The pretrib fib

[watchman F]

10 of the many lies told by pretrib teachers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFNjtomi ... r_embedded

 

[Mysteryman]

Why do you believe that pre-trib is a lie ? (I didn't watch the video) But I have read the Word of God.

Curious as to what "you" believe according to the scriptures

IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

Why do you believe that pre-trib is a lie ? (I didn't watch the video) But I have read the Word of God.

Curious as to what "you" believe according to the scriptures

IN Christ - MM

I am a post tribulationis/ historic premillennialist. Did you know that the apostles and the first century church were post trib including John and his disciples Polycarp, and Iraenius? Google ''Historical Premillennialism'', you might find it very interesting. However I am not post trib because it is what they first century taught (I found that out after I realize the truth, it only confirmed what I already believed). I am post trib because that is what scripture teaches.

I have a 6 point proof of post trib on this forum already, but I will just share two with you for now.

#1 The bible tells us the rapture is at the coming of Christ.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


#2 The coming of Christ is immediately after the Tribulation.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1+2=3, in other words if the rapture is at the coming of Christ and the coming of Christ is after the Tribulation then that would place the rapture after the Trib as well

 

[Mysteryman]

watchman

I was wondering if you knew these things >>

1. There are two tribulation periods ? (The second being the "wrath of God period")

2. There are 8 administrations/dispensations, and we are in the 5th right now , called "grace" ?

3. The church is not a part of the sixth administration/dispensation ?

4. Every dispensation is a period of time ?

5. Every administration is a ministering during that dispensation ?

6. When a paticular administration (ministering) is over, they comes about a specific change in ministering ?

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[Vic C.]

Um, isn't dispensalionalism as new as pretrib? I'm not sure, but I do not believe historic premillennialists are dispensationalists.

 

[watchman F]

watchman

I was wondering if you knew these things >>

1. There are two tribulation periods ? (The second being the "wrath of God period")

2. There are 8 administrations/dispensations, and we are in the 5th right now , called "grace" ?

3. The church is not a part of the sixth administration/dispensation ?

4. Every dispensation is a period of time ?

5. Every administration is a ministering during that dispensation ?

6. When a paticular administration (ministering) is over, they comes about a specific change in ministering ?

Love IN Christ - MM

I think your error is rooted in dispensationalism. The whole theology of despensationalism is false, and the lie of the pretrib rapture is just one symptom of the root deception which is dispensationalism.

 

[watchman F]

Um, isn't dispensalionalism as new as pretrib? I'm not sure, but I do not believe historic premillennialists are dispensationalists.

You are right Vic Historical Premillennialist are not dispensationalist, matter of fact we are totally opposed to the idea, as would the apostles, and 1st century church be.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

At one time I thought this lie was taught by man so as to comfort those with little or no faith.
Most people want to hear what makes them happy and will pay the preacher to say what they want to hear.But there has always been this thought in my mind that God has sent them a strong delusion so that they should trust in this lie.Anyways,I wouldnt expect many pre tribbers will see the day of the Lord approaching and that day will come upon them as a thief in the night for they watch not the signs of the times nor do they even believe there is anything to see.

 

[Mysteryman]

watchman

I was wondering if you knew these things >>

1. There are two tribulation periods ? (The second being the "wrath of God period")

2. There are 8 administrations/dispensations, and we are in the 5th right now , called "grace" ?

3. The church is not a part of the sixth administration/dispensation ?

4. Every dispensation is a period of time ?

5. Every administration is a ministering during that dispensation ?

6. When a paticular administration (ministering) is over, they comes about a specific change in ministering ?

Love IN Christ - MM

I think your error is rooted in dispensationalism. The whole theology of despensationalism is false, and the lie of the pretrib rapture is just one symptom of the root deception which is dispensationalism.

Hi Watchman

Obviously we find one another on the opposite side of an undersanding. But your comment is a worldly comment with no validity to it whatsoever ! Whenever you equate the beliefs that come directly from scripture, and equate them with a worldy premise. You have a lot of explaining to do. You just as easily could have just cut through the smoke, and said that my beliefs are of this world.

The truth is, the dispensation of grace we live in now, is coming to an end at the end of this administration. The first trib dispensation starts when the grace dispensation is over (ends). This will occur when Christ comes back to "gather up" the church. When that happens, a new dispensation will start. And its called the tribulation period, which is the 6th dispensation. Not to be confused with the great tribulation, which is the 7th dispensation (administration), which is also called the wrath of God period of time.

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[Vic C.]

I've learned over the years that studying the Bible and jumping to extremes doesn't always work. Dispensationalism can be taken to that extreme. Even when I once believed in pretrib, I did not buy into the classic seven point dispensational periods. Now we are to believe there are eight?

I don't fault watchman for the points made.

You say, there is a trib disp and a Great Trib disp. I've never heard that and it seems a bit of a stretch. I'm sure if one really digs deep, they can find other places where they could insert yet another age. Where and when does it end?

