The pretrib fib

[watchman F]

You, like many post-tribbers, are incorrectly reading Scripture. You are confusing the Day of The Lord with the Second Coming of Christ to Earth. They are two different things.

Not according to scripture.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

So the Day of the Lord is the when sun turns dark, the moon into blood, when the Lord will come with both wrath and anger so lets see when that happens.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Turns out according to scripture the Day of the Lord itself is after the Great Trib, and is at the 2nd coming of Christ. Seems like posttribbers have correctly interpreted scripture and that Day of the lord, and the 2nd coming are not two separate events.

 

[watchman F]

OK, can we forgo the, "I'm right, you're wrong" comments for a while? Thanks. There is not one person on earth who is 100% about matters of eschatology.

Dispensationalism in itself is not entirely false. I know of at least two periods; Old and new covenants. Plus, if you really study the OT, you will find Grace was evident for sure (Hebrews tells us as much). The problem is with some of the more unorthodox beliefs that accompany dispensationalism. One of them is this idea that there is one new covenant and plan for salvation for the Jews and another covenant and salvation plan for the Ekklesia.

Another is the notion that the Ekklesia will not experience tribulation. That goes against the entire history of Christendom. I guess the Lord forgot the mention this to the apostles and the martyred ECFs, for we know they suffered persecution.

Yet another notion is the one that states that the GT is from God; that it's His wrath. That isn't true either. Tribulation is of the world (Satan) and Wrath is from above (God). Jesus Himself said we will face tribulation in this world.

It would be wise for anyone (including myself) who is interested in End Times, to earnestly study from all angles and to not be so stiff-necked when it comes to anything outside your accepted belief. You just may stumble upon Biblical treasures you've never considered before.

The next thing that comes to mind is how the Biblical definition of antichrist gets swept under the carpet by some... even some who should know better.

I don't even dare mention my issues with today's interpretation of Daniel 9-24-27.

Excellent post Vic.

 

[Mysteryman]

Watchman

The truth is, that I can show you. But the problem is, is that you will not meet me half way.

Let me ask you a question - When Christ comes back, the second coming, do the saints come back with him ?

#1 I have met you halfway. I showed you why I believe as I do with scripture. It is you that refuses to do likewise.

#2 Yes we return with Christ. The souls of the dead return with Christ from Heaven and there immortal bodies are raised from the grave to be united with their souls, and then we who are alive and have survived the Tribulation will be changed into our immortal perfected bodies, caught up to meet them (Jesus, and the resurrected just) in the air, and the continue with Christ on His descension toward the Earth for the millennium.

Hi Watchman

No you have not meet me half way. But you can believe that you have, if you wish.

In your # 2 you claim that the souls of the dead return with Christ from heaven and their immortal bodies are raised from the grave to be united with their souls. etc. etc.

You might not realize this, but your comments in # 2 are not even biblical ! And I know you can not provide evidence for this from the scriptures ! That is, unless you twist the scriptures so bad, while not making any sense whatsoever. Now , right here is your downfall within your research of scripture ! It is called "private interpretation" ! No wonder you fail to understand scripture. You are not reading what is written !

Let me ask you, when do the souls go to heaven, and what is a soul ? The answer you supply us with, should be very, very interesting to say the least.

Another question, and this one will be just as interesting if not more so -- What do you think a mortal body is ? Remembering that Mortal shall put on immortality !

IN Christ - MM

 

[Mysteryman]

OK, can we forgo the, "I'm right, you're wrong" comments for a while? Thanks. There is not one person on earth who is 100% about matters of eschatology.

Dispensationalism in itself is not entirely false. I know of at least two periods; Old and new covenants. Plus, if you really study the OT, you will find Grace was evident for sure (Hebrews tells us as much). The problem is with some of the more unorthodox beliefs that accompany dispensationalism. One of them is this idea that there is one new covenant and plan for salvation for the Jews and another covenant and salvation plan for the Ekklesia.

Another is the notion that the Ekklesia will not experience tribulation. That goes against the entire history of Christendom. I guess the Lord forgot the mention this to the apostles and the martyred ECFs, for we know they suffered persecution.

Yet another notion is the one that states that the GT is from God; that it's His wrath. That isn't true either. Tribulation is of the world (Satan) and Wrath is from above (God). Jesus Himself said we will face tribulation in this world.

It would be wise for anyone (including myself) who is interested in End Times, to earnestly study from all angles and to not be so stiff-necked when it comes to anything outside your accepted belief. You just may stumble upon Biblical treasures you've never considered before.

The next thing that comes to mind is how the Biblical definition of antichrist gets swept under the carpet by some... even some who should know better.

