected and live forever.... Mk. 16:16
Isa. 53:10d...He would prosper... Jn. 17:1-5
Isa. 53:11a...God fully satisfied with His suffering... Jn. 12:27
Isa. 53:11b...God's servant... Rom. 5:18-19
Isa. 53:11c...He would justify man before God... Rom. 5:8-9
Isa. 53:11d...The sin-bearer for all mankind... Heb. 9:28
Isa. 53:12a...Exalted by God because of his sacrifice... Mt. 28:18
Isa. 53:12b...He would give up his life to save mankind... Lu. 23:46
Isa. 53:12c...Grouped with criminals... Lu. 23:32
Isa. 53:12d...Sin-bearer for all mankind... 2 Cor. 5:21
Isa. 53:12e...Intercede to God in behalf of mankind... Lu. 23:34
Isa. 55:3...Resurrected by God... Acts 13:34
Isa. 55:4...A witness... Jn. 18:37
Isa. 59:15-16a...He would come to provide salvation... Jn. 6:40
Isa. 59:15-16b...Intercessor between man and God... Mt. 10:32
Isa. 59:20...He would come to Zion as their Redeemer... Lu. 2:38
Isa. 61:1-2a...The Spirit of God upon him... Mt. 3:16-17
Isa. 61:1-2b...The Messiah would preach the good news... Lu. 4:17-21
Isa. 61:1-2c...Provide freedom from the bondage of sin and death... Jn. 8:31-32
Isa. 61:1-2...Proclaim a period of grace... Jn. 5:24
Jer.23:5-6a...Descendant of David...Lu. 3:23-31
Jer. 23:5-6b...The Messiah would be God... Jn. 13:13
Jer. 23:5-6c...The Messiah would be both God and Man... 1 Tim. 3:16
Jer. 31:22...Born of a virgin... Mt. 1:18-20
Jer. 31:31...The Messiah would be the new covenant... Mt. 26:28
Jer. 33:14-15...Descendant of David... Lu. 3:23-31
Eze.17:22-24...Descendant of David... Lk. 3:23-31
Eze.34:23-24...Descendant of David... Mt. 1:1
Dan. 7:13-14a...He would ascend into heaven... Acts 1:9-11
Dan. 7:13-14b...Highly exalted... Eph. 1:20-22
Dan. 7:13-14c...His dominion would be everlasting... Lu. 1:31-33
Dan. 9:24a...To make an end to sins... Gal. 1:3-5
Dan. 9:24b...He would be holy... Lu. 1:35
Dan. 9:25...Announced to his people 483 years, to the exact day, after the decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem... Jn. 12:12-13
Dan. 9:26a...Killed... Mt. 27:35
Dan. 9:26b...Die for the sins of the world... Heb. 2:9
Dan. 9:26c...Killed before the destruction of the temple... Mt. 27:50-51
Dan. 10:5-6...Messiah in a glorified state... Rev. 1:13-16
Hos. 13:14...He would defeat death... 1 Cor. 15:55-57
Joel 2:32...Offer salvation to all mankind... Rom. 10:12-13
Mic. 5:2a...Born in Bethlehem... Mt. 2:1-2
Mic. 5:2b...God's servant... Jn. 15:10
Mic. 5:2c...From everlasting... Jn. 8:58
Hag. 2:6-9...He would visit the second Temple... Lu. 2:27-32
Hag. 2:23...Descendant of Zerubbabel... Lu. 3:23-27
Zech. 3:8...God's servant... Jn. 17:4
Zech. 6:12-13...Priest and King... Heb. 8:1
Zech. 9:9a...Greeted with rejoicing in Jerusalem... Mt. 21:8-10
Zech. 9:9b...Beheld as King... Jn. 12:12-13
Zech. 9:9c...The Messiah would be just... Jn. 5:30
Zech. 9:9d...The Messiah would bring salvation... Luke 19:10
Zech. 9:9e...The Messiah would be humble... Mt. 11:29
Zech. 9:9f...Presented to Jerusalem riding on a donkey... Mt. 21:6-9
Zech. 10:4...The cornerstone... Eph. 2:20
Zech. 11:4-6a...At His coming, Israel to have unfit leaders... Mt. 23:1-4
Zech. 11:4-6b...Rejection causes God to remove His protection.. Lu. 19:41-44
Zech. 11:4-6c...Rejected in favor of another king... Jn. 19:13-15
Zech. 11:7...Ministry to "poor," the believing remnant... Mt. 9:35-36
Zech. 11:8a...Unbelief forces Messiah to reject them... Mt. 23:33
Zech. 11:8b...Despised... Mt. 27:20
Zech. 11:9...Stops ministering to the those who rejected Him... Mt. 13:10-11
Zech. 11:10-11a...Rejection causes God to remove protection... Lu. 19:41-44
Zech. 11:10-11b...The Messiah would be God... Jn. 14:7
Zech. 11:12-13a...Betrayed for thirty pieces of silver... Mt. 26:14-15
Zech. 11:12-13b...Rejected... Mt. 26:14-15
Zech. 11:12-13c...Thirty pieces of silver thrown into the house of the Lord... Mt. 27:3-5
Zech. 11:12-13d...The Messiah would be God... Jn. 12:45
Zech. 12:10a...The Messiah's body would be pierced... Jn. 19:34-37
Zech. 12:10b...The Messiah would be both God and man... Jn. 10:30
Zech. 12:10c...The Messiah would be rejected... Jn. 1:11
Zech. 13:7a...God's will He die for mankind... Jn. 18:11
Zech. 13:7b...A violent death... Mt. 27:35
Zech. 13:7c...Both God and man.. Jn. 14:9
Zech. 13:7d...Israel scattered as a result of rejecting Him... Mt. 26:31-56
Mal. 3:1a...Messenger to prepare the way for Messiah... Mt. 11:10
Mal. 3:1b...Sudden appearance at the temple... Mk. 11:15-16
Mal. 3:1c...Messenger of the new covenant... Lu. 4:43
Mal. 4:5...Forerunner in the spirit of Elijah... Mt. 3:1-2
Mal. 4:6...Forerunner would turn many to righteousness... Lu. 1:16-17