You also said Jesus comes when the age of Grace is over, but not before the tribulation period, which comes before the GT period.

Watchman rightly pointed out verses 29-31 of Matthew 24.

Lets start there and see if the two of you can reconcile this alleged contradiction.

Thanks.

 

[Mysteryman]

I've learned over the years that studying the Bible and jumping to extremes doesn't always work. Dispensationalism can be taken to that extreme. Even when I once believed in pretrib, I did not buy into the classic seven point dispensational periods. Now we are to believe there are eight?

I don't fault watchman for the points made.

You say, there is a trib disp and a Great Trib disp. I've never heard that and it seems a bit of a stretch. I'm sure if one really digs deep, they can find other places where they could insert yet another age. Where and when does it end?

You also said Jesus comes when the age of Grace is over, but not before the tribulation period, which comes before the GT period.

Watchman rightly pointed out verses 29-31 of Matthew 24.



Hi Vic

Well, he wrongly pointed out verse 29 - 31 of Matthew 24 !

The sun darkens and the moon shall not give her light, is not going to happen until the "tribulation is over" as per verse 29 < All of this happens during the great tribulation of God and all those accounts can be found in the book of Rev.

The law was a dispensation
We now live in the "grace" dispensation

If you take all of the accounts just before the moon loosing its light and the sun going dark, it is obvious that the trib period mentioned here is the great tribulation, not the trib period.

Before the tribulation period of mankind, the grace dispensation must come to an end.

The eighth is eternal life.

Paul teaches the Thessalonians of the "gathering up of the saints" in II Thess. 2:1 & 2 tells us not to be "troubled".

I would be troubled if I saw the sun not give its light and the moon not give her light. That would mean that I would be living during the wrath of God period. And the Word tells us that wrath cometh upon the children of disobedience. And the word confirms to us in I Thess. 1:10 - "he delivered us from the wrath to come"

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Why in the world would anyone say the grace of God would come to an end?

Doesnt anyone read the bible anymore or do they just make this stuff up as they go along?
I tell you this.If at anytime in any mans life that he believes in Jesus and repents ,God will forgive him.That goes for those during the tribulation as well .

Daniel 11;35
And some of them of understanding shall fall,to try them,and to purge,and to make them white,even to the time of the end;because it is yet for a time appointed.

To the very end.

 

[Mysteryman]

Why in the world would anyone say the grace of God would come to an end?

Doesnt anyone read the bible anymore or do they just make this stuff up as they go along?
I tell you this.If at anytime in any mans life that he believes in Jesus and repents ,God will forgive him.That goes for those during the tribulation as well .

Daniel 11;35
And some of them of understanding shall fall,to try them,and to purge,and to make them white,even to the time of the end;because it is yet for a time appointed.

To the very end.

HI

Are you having trouble following along here ? Well, it appears you are. No one is saying that God's grace is coming to an end ! But the "grace dispensation/administration is coming to an end at the gathering up of the saints.

IN Christ - MM

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Why in the world would anyone say the grace of God would come to an end?

Doesnt anyone read the bible anymore or do they just make this stuff up as they go along?
I tell you this.If at anytime in any mans life that he believes in Jesus and repents ,God will forgive him.That goes for those during the tribulation as well .

Daniel 11;35
And some of them of understanding shall fall,to try them,and to purge,and to make them white,even to the time of the end;because it is yet for a time appointed.

To the very end.

HI

Are you having trouble following along here ? Well, it appears you are. No one is saying that God's grace is coming to an end ! But the "grace dispensation/administration is coming to an end at the gathering up of the saints.

IN Christ - MM

The gathering up of the saints doesnt take place untill the last day .Thats AFTER the tribulation.
You said the grace of God ends before the tribulation.
Are these not your words below?
(Before the tribulation period of mankind, the grace dispensation must come to an end.)

If God doesnt have mercy on anyone during the tribulation then how are these mentioned in Daniel being made white during the tribulation?You cant be made white without having your sins forgiven and recieving the holy spirit .Now you try to keep up.For many years Ive heard your lies so keep your forked tongue behind your teeth.

 

[Mysteryman]

The "grace" dispensation can also be called the dispensation of the "Law of liberty" By God's grace we were saved. But we live during the time period of the "Law of liberty".

 

[NJBeliever]

The pivotal question is this: Is The Second Coming of Christ an expected event or unexpected?

If you think it's expected (which the Bible supports 100%- both believer and heathen will know when Christ is returning to Earth) then post-trib model fails. It's just that simple. Why? because the verses post-tribbers use to support their theory no longer make sense in light of that Biblical truth.

But truth be told, post-trib, pre-trib and pre-wrath are all flawed. This is why this debate can go on endlessly. All 3 major models are incorrect. There is a rapture though. And it precedes the Day of The Lord.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The pivotal question is this: Is The Second Coming of Christ an expected event or unexpected?