I don't even dare mention my issues with today's interpretation of Daniel 9-24-27.

Hi Vic

Well, I don't know about you, but there is plenty of tribulation going on every day, in case you havn't noticed . This is the grace dispensation and the apostle Paul is evidence that there is plenty of tribulation going on during the grace dispensation.

And Jesus said that those of the world would hate you. Seems like the apostles didn't use up all of the tribulation of our dispensation we now live in. Seems like plenty of tribulation for everyone to go around.

But the word "tribulation" has a specific meaning of time and events. Those specific events takes place during the tribulation dispensation.

Oh, would you do me a favor ? Would you tell watchman, that the gathering up of the saints does not take place during the great trib period of time? Another favour, would you tell watchman, that the soul is the soul, and the spirit of man, is the spirit of man ? And would you explain to him what a mortal body is ? If this is a problem , don't worry about it. I will explain it to him for you.

Thanks

 

[watchman F]

Watchman

The truth is, that I can show you. But the problem is, is that you will not meet me half way.

Let me ask you a question - When Christ comes back, the second coming, do the saints come back with him ?

#1 I have met you halfway. I showed you why I believe as I do with scripture. It is you that refuses to do likewise.

#2 Yes we return with Christ. The souls of the dead return with Christ from Heaven and there immortal bodies are raised from the grave to be united with their souls, and then we who are alive and have survived the Tribulation will be changed into our immortal perfected bodies, caught up to meet them (Jesus, and the resurrected just) in the air, and the continue with Christ on His descension toward the Earth for the millennium.

Hi Watchman

No you have not meet me half way. But you can believe that you have, if you wish.

In your # 2 you claim that the souls of the dead return with Christ from heaven and their immortal bodies are raised from the grave to be united with their souls. etc. etc.

You might not realize this, but your comments in # 2 are not even biblical ! And I know you can not provide evidence for this from the scriptures ! That is, unless you twist the scriptures so bad, while not making any sense whatsoever. Now , right here is your downfall within your research of scripture ! It is called "private interpretation" ! No wonder you fail to understand scripture. You are not reading what is written !

Let me ask you, when do the souls go to heaven, and what is a soul ? The answer you supply us with, should be very, very interesting to say the least.

Another question, and this one will be just as interesting if not more so -- What do you think a mortal body is ? Remembering that Mortal shall put on immortality !

IN Christ - MM

Actually i can prove it with out twisting scripture at all, and you should know being a pretribber for they are exp4erts at twisting scripture.

#1 1st Thess 4 13-18 tells us that the dead will come from Heaven with Christ, and that they rise from the grave.
1st Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

How can they do both, exactly how I explained and this is confirm bu Christ in Mark.
Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
The elect are gathered both from Heaven and Earth the dead from Heaven, and the living from earth. Notice this happens at the post trib 2nd coming

1st Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Yep the dead and living both receive incorruptible immortal bodies at the resurrection of the just/rapture.

 

[Mysteryman]

Watchman

When are you going to answer the questions I put forth to you ?

What is a soul ?

Show from scripture where the soul and the body meet up at some point !

What is a mortal body ?

 

[NJBeliever]

You, like many post-tribbers, are incorrectly reading Scripture. You are confusing the Day of The Lord with the Second Coming of Christ to Earth. They are two different things.

Not according to scripture.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

So the Day of the Lord is the when sun turns dark, the moon into blood, when the Lord will come with both wrath and anger so lets see when that happens.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Turns out according to scripture the Day of the Lord itself is after the Great Trib, and is at the 2nd coming of Christ. Seems like posttribbers have correctly interpreted scripture and that Day of the lord, and the 2nd coming are not two separate events.

Wow. You just did exactly what I was talking about. You correctly quote Joel 2:31 as the start of the Day of The Lord. But that event where the sun turns dark and the moon turns RED (not dark) only happens once in the bible: at the 6th Seal in Revelation Chapter 6.

Revelation 6: 12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

So right there we know that is the Day of The Lord, which means it's not the Second Coming (which happens 15 chapters later). This is why I am urging post-tribbers to consider this. It's just a total misreading of Scripture.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Watchman : "#1 1st Thess 4 13-18 tells us that the dead will come from Heaven with Christ, and that they rise from the grave.
1st Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Watchman:

Notice your words at the top that i bolded and underlined !

These verses don't even come close to saying that we come back with Christ ! They do say - "bring with him" > Those who sleep. We who are alive and still here on this earth, when he "comes" to gather up the church will not preceed them which are asleep. We are not up there, we are still here on the earth and those dead in Christ are sleeping. They also are here in the earth. Those alive upon the earth.

The trump of God, then and only then will the dead in Christ rise. And then we are caught up "together" with them in the clouds. < This is going up, not down from heaven !!