I already answered your ridiculous hypothetical questions, NBF. Furthermore, did you study all of these verses you simply copied and pasted? I will not deal with people who do such things!

I have demonstrated to you with Scripture that the "Antichrist" was a historical figure or entity. You either did not read what I posted or you refuse to deal with it. I will no longer waste my time with people who do want to study the Word and contributed their own work!

It is those who refuse to see what Jesus and His disciples' own words were proclaiming and more indicting those who twist His words to their own ends who will be ashamed when they leave this world.

NBF, you are and osgiliath are totally unteachable. You are both more in love with your eschatological systems than you are with the Scriptures.

Have a good life waiting for the the return of Christ which has already taken place. Have fun finding Antichrist beneath every rock. He's not there and will never be there. Study your Bibles!

 

[whirlwind]

I don't believe anyone will be sitting in the middle of armegeddon with bullets buzzing around his ears.

God bless,
duval

Nore do I ..

As to the question....I think preterism is completely wrong but, the reason I am responding is because of the reference to "bullets buzzing" at Armageddon.

Revelation 16:14-16 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

This is a spiritual gathering....not literal. It is the "place of crowds." He is spiritually gathering them now....all over the world, just as we are being gathered. Another name for it would be the "great city Babylon." It is wherever God isn't.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

QUESTION

If I come to Christ as a newcomer under this view, I would believe there is no such thing as a modern day “biblical Antichrist†in your own words.

Interesting.
What of the Newcomer under your view who lived in the 1500's?
Under your view, they were to have believed in an antichrist that was to arise in their day, yes?

Parousia70 I think you know that the example I gave is a modern day example. I certainly don't find this funny.

As you seem to be the other more prominate Preterist on this site may I ask you the same question.I am writing up an article on this and would just like your view perhaps for the record.

I pose the question in modern day and ask if you would accept the mark from such a world leader in the modern day. Just in case you don't understand what modern day is that would be now like 2009 or years to follow. Yes or No would you accept the mark in the example below.

Lets say for example a world leader arose out of the E.U. He ultimately asked people to accept a mark or an rfid chip implant or they would be unable to buy or sell. This of course like everything in endtimes (my views not yours) came in the name of peace and security. So if I understand correctly, you would gladly accept this mark as you would be convinced there is no biblical Antichrist. What would your response to that be ?? Would you accept this mark knowing that if you didn't you would not be able to buy or sell? I ask you to please tell me what would you do if you were faced with this exact scenario? According to you there are no future signs or warnings. So no matter how much modern day events seem to match the events of Revelation you should have no worries.


