The pretrib fib

[watchman F]

Never said that Jesus returns at the 7th Trump i said He returns at the last trump, which if not the 7th trump has to be after the 7th trump as it is the LAST TRUMP. Like I said if scripture meant wehat it said you couldn;t be a pretribber.

So wait, now the Last Trump is NOT the 7th Trump???? Then when is the last trump? Are you saying it's not even in the Bible, because there are no trumps after the 7th in Revelation. Wow.

[quote="watchman F":351cftev]So let me ask you this, is or is not 1st Thess 4:15 referring the coming of Christ when it says coming of Christ?

1st Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

If you say (as you must for the pretrib theory not to fall) that this is not referring to the coming of Christ, then you further prove my point about the blindness of pretribbers. But this blindness is a must for them to continue in their false belief

As I stated Christ is coming in the clouds to gather His church until the indignation is overpast. That is the rapture. Once it is over He will return to Earth to wipe out His enemies and reign in righteousness. But again, you are just ignoring the verses I posted, even though they show the type and purpose of the rapture (which I don't think you understand - like I said, The Day of The Lord is not about you, it's about God The Father).

Of course this passage above from Thessalonians could seem like the Second Coming. That's why you and others keep confusing it and misinterpreting Scripture. Even if you knew why Paul wrote this epistle you'd have a better understanding of why this is not the Second Coming being described. You need to study the oracles as the Bible tells us to. but instead of doing that and getting deep into the Old Testament, you are just making your own theories (like your invisible, never-mentioned "last trump") and giving out snide remarks.[/quote:351cftev]You have proved my point. Not only is the last trump not the last trump, but the coming of Christ is not the coming of Christ either. Now is their a resurrection before the first resurrection mention in Revelation 20?

 

[Biblereader]

Have you tried reasoning with a liberal lately?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWv53OJ-ydI&feature=re...

 

[Andrew]

Have you tried reasoning with a liberal lately?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWv53OJ-ydI&feature=re...

LOL, perfect!

 

[NJBeliever]

Again, I'll just go back to the simple version:

As stated before: Isaiah 2 is fulfilled at the 6th Seal of Revelation.

That is the Day of The Lord.

The Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming of Christ.

The post-trib model fails on this point alone.

IF I am wrong about the above two passages, just show it to me.

 

[Biblereader]

Have you tried reasoning with a liberal lately?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWv53OJ-ydI&feature=re...

LOL, perfect!

HEH,HEH, HEH!

 

[Biblereader]

JESUS COMES BACK IN A CLOUD, TAKES THE BELIEVERS UP TO HEAVEN, AND THEN THE 7TH TRUMPET, THE WRATH OF GOD HAPPENS. SEE REVELATION CHAPTERS
14 AND 16
IN 14: 14: And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15: And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16: And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

See? Jesus comes back, and takes us, the HARVEST, back to Heaven with him.
Then, in Ch. 16, the angel says to pour out the first bowl of WRATH.
We are not appointed to wrath, but, we are not exempt from suffering.

revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

But yet, after the 7th trumpet (which is the 3rd woe), we don't see Christ appear. Where is he???? Why do we not see him?

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

What's all those above events about given there? Just because there's no direct passage there with the words 'Christ's coming' you throw away all those events written there. No wonder you don't understand the events Paul gave in 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 are both about the time of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him on the final trump. Moreover, that's also why you refuse to accept the order Christ gave in Matthew 24 about His coming after that tribulation. If you won't accept that simple order He gave in Matt.24, then I suppose you wouldn't accept those Rev.11 events of His coming on the 7th trumpet either.

Isa 27:12-13
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
(KJV)

That's the event of 1 Thess.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:52.

Furthermore, the Isaiah 26:19-21 Scripture must be read in context with the previous Isaiah chapters, because the first verse of Isaiah 26:1 continues the subject of the previous chapter with "In that day...". And just what might be the subject of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter, and before? The day of The LORD events to end wickedness upon this earth. Even the very FIRST verse of Isaiah 26 is giving yet another timing marker. Can anyone guess what it is?...

Isa 26:1
1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
(KJV)

So what's the events of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter? It's the events of the "last trump" which Paul was pulling from in 1 Cor.15...

The events of the "last trump" Paul was teaching is about the resurrection time, and the punishment upon the wicked on earth, with their strongholds being brought down to the dust. ALL THAT is definitely at the END of the tribulation. Those are the same type of events covered on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period at the end of Revelation 11.

First of all, the prophecy in Isaiah 26 that I cite is not a direct sequence of events with chapter 25. It is a song that is going to be sung at the end times. And that song ENDS at verse 18. I quoted from verse 19, which is God speaking for Himself now (as opposed to detailing the song that we are going to be singing to Him).