What I see you doing Watchman, is that you are trying to make chicken dinner, with Elephant meat.

It is like trying to pawn off a Volkswagon bug and calling it a Mercades Benz. It is also like telling your wife that you bought her a diamond ring, when it is made of glass.

Its like pawning off a fake paper which says the "Declaration of Independance" , and claiming that it is the real deal.

Noting you have said "lines up with scripture ! Except the going up.

IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

Watchman

When are you going to answer the questions I put forth to you ?

What is a soul ?

Show from scripture where the soul and the body meet up at some point !

What is a mortal body ?

#1 Are you a soul sleep believer or do you believe the sould goes to Heaven when we die.

#2 You do not know what a mortal body is?

 

[watchman F]

NJB, Matthew 24:29-31 clearly shows that the sun darkens and the moon turns to blood immediately after the tribulation right before the return of Christ.

 

[freeway]

Watchman F. questions for you?
If the post trib is true, which I do not believe it is and that scripture does not support this "theory" But just for sake of argument let’s say it is true, then answer these questions.
When is the wedding feast of the Lamb and his bride to take place?
Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you, “home†if I go I will come again and get you.
When does the feast of trumpet take place which preludes the wedding?
If we are not raptured until the end “post†and all are changed, who populates the world for the 1000 yr mil.
If Jesus comes as a thief in the night, but at the second coming a sign is given in the heavens.
It says God collects his elect from the four corners of heaven. Why because we are in heaven.
Paul tells us a mystery, “secret†the rapture, harpazo, snatched away, whatever, we will not all sleep.
It will be like the time of Noah, “Normal†at the second coming "post rapture?" Antichrist, false prophet, 144000 Billy Grahams, Beheadings, oceans turned to blood, no green vegetation all has been burnt up. The whole world non believers, will be cover will sores. Demon type locust from the bottomless pit upon mankind. The sun hotter than ever to burn man. Angels flying through the sky preaching the gospel. The armies of the world in the valley of Megiddo at war. Earth quakes have level every mountain and every island has disappeared form the earth. Three quarter of man has been killed. Men are praying for the rocks to fall on them. I could go on but you get the point. If this is normal, then what is un-normal. I am in no way questioning Jesus, but merely questioning your interpretation of scriptures.

 

[veteran]

Wow. You just did exactly what I was talking about. You correctly quote Joel 2:31 as the start of the Day of The Lord. But that event where the sun turns dark and the moon turns RED (not dark) only happens once in the bible: at the 6th Seal in Revelation Chapter 6.

Revelation 6: 12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

So right there we know that is the Day of The Lord, which means it's not the Second Coming (which happens 15 chapters later). This is why I am urging post-tribbers to consider this. It's just a total misreading of Scripture.

NJBeliever, et all:

God's Word does define 'the day of The Lord' as the time of Christ's coming to gather us. Both Apostle Peter and Paul covered it...

1Thes 5:1-6
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
(KJV)

Apostle Paul hard-linked that 'day of the Lord' with the time of Christ's coming "as a thief". So did Peter...

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

And our Lord Jesus linked the time of His coming with that "as a thief" metaphor...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.(KJV)

AND, our Lord Jesus hard-linked the time of His coming "as a thief" to the Armageddon event...

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)

All we have to do to grasp that, is to simply read the Scripture as written.

Watchman has rightly interpreted per Scripture 'the day of the Lord' as the timing of Christ's second coming, which as he showed from the Matt.24 Scripture is after the great tribulation per our Lord Jesus. That idea of Christ's coming after the tribulation is not watchman's idea, nor an idea that some post-trib school made up. It is the direct words of our Lord Jesus Himself as written there in Matthew 24.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2, Apostle Paul again linked 'the day of the Lord' with the time of Christ's coming to gather us (i.e., what some call the "rapture").

II Th 2:1-2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV)

The phrase "day of Christ" is ACTUALLY "day of the Lord" in the Greek, for in the Greek manuscripts the word 'kurios' (lord) was translated to "Christ". The actual Greek word for "Christ" is Christos. That's how we know Paul was actually talking about "the day of the Lord" there.

 

[NJBeliever]

NJB, Matthew 24:29-31 clearly shows that the sun darkens and the moon turns to blood immediately after the tribulation right before the return of Christ.

No it doesn't. Once again, two different events are being confused. Matt 24 does not say blood, as you well know. The moon changes several times in Revelation. But it only turns to blood ONCE. I have already showed you that scripture and you are just ignoring it at this point. Clearly the Day of The Lord begins at the 6th Seal. You are mixing up events and misreading scripture. And this is why your rapture model fails.