So if such a leader was to arise out of ten nations and he matched every single criteria that describes the Antichrist in the bible (I believe there are 46) I should have no worries because it’s just a coincidence. He won’t come as a tyrant (He will have a mouth speaking great things. Very boastful - Daniel 7:8). In the name of peace and security.

So when this charismatic world leader who says all the right things, and everyone just loves him starts talking about a wonderful security system that will protect us from terrorism, identity fraud, counterfeit currency, safer travel at our airports and borders, a perfect cashless society. When he pitches the mark in the name of peace and security anyone under your views should would be safe to accept the mark because there is no such thing as a biblical antichrist in the 21 Century .

 

[nonbelieverforums]

I already answered your ridiculous hypothetical questions, NBF. Furthermore, did you study all of these verses you simply copied and pasted? I will not deal with people who do such things!

I have demonstrated to you with Scripture that the "Antichrist" was a historical figure or entity. You either did not read what I posted or you refuse to deal with it. I will no longer waste my time with people who do want to study the Word and contributed their own work!

It is those who refuse to see what Jesus and His disciples' own words were proclaiming and more indicting those who twist His words to their own ends who will be ashamed when they leave this world.

NBF, you are and osgiliath are totally unteachable. You are both more in love with your eschatological systems than you are with the Scriptures.

Have a good life waiting for the the return of Christ which has already taken place. Have fun finding Antichrist beneath every rock. He's not there and will never be there. Study your Bibles!

Matthew 24:34 I am sorry if you feel upset that is certainly not my intention. I have read everything you have written. I am learning as I go about this view. I am just a believer. I don't have your resume.

However I certainly don't think the example I gave you is ridiculous.

In fact I think that you could find yourself faced with having to accept a new form buying and selling system in your life time as we approach a cashless system. This will very likely come in the form of the National ID Card which we will see next year then leading to a National ID Card with an RFID chip and then a full RFID chip implant.

As stated in a previous post I have posted just some of the many advantages of this wonderful secuirty system to make us all feel safe:

http://www.rfidjournal.com
http://www.verichipcorp.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM1C80-MeMw

So I suggest that you need not heed any warning signs about this system or the wonderful charismatic world leader who may ask you to accept such a system for you own good and safety.

Herein lies my problem with the Preterist Position.

P.S. Everything above refers to the modern day 2009 and forward if that wasn't clear.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by parousia70
So Osgil, in your view, is their a terminus on this warning?

In other words, in your view will it ALWAYS be wrong to say "the resurrection is past" or do you believe after the resurrection it will be then be OK to say "the resurrection is past"?

Of course it will be OK, but I would rather wait until it actually happens before I say that it did. As far as I know, we Christians still marry and are given in marriage, yet Christ said in the resurrection we will not marry (Matthew 22:23-32).

Also,

1 Corinthians 15:51-53: “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changedâ€â€in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.â€Â

The verses above clearly state that when Jesus returns not only will dead believers be transformed, but Christians who are alive at that time will also receive new glorified incorruptible bodies. Even though not every believer will undergo physical death, every Christian will have to undergo a change so that what is corruptible or perishable will become imperishable and immortal. This hasn’t happened yet my friend. The transformation of all the dead believers and all the saints who are alive occurs virtually simultaneously. Paul says that it happens in "a moment", (Gk. atomos) "in the twinkling of an eye".

Also, if Paul were only speaking to the Christians of Corinth and himself (we), and teaching them that not all the Corinthians would die (sleep), then he was a false prophet - for they all did die .

Acts 17:31-32 "…He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter."

I’ll wait until the resurrection actually happens before I risk overthrowing the faith of some.



PS - Unteachable Matthew? Why can’t you, or other full-preterists answer my Nero question? I know why. Because unless you abandon your presupposition that Nero was the beast, it is UNANSWERABLE! Who’s unteachable?