That particular Isaiah 26 chapter is within a group of chapters some Bible scholars call the 'Apocalypse of Isaiah'. It is not ONLY the Isaiah 26 chapter, so the subject flows within a group of chapters, beginning with burdens and continuing with WOE's. God is showing the events of the last days, another parallel study that goes with The Book of Revelation. The timeline keeps moving back and forth, just like Revelation does. That's why that Isa.26:21 verse is especially about the time of HIS WRATH upon the wicked.

Now if the time of His wrath upon the wicked is at the end of the tribulation, then what is that command for His people to go into their chambers to hide until the indignation is past, doing there along with the time of His wrath? What that shows is what I've been saying Revelation shows, that the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His servants, and the time of God's wrath upon the wicked, and the day of The Lord, all happen within the same timeframe, very quickly.

So what does the 'hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be past' in chambers at the end of Isaiah 26 really mean? It means the same kind of thing it meant to the children of Israel when the plagues were poured out upon Egypt. They were told then to not venture out into the night. It does not mean being literally raptured off the earth, but instead, being protected by God from the plagues while still on earth. This is why it's written in the previous Isaiah 25 chapter that they waited for God, and when He appears after the destruction, they say, "...Lo, this is our God, we have waited for Him; and He will save us." (Isa.25:9)..

This might be persuasive except for the fact that you missed the fact that God is speaking to THE DEAD. He is not speaking to living people in this passage! He is talking about dead people. Who will rise up from the grave, go into their chambers and shut the door until the indignation is passed. Again, this is the rapture preceding the Day of The Lord. Obviously there is no need to tell a dead person not to go outside at night or to keep their windows closed. Their dead. This is a prophecy of them being raised from the grave and coming to heaven until GOD THE FATHER is finished punishing the inhabitants of the Earth (which is the day of The Lord).

The events of the resurrection, God's wrath on the day of The Lord, and our gathering to Christ, all happen at the same timeframe. I've already proven by 2 Thess.2:1-3 that Christ's coming and our gathering to Him, and the day of The Lord ("day of Christ") are all the same timing. That's also what the Rev.11:15 forward show too. The chambers idea simply means Christ's servants will be protected on earth while God's wrath will be poured out upon the wicked, at the time of God's consuming fire event. The event of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego not being harmed in the hot fiery furnace, heated seven times hotter than necessary, serves as an ensample of that event. Christ appeared in that furnace with them, and their clothes didn't even smell of smoke when they came out of it. But the servants of the king of Babylon were incinerated immediately just when they came close to it. What's that idea? That we don't have to leave this earth for God to be able to protect us from His wrath poured upon the wicked. Even the end of Rev.20:9 shows this, when God will rain fire upon the Gog army Satan will lead upon the "camp of the saints" on earth at the end of Christ's Milennium reign. Many look at God's consuming fire like literal physical fire man experiences on earth, like it has no control who it burns. God's consuming Fire is much more than that little physical earthly comparison, and He can control it like a laser beam (1 Kings 18:30-38; 2 Kings 1).

Even the "caught up" into the air idea in 1 Thess.4 is about being changed to the "spiritual body" at the twinkling of an eye, at an instant. That is specifically the event Isaiah 25 is talking about, which is where Paul quoted the death swallowed up in victory idea from. Strange how you missed all that, and seem to infer it's not related to those Isa.26 verses.

And again, I can confirm the rapture and the entering into the chamber and shutting the door for a week from the Old Testament oracles of Moses.

You didn't confirm the rapture with no such thing, because the trumpets were not only used in Israel for calling the people out, or just for feast days. They were used at anointing, and to prepare for BATTLE. The Revelation trumpets are about spiritual battle, especially the 7th trumpet. All you've done is gone looking in the OT for something that might support either a Pre-trib or Pre-wrath setting, anything except how God's Word shows the day of The Lord, Christ's coming and our gathering, and God's wrath upon the wicked, all happen within the same timing.

So just going back to the Old Testament to try and find Scripture that will serve as a plug-in for the Pre-Trib doctrine (like Isa.26:19-21), is not true Bible study. True Bible study involves keeping the flow of the subject within the chapters in mind as presented, and not just pulling out a few verses here and there to apply them however one wants. Because Isaiah 26:1 continues the subject of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter with "In that day...", it means you've got to connect its subject flow with Isaiah 26.

You're just again being snide, puffed up and wrong at the same time. I have showed from the New Testament and the Old Testament that the rapture precedes the Day of The Lord. Again, just looking at Isaiah 2 and seeing that it is fulfilled at the 6th seal shows that the Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming. I only posted the Old Testament passages to show why you and others are making so many misinterpretations of Scripture. And I also want people on the forum to really see the purposes of these things and consider them. When you understand the reason for a rapture it makes it easier to understand. The 3 rapture models are all flawed under biblical scrutiny. God bless.

If I was being "snide" you'd have more proof than what you assume now. Right now, you're not telling the truth, because the Scripture proves 'the day of the Lord', Christ's coming and our gathering, happen at the same time...

II Th 2:1-2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV)

That "day of Christ" phrase is 'day of <kurios>' in the Greek, which means 'lord'.