 

[NJBeliever]

NJBeliever, et all:

God's Word does define 'the day of The Lord' as the time of Christ's coming to gather us. Both Apostle Peter and Paul covered it...

1Thes 5:1-6
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
(KJV)

Apostle Paul hard-linked that 'day of the Lord' with the time of Christ's coming "as a thief". So did Peter...

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

And our Lord Jesus linked the time of His coming with that "as a thief" metaphor...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.(KJV)

AND, our Lord Jesus hard-linked the time of His coming "as a thief" to the Armageddon event...

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)

All we have to do to grasp that, is to simply read the Scripture as written.

Watchman has rightly interpreted per Scripture 'the day of the Lord' as the timing of Christ's second coming, which as he showed from the Matt.24 Scripture is after the great tribulation per our Lord Jesus. That idea of Christ's coming after the tribulation is not watchman's idea, nor an idea that some post-trib school made up. It is the direct words of our Lord Jesus Himself as written there in Matthew 24.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2, Apostle Paul again linked 'the day of the Lord' with the time of Christ's coming to gather us (i.e., what some call the "rapture").

II Th 2:1-2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV)

The phrase "day of Christ" is ACTUALLY "day of the Lord" in the Greek, for in the Greek manuscripts the word 'kurios' (lord) was translated to "Christ". The actual Greek word for "Christ" is Christos. That's how we know Paul was actually talking about "the day of the Lord" there.

VETERAN -- You are also confusing Scripture. You should read the Old Testament verses on the Day of The Lord. It has nothing to do with Christ Coming to Earth. It is God The Father's time to pour out his wrath on the heathen world. The New Testament verses you cite are correct, it does come as a thief in the night. What you are not understanding is that when Christ says He will come in the same fashion, He is referring to his Coming in the Clouds to gather His Church. This is the rapture.

I have to say with all due respect, I'm stunned that so many are confusing these two things. This is why it's so important to study the Old Testament as a way to inform your eschatology. Because the Old Testament describes the Day of The Lord in much more detail.

Isaiah 13: 6Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 7Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: 8And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. 9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

The purpose of the Day of The Lord is to pour out God's wrath on unbelievers (which we see in the trumpets and vials). God is even speaking in the first person here. It's HIS Time. It's not about Christ's Second Coming. Notice this is where the "birth pangs" and "sorrows" of Matt 24 are referenced.

Isaiah 2: 12For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, 15And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, 16And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. 17And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.....20In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

And then of course we have Joel 2:31

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

And this is what we see at the 6th Seal of Revelation:

Revelation 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And there it is. We have the prophetic signs (sun black and Moon as BLOOD). We also have a great earthquake that moves every island and mountain on the planet. This passage is clearly the parellel and fulfillment of Isaiah 2. The exact same scene is playing out (the rich and mighty running into caves). THIS is the Day of The Lord. They even proclaim that it's the Day of God's wrath. So Biblically, this is obviously not the Second Coming. Meaning, you and everyone else who is saying that are confusing the two events. Christ speaks of both because He comes in the clouds right BEFORE the Day of The Lord for His Church.

When Paul speak of "our gathering to Him" he is talking about the rapture. That is when we are gathered. This is why the epistle to the Thessalonians was written in the first place. They thought they missed the boat and were in the Day of The Lord. Paul writes to tell them it hasn't happened yet. Which is why he gives some signs (The man of sin being revealed, the falling away) to assure them. Just like he assures them that their dead brothers and sisters in the faith will not be left behind either ("the dead in Christ shall rise first").

When Jesus says one will be in the field and one will be left behind, He is talking about the rapture. In Luke 21, which is the parallel to Matt 24 Jesus says: Luke 21: 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day [The Day of The Lord] come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Jesus said "escape ALL THESE things", meaning believers can escape the entire Day of The Lord. That is the rapture. The dead in Christ and the saints who are alive, will escape the earth when God rises to punish it.

Isiah 26:19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

That is the rapture. The church is raptured, God then rises to pour out his wrath - which is the Day of The Lord. And it happens at the 6th Seal. And it's not Christ's Second Coming. Again, I really think people should study the Old Testament more because it confirms all of this. There's just no real way to look at OT Scripture on the Day of The Lord and see it as Christ's return to Earth. It's God The Father's time. God bless.

 

[veteran]

At one time I thought this lie was taught by man so as to comfort those with little or no faith.
Most people want to hear what makes them happy and will pay the preacher to say what they want to hear. But there has always been this thought in my mind that God has sent them a strong delusion so that they should trust in this lie. Anyways,I wouldnt expect many pre tribbers will see the day of the Lord approaching and that day will come upon them as a thief in the night for they watch not the signs of the times nor do they even believe there is anything to see.