 

[sheshisown]

Hello gents~

Now I am no arguer over these issues... because like R C Sproul says I also think;

"Debates over eschatology will continue until the Lord's return," writes Sproul. "The divisions that exist within the Christian community are understandable. The subject matter and the literary genre of prophecy are both exceedingly difficult." (Sproul) :yes

So really some arguments are simply a waste of the time we have been granted... though certainly not all. We ought to seek to know where we stand and to see to it we stand firmly in the Lord's word, especially in this area. :yes

Now I have only recently become a listener to R C Sproul's sermons, Reformer Theology. He is a calvinist, which I am not, and I really do not know where he stands in escatology. But the website listed as a Sproul source...? Or maybe Vic, you were referring to the commentary he made there? Probably I am missing something.

Also just so I am clear I have two definitions I want to run by you guys. let me know if these are correct.

From the National Preterist Society @

http://www.preterist.org/whatispreterism.asp

"Preterist" means past in fulfillment, and "Futurist" means future in fulfillment. Preterist basically means the opposite of Futurist. Futurists believe most end-time prophecies (especially the big three major ones - Parousia, Resur., and Judgment) are yet to be fulfilled. Preterists believe that most or all of Bible Prophecy (especially the big three events) has already been fulfilled in Christ and the on-going expansion of His Kingdom. Most Futurists do not really believe Christ has been successful yet in fully establishing His kingdom.

AND you can clarify Vic on this one... :D From this website http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/Historist.htm

In brief, Historicism teaches that biblical predictions are being fulfilled throughout history and continue to be fulfilled today. The Book of Revelation is a pre-written history of the Church from the time of its writing to the future Second Advent of Christ, which shall usher in the new heaven and new earth.

Historicists agree on the following unique concepts:

•The "Year-Day" principle - In prophetic language, a day of symbolic time represents a year of actual, historic time.

•The "Time, Times and Half a time," "3 1/2 years," "1260 days", and "42 month" time period, which occurs seven times in Daniel and Revelation, is understood by Historicists to be fulfilled in history.

•All Historicists believe that the Papacy is that Anti-Christ, the Man of Sin of II Thessalonians 2, and a Beast of Revelation 13.

•Historicists generally agree Revelation 9 speaks of the Muslim scourge which afflicted Christendom.

•All Historicists agree that the Book of Revelation prophesies the history of the Church from the Apostolic Era to the future Second Advent of Jesus Christ.

I guess I am a Futurist... ?

bonnie

 

[Vic C.]

Bonnie, I agree with some of the Historicist's points above and disagree with some also. Interesting that the most important one which they consider messianic, is missing. That is their belief on the nature and timing of the 70th. week. That is the one beliefs of their that sets up their entire End Times belief system.

Now I have only recently become a listener to R C Sproul's sermons, Reformer Theology. He is a calvinist, which I am not, and I really do not know where he stands in escatology. But the website listed as a Sproul source...? Or maybe Vic, you were referring to the commentary he made there?

Sproul is a partial preterist. Yes, he is a Calvinist also. I hope that isn't a deterrent for anyone who wanted to study his work. Yes, I was only referring to the Sproul comment, but there is some good reading on that link. :yes

 

[sheshisown]

It does not deter me me one iota... his theology is very sound. I love his ideas have consequences series, and huermanutics books. I am delving into the teachings at Ligonier Ministries online. Marvelous truly foundational work. :D

I have ordered much some of his studies, especially in the philosophy area, because I face a secular philosophy course this summer in Logic. ugh! :o

Talk to you later guy...

bonnie

 

[parousia70]

QUESTION

If I come to Christ as a newcomer under this view, I would believe there is no such thing as a modern day “biblical Antichrist†in your own words.

Interesting.
What of the Newcomer under your view who lived in the 1500's?
Under your view, they were to have believed in an antichrist that was to arise in their day, yes?

Parousia70 I think you know that the example I gave is a modern day example. I certainly don't find this funny.

Nor do I, but your premise is that a modern day newcomer to Christ who embraces preterism is somehow lacking in some christian foundation because they do not believe in a modern day antichrist world ruler.

I am asking you to apply that theory to all of Christain History.

Certainly you would agree that the newcomer to Christ in the 1500's who believed that a Biblical "antichrist world ruler" was going to arise in their lifetime would have been wrong to believe in such , yes?

As you seem to be the other more prominate Preterist on this site may I ask you the same question.I am writing up an article on this and would just like your view perhaps for the record.