If you think it's expected (which the Bible supports 100%- both believer and heathen will know when Christ is returning to Earth) then post-trib model fails. It's just that simple. Why? because the verses post-tribbers use to support their theory no longer make sense in light of that Biblical truth.

But truth be told, post-trib, pre-trib and pre-wrath are all flawed. This is why this debate can go on endlessly. All 3 major models are incorrect. There is a rapture though. And it precedes the Day of The Lord.

Its expected by some and not by others.
Just as in the days of Noah.
Noah expected the flood but not many others did and it came and took them all away.
You ever heard of such a thing as that?You should.

 

[Mysteryman]

Why in the world would anyone say the grace of God would come to an end?

Doesnt anyone read the bible anymore or do they just make this stuff up as they go along?
I tell you this.If at anytime in any mans life that he believes in Jesus and repents ,God will forgive him.That goes for those during the tribulation as well .

Daniel 11;35
And some of them of understanding shall fall,to try them,and to purge,and to make them white,even to the time of the end;because it is yet for a time appointed.

To the very end.

HI

Are you having trouble following along here ? Well, it appears you are. No one is saying that God's grace is coming to an end ! But the "grace dispensation/administration is coming to an end at the gathering up of the saints.

IN Christ - MM

The gathering up of the saints doesnt take place untill the last day .Thats AFTER the tribulation.
You said the grace of God ends before the tribulation.
Are these not your words below?
(Before the tribulation period of mankind, the grace dispensation must come to an end.)

If God doesnt have mercy on anyone during the tribulation then how are these mentioned in Daniel being made white during the tribulation?You cant be made white without having your sins forgiven and recieving the holy spirit .Now you try to keep up.For many years Ive heard your lies so keep your forked tongue behind your teeth.

You are just confusing what happens when and where and during what period of time.

God's mercy does not change either !

During the tribulation period God will have mercy upon many. But not during the great tribulation period, which is the wrath of God period.

You mentioned the "Last day". But do you fully understand what the "Last Day" is all about ?

John 6:39 & 40 is not talking about the "Last Day", it is talking about the "last day" of the dispensation before the Lord gathers up the church.

The "Last Day" is that notable day of the Lord - Acts 2:20

IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

watchman

I was wondering if you knew these things >>

1. There are two tribulation periods ? (The second being the "wrath of God period")

2. There are 8 administrations/dispensations, and we are in the 5th right now , called "grace" ?

3. The church is not a part of the sixth administration/dispensation ?

4. Every dispensation is a period of time ?

5. Every administration is a ministering during that dispensation ?

6. When a paticular administration (ministering) is over, they comes about a specific change in ministering ?

Love IN Christ - MM

I think your error is rooted in dispensationalism. The whole theology of despensationalism is false, and the lie of the pretrib rapture is just one symptom of the root deception which is dispensationalism.

Hi Watchman

Obviously we find one another on the opposite side of an undersanding. But your comment is a worldly comment with no validity to it whatsoever ! Whenever you equate the beliefs that come directly from scripture, and equate them with a worldy premise. You have a lot of explaining to do. You just as easily could have just cut through the smoke, and said that my beliefs are of this world.

The truth is, the dispensation of grace we live in now, is coming to an end at the end of this administration. The first trib dispensation starts when the grace dispensation is over (ends). This will occur when Christ comes back to "gather up" the church. When that happens, a new dispensation will start. And its called the tribulation period, which is the 6th dispensation. Not to be confused with the great tribulation, which is the 7th dispensation (administration), which is also called the wrath of God period of time.

Love IN Christ - MM

There is no scripture to support dispensationalism, or the pretrib rapture.

 

[watchman F]

I've learned over the years that studying the Bible and jumping to extremes doesn't always work. Dispensationalism can be taken to that extreme. Even when I once believed in pretrib, I did not buy into the classic seven point dispensational periods. Now we are to believe there are eight?

I don't fault watchman for the points made.

You say, there is a trib disp and a Great Trib disp. I've never heard that and it seems a bit of a stretch. I'm sure if one really digs deep, they can find other places where they could insert yet another age. Where and when does it end?

You also said Jesus comes when the age of Grace is over, but not before the tribulation period, which comes before the GT period.

Watchman rightly pointed out verses 29-31 of Matthew 24.

Hi Vic

Well, he wrongly pointed out verse 29 - 31 of Matthew 24 !

The sun darkens and the moon shall not give her light, is not going to happen until the "tribulation is over" as per verse 29 < All of this happens during the great tribulation of God and all those accounts can be found in the book of Rev.

This is wrong. When Matthew 24:29 says immediately after the ''tribulation of those days'', He was not referring to a tribulation that came before the Great Tribulation, He was referring to the Great Tribulation itself, as we can easily prove by starting at verse 21 and reading it in context.
Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no question that the tribulation Jesus was referring to WAS The Great Trib, and not a Tribulation that occurs before it.