That idea would make another good thread discussion. For one who is well studied in all... of God's Word, men's doctrines simply cannot compare with the straight line within Holy Writ. I had often wondered years ago during my early Bible studies, if the pre-trib idea was just some idea a few of the deceived hap-hazardly fell into (like from Margaret McDonald's death-bed hallucinations in 1830's Britain of wildly quoting Scripture out of context). Since doing deeper Bible study, I've learned even the Old Testament hints at the pre-trib "secret rapture" as delusion (for the Pre-Trib folks, no, I'm not just saying this to rub anything in your face). See all of Ezekiel 13, but especially the very last section of that chapter. Isaiah 28 is another hint, for God uses Isaiah there to mock those who saw God's Word as hard to become a workman in, since many do not like It being "precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little."

Isa 28:9-13
9 Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people.
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing": yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.(KJV)

I actually heard that Isaiah 28 example being totally mistaught to mean those who DO study God's Word line upon line being the ones deceived, snared, broken, and taken! In the Hebrew that "precept upon precept, precept upon..." reads like a rhyming song. God is mocking the teachers who refuse to stay in His Word line upon line, that's what the Message there is really about.

How many Churches today cover ALL of God's Word in that "line upon line" fashion? VERY... few. Some that do won't cover the Old Testament Books, which are just as important today as ever. Most Churches create a Message to preach on pulling from a few verses, and many times the message will not fit the Scripture line upon line. That's how we verify the message coming from the pulpit, by going directly to God's Word and comparing with Scripture "precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little."

I strongly believe (really I know), that if God's Word is... studied line upon line, like our Heavenly Father showed there in Isaiah 28, the believer will not fail. There is an action by The Holy Spirit that takes place during the process, God blessing the believer who takes time to do that. MUCH of His Word becomes actually 'sealed' in your mind by The Holy Spirit. When studying later, The Holy Spirit will remind you of something you may have covered years ago. Without doing it God's Way, line upon line, a believer would never know, because why should God bless their understanding without studying His Way? Jump through The Bible in study, and that's the type of understanding one will have, jump and jive, and no real sealing in God's Word.

And there's the problem. The result of not doing it God's Way means His Word becomes a 'stumbling', a "rock of offense" (Isaiah 8; 1 Peter 2). And the end effect is to "...fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." This is why for the end of days, our Lord Jesus showed in Luke 17 it's the deceived that are the first ones 'taken' in the field. They don't 'watch' like our Lord Jesus said to do, nor care about the times and the seasons, they don't even know WHAT to watch for because they won't study God's Word line upon line like He showed. What else can they be subject to but the "strong delusion" coming in our near future?

 

[Mysteryman]

Watchman

When are you going to answer the questions I put forth to you ?

What is a soul ?

Show from scripture where the soul and the body meet up at some point !

What is a mortal body ?

#1 Are you a soul sleep believer or do you believe the sould goes to Heaven when we die.

#2 You do not know what a mortal body is?

Hi Watchman

This conversation is not going anywhere. The reason it is not going anywhere is because of your refusal to answer questions, and reply in a manner that is based upon logic.

One - When I ask you a question, people who want a logical conversation will give an answer.

Two - When someone gets close enough to a part of the topic that you disagree with, you totally avoid answering.

Three - The lack of logic in your replies shows that you are hiding something. The more we squeeze that which you are hiding out of you, the more exposed your untruths become. So you avoid as much as possible that which will expose those things you are hiding.

Okay, so far this is what we have squeezed out of you >

The soul goes to heaven ( But you will not show scripture, thus only your opinion or religious belief)

The soul meets up with the raised body at some point in time (Again , no scripture, opinion or religious belief)

You mention the word "Mortal" and have no idea what the word means. So you ignore answering because of your lack or inability to answer with any reasonable and logical reply.

You believe in the theory that when you die, you don't really die, you just go to heaven < And even though these are not your own words, this is what you are saying, by telling us that at some point after you die, the soul goes to heaven.

You refuse to define soul , as it will reveal more of your ignorance on this subject, so you avoid answering at all cost.

You refuse to define what the word "Mortal" means for the same reason. It will reveal more of your ignorance and will also reveal the untruth you are proposing within this thread.

You see Watchman, the more you become squeezed to give a reply, the more you reveal . Either it is your ignorance, or lack of knowledge of the Word. Or it could be deeper than that.

Now I give you a chance to redeem yourslef. Answer the questions >

1. What is your soul ?

2. What does the word "Mortal" mean ?

3. Show scripture where the soul and the raised body meet up with each other ?

4. Could you please explain the difference between up and down ? < You don't seem to understand the difference, so I thought I would ask for clarification here !