Flattery wont get you anywhere with me you know ;-)

I pose the question in modern day and ask if you would accept the mark from such a world leader in the modern day. Just in case you don't understand what modern day is that would be now like 2009 or years to follow. Yes or No would you accept the mark in the example below.

Lets say for example a world leader arose out of the E.U. He ultimately asked people to accept a mark or an rfid chip implant or they would be unable to buy or sell. This of course like everything in endtimes (my views not yours) came in the name of peace and security. So if I understand correctly, you would gladly accept this mark as you would be convinced there is no biblical Antichrist. What would your response to that be ?? Would you accept this mark knowing that if you didn't you would not be able to buy or sell? I ask you to please tell me what would you do if you were faced with this exact scenario? According to you there are no future signs or warnings. So no matter how much modern day events seem to match the events of Revelation you should have no worries.


So if such a leader was to arise out of ten nations and he matched every single criteria that describes the Antichrist in the bible (I believe there are 46) I should have no worries because it’s just a coincidence.

Sorry nonbel, I simply don't accept your premise since as I mentioned before, the biblical teaching on antichrist is found in 1 & 2 John ONLY, and in none of those 4 passages where antichrist is mentioned in scripture, does it refer to an end time world ruler.
Not even one of them.
You do know this, right?

To your question, before I can answer, please explain how refusing a microchip implant would prevent me from trading the vegetables in my garden with my (also un chipped) neighbor who has goats in his pasture for goat milk or cheese?
(This is a form of buying and selling I do currently, called Bartering).
Indeed, this form of buying and selling (Bartering) is the form that most resembles the original Greek meaning in the text in question.

 

[parousia70]

Oh yeah, Nonbel, you sent Matt 24:34 over here from another thread to debate when he asked you what you meant when you said "soon".
Now thast we are in the thread of your choosing, Why don't you enlighten us?
Do you have the same meaning for "Soon" as Jesus and the apostles did, or is yours different?

 

[nonbelieverforums]

To your question, before I can answer, please explain how refusing a microchip implant would prevent me from trading the vegetables in my garden with my (also un chipped) neighbor who has goats in his pasture for goat milk or cheese?
(This is a form of buying and selling I do currently, called Bartering).
Indeed, this form of buying and selling (Bartering) is the form that most resembles the original Greek meaning in the text in question.

I take your answer as a cop out to the question. When your ready to take the question seriously I would welcome your answer. But since were being silly to the topic....

Barter is completely taxable and must be reported as income in most parts of the world. Will you be paying your taxes to the government with vegetables, goat milk and goat cheese if we move to a cashless system via chipping?? Do you have a mortgage on your farm, property taxes ? Will you be paying your bills via barter? Gas in your vehicles ?

I gave you a scenario and I asked if you would accept this system of buying and selling. A system you will see in this lifetime (lifetime 2009 forward). Will you accept this system as you have nothing to fear with your view. Answer the question.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Oh yeah, Nonbel, you sent Matt 24:34 over here from another thread to debate when he asked you what you meant when you said "soon".
Now thast we are in the thread of your choosing, Why don't you enlighten us?
Do you have the same meaning for "Soon" as Jesus and the apostles did, or is yours different?

My question was:

As we can see now the world slowly turning against Israel as the bible said it would. We can see the Iran Israel conflict esclating.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/ ... 0294.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69axIeq3ZWE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhU4BaW91XE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy5cSNI8suA

As a Christian what would you do if you saw Putin asking Russia to Unite with the Islamic nations to go to war against Israel? Would this be a coincidence or the start of The War of Ezekiel 38–39 ?? Does anyone think this will happen soon ??

====================================
So I guess your answer like everything to do with endtimes is coincidence once again

"Soon" in the above quesiton is 2009 and beyond as in upcoming.. Your welcome to answer this question as well if you can do so in the here and now.

 

[sheshisown]

Just a thought~

[quoteCertainly you would agree that the newcomer to Christ in the 1500's who believed that a Biblical "antichrist world ruler" was going to arise in their lifetime would have been wrong to believe in such , yes?
][/quote]

Do you believe that satan knows the day or the hour of Christ's return... if you even believe that the Lord is still to return that is...? If so~ then why would n't he have a man ready in each generation to become the antichrist filled with satanic power? Haven't we seen many men throughout history that could fit the bill? Hitler. Mussolini, Stalin, Alexander the Great, on and on we could go... ?

bonnie