5. Do you know what the - "Spirit of man" - is ?

6. Do you know the difference between these three - Body - Soul - Spirit ? And if so, please explain the difference.

7. Do you know what the words - "comfort one another with these words" -- means ?

If you avoid any one of these questions, we all will know that you are hiding something from us.

Awaiting your reply

IN Christ - MM

 

[veteran]

NJBeliever, et all:

VETERAN -- You are also confusing Scripture. You should read the Old Testament verses on the Day of The Lord. It has nothing to do with Christ Coming to Earth. It is God The Father's time to pour out his wrath on the heathen world. The New Testament verses you cite are correct, it does come as a thief in the night. What you are not understanding is that when Christ says He will come in the same fashion, He is referring to his Coming in the Clouds to gather His Church. This is the rapture.

I have to say with all due respect, I'm stunned that so many are confusing these two things. This is why it's so important to study the Old Testament as a way to inform your eschatology. Because the Old Testament describes the Day of The Lord in much more detail.

You mean this "day of the Lord"?

Jer 46:9-10
9 Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.
10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that He may avenge Him of His adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
(KJV)

That particular "day of the Lord" there was history, the time when God destroyed the historical kingdom of Babylon, but in order to release whom? His People, who were captive then to Babylon. Do you notice the river Euphrates mentioned there maybe? How does that RELATE to our Lord's Book of Revelation as an "ensample"? It's like what I've already covered...

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
(KJV)

Our gathering to Christ happens when Christ comes ONCE more, which is to END the "great tribulation" He taught in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. And that timing is ON the "day of the Lord" like Paul and Peter both showed linked with that "as a thief in the night" metaphor.

Did God's People escape His wrath upon historical Babylon when it was conquered by Cyrus the great? Yep. Did God's Peope escape God's wrath upon Egypt with the plagues? Yep. That's our Biblical "ensample" for the end also for the "great tribulation". It's God's Wrath which ENDS the "great tribulation", because that's when Christ returns to gather His saints like He said in Matthew 24:29-30.


You might also want to continue the teaching our Lord Jesus gave about the first 'taken' in the field. It's not about His servants...

Luke 17:36-37
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)

Matt 24:26-28
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)

For the sake of others I'll explain. In the Luke 17 example, Christ's discples EVENTUALLY ask Him just "Where, Lord?", that first one taken would be taken... to. He says wheresoever the body is, that's where the eagles will be gathered. WOW! That's THE RAPTURE, isn't it!? Wait a minute.... Then in the Matthew 24 version of that gathering to the eagles, He says wheresoever THE CARCASE (dead body) is, that's... where the eagles will be gathered! Along with that Matt.24:24-28 example He shows how some are deceived by 'a pseudo Christ' ("false Christs" in Matt.24:24 is Greek 'pseudochristos'), when He warned when some begin saying, He's in the desert, or in the secret chambers, to "believe it not"!

The REAL meaning of the first one taken in the field per our Lord Jesus, is the first one taken is taken into DECEPTION. It's the ones remaining in the field (world), found doing our Lord's work, that He will count faithful when He returns to gather them. Just prior to that warning in Luke 17 of being 'taken', our Lord Jesus gave this little riddle which goes along with that 'taken' event...

Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
(KJV)

Who is it there that will lose their life per that? Those who seek to SAVE their life. It's those who remain and stand in Christ that are willing to lose their life (in this world) that will preserve their souls. What is the first one taken in the field doing? Seeking to save their life; that's the idea of seeking to save their life through escape (i.e., pre-trib rapture). Those who stand in Christ going through the tribulation do not worry about escaping the tribulation, for we are ready to serve Christ, and WILL remain doing so, all the way to the end when He returns to end the tribulation. We will wait on Him like He said. We will not be like a dead "carcase" taken wheresover the false eagles will be (i.e., the deceived).

 

[NJBeliever]

Wow. I'm still stunned.

You mean this "day of the Lord"?

Jer 46:9-10
9 Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.
10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that He may avenge Him of His adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
(KJV)

That particular "day of the Lord" there was history, the time when God destroyed the historical kingdom of Babylon, but in order to release whom? His People, who were captive then to Babylon. Do you notice the river Euphrates mentioned there maybe? How does that RELATE to our Lord's Book of Revelation as an "ensample"? It's like what I've already covered...

The Day of The Lord has not happened yet. You are just ignoring the Scriptures I posted. Joel 2:31 only happens ONCE in the Bible. It has not happened yet. Revelation's 6th Seal is clearly the fulfillment of Joel 2:31 and Isiah 2. That is the day of The Lord. The Sun turns dark and the moon turns to BLOOD. This is a one time event. You are clearly just ignoring this because you cannot reconcile it with your theology. The 6th Seal is the fulfilment of Isaiah 2. It's just that simple. This point alone disproves your theory. The Day of The Lord commences at the 6th Seal.

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
(KJV)

Our gathering to Christ happens when Christ comes ONCE more, which is to END the "great tribulation" He taught in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. And that timing is ON the "day of the Lord" like Paul and Peter both showed linked with that "as a thief in the night" metaphor.

Christ's warning in verse 15 is for believers to avoid having to go through all of this. Notice he says keepeth his garments. Look at the 5th Seal of Revelation. The souls of martyrs. What are they given? Robes to wear. The multitude that suddenly appears in heaven in chapter 7 are all wearing their robes. They are the raptured saints. They have keep their garments. Christ is telling this to John in the first century. So he is including a warning just like He did in Matt 24.

Did God's People escape His wrath upon historical Babylon when it was conquered by Cyrus the great? Yep. Did God's Peope escape God's wrath upon Egypt with the plagues? Yep. That's our Biblical "ensample" for the end also for the "great tribulation". It's God's Wrath which ENDS the "great tribulation", because that's when Christ returns to gather His saints like He said in Matthew 24:29-30.

Actually those verses from Matthew show that there is no example for the Day of The Lord. It is not like any event before it. But we can and will escape. And that's what Jesus says in Luke 21:36. Which you also have not addressed.

Luke 17:36-37
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)

Matt 24:26-28
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)

For the sake of others I'll explain. In the Luke 17 example, Christ's discples EVENTUALLY ask Him just "Where, Lord?", that first one taken would be taken... to. He says wheresoever the body is, that's where the eagles will be gathered. WOW! That's THE RAPTURE, isn't it!? Wait a minute.... Then in the Matthew 24 version of that gathering to the eagles, He says wheresoever THE CARCASE (dead body) is, that's... where the eagles will be gathered! Along with that Matt.24:24-28 example He shows how some are deceived by 'a pseudo Christ' ("false Christs" in Matt.24:24 is Greek 'pseudochristos'), when He warned when some begin saying, He's in the desert, or in the secret chambers, to "believe it not"!

You have completely jumbled up Scriptures. This is the passage I am quoting (in context):

Matthew 24: 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

This is the rapture. I know that when Jesus references the carcass earlier in Matthew 24 he's talking about the antichrist. But the passage I am citing is clearly not related to that point. They are two different points but the Gospel writers record information in very different ways (and sometimes out of order) so things can get confusing. Hence the different rendering in Luke. But when examining Matthew this passage is clearly describing the rapture.

Who is it there that will lose their life per that? Those who seek to SAVE their life. It's those who remain and stand in Christ that are willing to lose their life (in this world) that will preserve their souls. What is the first one taken in the field doing? Seeking to save their life; that's the idea of seeking to save their life through escape (i.e., pre-trib rapture). Those who stand in Christ going through the tribulation do not worry about escaping the tribulation, for we are ready to serve Christ, and WILL remain doing so, all the way to the end when He returns to end the tribulation. We will wait on Him like He said. We will not be like a dead "carcase" taken wheresover the false eagles will be (i.e., the deceived).

Again, you have just skipped everything I posted which shows that the day of the Lord happens at the 6th seal. You don't even attempt to explain why the verses I cite are wrong. The Old Testament provides all of the signs (earthquake, blood moon, sky rolling as a scroll, rich and powerful running into caves) and the 6th seal repeats them almost verbatim. You are just moving it to 15 chapters later with no Biblical warrant. This is again, why the post-trib model fails. I don't know why everyone clings so loyally to their rapture models. All of the big 3 rapture models are wrong. I was once a pre-trib believer but when I received Biblical correction, I realized I was wrong. It's okay to just say you're wrong and adjust and just move on. The Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming. When you study the Old Testament it's obvious. It's just a complete misreading of Scripture.

The rapture precedes the Day of The Lord.

Luke 21: 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[NJBeliever]

Even if you think it about just logicially, the Second Coming of Christ is EXPECTED. It's not a thief in the night situation. Everyone knows He's coming, which is why the antichrist and the armies of the world are gathering together to fight him. And anyone with a Bible can just look at all of the trumpet and vial judgments and know exactly what's going to happen next. Or they can count 7 prophetic years. So clearly, it's not catching anyone off guard. At that point you have to know the "thief in the night" verses are describing a different event.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Watchman F. questions for you?
If the post trib is true, which I do not believe it is and that scripture does not support this "theory" But just for sake of argument let’s say it is true, then answer these questions.
When is the wedding feast of the Lamb and his bride to take place?
Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you, “home†if I go I will come again and get you.
When does the feast of trumpet take place which preludes the wedding?
If we are not raptured until the end “post†and all are changed, who populates the world for the 1000 yr mil.
If Jesus comes as a thief in the night, but at the second coming a sign is given in the heavens.
It says God collects his elect from the four corners of heaven. Why because we are in heaven.
Paul tells us a mystery, “secret†the rapture, harpazo, snatched away, whatever, we will not all sleep.
It will be like the time of Noah, “Normal†at the second coming "post rapture?" Antichrist, false prophet, 144000 Billy Grahams, Beheadings, oceans turned to blood, no green vegetation all has been burnt up. The whole world non believers, will be cover will sores. Demon type locust from the bottomless pit upon mankind. The sun hotter than ever to burn man. Angels flying through the sky preaching the gospel. The armies of the world in the valley of Megiddo at war. Earth quakes have level every mountain and every island has disappeared form the earth. Three quarter of man has been killed. Men are praying for the rocks to fall on them. I could go on but you get the point. If this is normal, then what is un-normal. I am in no way questioning Jesus, but merely questioning your interpretation of scriptures.

hi, i know this post wasnt to me but since a whole other thing is going on here too i want to answer some of it if you do not mind.*Q"Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you, “home†if I go I will come again and get you."
A.When you read this whole chapter you will find that the place He is preparing for us is US as the temple the habitation of the Lord. He tells us elsewhere that He must go so that the Holy SPirit can come and dwell IN US. Paul shows us that we become the temple- the house of God when His Spirit lives in us.He went to heaven so He could come again to us In the Holy Spirit to swell in our bodies and make us the house of God.- Now we are tne temple of God. But we will put on our perfect innoccruptable bodies at His coming but that is not what this chapter is about.

QIf we are not raptured until the end “post†and all are changed, who populates the world for the 1000 yr mil.
A. The wicked nations populate the millenium. We beleivers are changed and rewarded and rule and reign on thrones in heaven during the mill reighn. and those on earth we are ruling over are the nations.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

Q If Jesus comes as a thief in the night, but at the second coming a sign is given in the heavens.

A Jesus comes to them as a thief because they did not know He was going to come, they were too busy minding worldly lusts to be aware of the hour of his coming. It does not mean that when He comes they dont know He is there- it means that His coming takes them by suprise.The term theif in the night was about the prsits who were to stay awake and keep the fires buringing at the temple. When they would fall asleep and get caught sleeping coals of the fire would get put on their clothing until they were all caught fire and they would WAKE UP on fire and their clothes burning off and they would run away with their nakedness exposed. So it was always about being caught off guard but having your sleep awakened now that it was toooo late.

Q "It says God collects his elect from the four corners of heaven. Why because we are in heaven."

A Because some of us are asleep- dead- and some of us are on earth all over the earth. he raises the dead in Christ first and then we who are alive are caught up together with them.

Q Paul tells us a mystery, “secret†the rapture, harpazo, snatched away, whatever, we will not all sleep.

A. A mystery means something that is not revealed to others that is revealed to us. This was true of the gospel uniting jews and gentiles, the purpose of God for the church, and the resurection and rapture of the dead in CHrist.- This does not refer to the literal event being a secret when it happens. it refers to the event being something that is a mystery for only Gods people to understand. Just like Jesus told the disciples, unto you it isi given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God- but unto them it is not given.

Q It will be like the time of Noah, “Normal†at the second coming "post rapture?" Antichrist, false prophet, 144000 Billy Grahams, Beheadings, oceans turned to blood, no green vegetation all has been burnt up. The whole world non believers, will be cover will sores. Demon type locust from the bottomless pit upon mankind. The sun hotter than ever to burn man. Angels flying through the sky preaching the gospel. The armies of the world in the valley of Megiddo at war. Earth quakes have level every mountain and every island has disappeared form the earth. Three quarter of man has been killed. Men are praying for the rocks to fall on them. I could go on but you get the point. If this is normal, then what is un-normal

A.Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The assumption that this is " normal" is not an accurate one. It does not say that the world will be normal, only that they will still be marrying and giving in marriage, eating and drinking. This shows us that they are still stiving to live worldly oblivious lives. The harder things get on worldly people, the more they STRIVE for worldly comfort. We see that even in rev 11 with the two witnesses when they are killed everyone gives gifts to each otherRev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Just because people are marrying and drinking does not mean that things on earth are not bad. However besides that many of the things in revelation are not as they appear in the letter. Not everything we read is physical but some is also spiritual and those who were already spiritually dead will not notice those things happening at all.

hope this helps some.