1Thes 5:2
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)

The "thief in the night" timing is about Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. That's 2 Bible witnesses...

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.(KJV)

Here, Peter also links the day of the Lord event with the time of God's consuming fire, which is how His wrath is poured out upon the wicked on earth. That's 3 Bible witnesses...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

Since Paul linked the 'day of the Lord' with Christ's coming "as a thief", that's 4 Bible witnesses that Christ's coming happens on the day of the Lord.

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)

There's Christ declaring His coming "as a thief"; and the Armageddon event is linked with it, which is also the day of the Lord event. That's 5 Bible witnesses.

And here's our Lord's example of what happens on the day of the Lord with the plague poured out upon the wicked...

Zech 14:12-15
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
(KJV)

It's THAT event on the day of the Lord, with Christ's coming "as a thief", that is His wrath poured out upon the wicked which will come upon His people Israel at Armageddon. It's that event which will occur at an instant, His consuming fire burning their works off the earth, and all being changed at the twinkling of an eye. Along with that, He is going to shake this earth with a great trembling 'yet once more' (Heb.12). Judah that will make a stand will not be moved, and nor will we.

 

[Andrew]

Again, I'll just go back to the simple version:

As stated before: Isaiah 2 is fulfilled at the 6th Seal of Revelation.

That is the Day of The Lord.

The Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming of Christ.

The post-trib model fails on this point alone.

IF I am wrong about the above two passages, just show it to me.

Rev. 16:14.......to gather them for battle on the GREAT DAY of God Almighty.
16:15 "Behold I come like a thief! (2 Peter 3:10 But THE DAY of the Lord will come like a thief.)
16:16 Then they gathered...to a place...called Armageddon.
16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "IT IS DONE!" (2 Peter 3:10 The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.)
The day of the Lord, the seventh trumpet, the second coming, it is done. All at the same time.
Seems so obvious.

 

[watchman F]

The day of the Lord, the seventh trumpet, the second coming, it is done. All at the same time.
Seems so obvious.

You would think???? But they cannot believe scripture or else they would have to sacrifice their false doctrine.

 

[lecoop]

Again, I'll just go back to the simple version:

As stated before: Isaiah 2 is fulfilled at the 6th Seal of Revelation.

That is the Day of The Lord.

The Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming of Christ.

The post-trib model fails on this point alone.

IF I am wrong about the above two passages, just show it to me.

NJBeliever, You are correct.
Joel chapter 2 ALSO has its final fulfillment at the 6th seal. BOTH of these are showing that the Day of the Lord is Imminent. It officially begins with the breaking of the 7th seal in heaven. And people on earth will now it has started, when all the green grass has burned up. How could anyone NOT see the wrath of God in the 5th and 6th trumpet?

If people would just believe what is written, they would see that those people at the 6th seal were wiser then they are: for they that just lived through the world wide earthquake, and saw the signs in the sun and moon, KNEW they had just seen the fulfillment of the signs of the Day of the Lord. They were terrified of the "day of His wrath."

Then Joel three tells us of a SECOND time the cosmic signs are seen: just before the coming of Christ in great glory, to face the battle of Armegeddon.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

JESUS COMES BACK IN A CLOUD, TAKES THE BELIEVERS UP TO HEAVEN, AND THEN THE 7TH TRUMPET, THE WRATH OF GOD HAPPENS. SEE REVELATION CHAPTERS
...
...
...
What's all those above events about given there? Just because there's no direct passage there with the words 'Christ's coming' you throw away all those events written there. No wonder you don't understand the events Paul gave in 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 are both about the time of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him on the final trump. Moreover, that's also why you refuse to accept the order Christ gave in Matthew 24 about His coming after that tribulation. If you won't accept that simple order He gave in Matt.24, then I suppose you wouldn't accept those Rev.11 events of His coming on the 7th trumpet either.

...

First of all, the prophecy in Isaiah 26 that I cite is not a direct sequence of events with chapter 25. It is a song that is going to be sung at the end times. And that song ENDS at verse 18. I quoted from verse 19, which is God speaking for Himself now (as opposed to detailing the song that we are going to be singing to Him).

That particular Isaiah 26 chapter is within a group of chapters some Bible scholars call the 'Apocalypse of Isaiah'. It is not ONLY the Isaiah 26 chapter, so the subject flows within a group of chapters, beginning with burdens and continuing with WOE's. God is showing the events of the last days, another parallel study that goes with The Book of Revelation. The timeline keeps moving back and forth, just like Revelation does. That's why that Isa.26:21 verse is especially about the time of HIS WRATH upon the wicked.

Now if the time of His wrath upon the wicked is at the end of the tribulation, then what is that command for His people to go into their chambers to hide until the indignation is past, doing there along with the time of His wrath? What that shows is what I've been saying Revelation shows, that the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His servants, and the time of God's wrath upon the wicked, and the day of The Lord, all happen within the same timeframe, very quickly.

So what does the 'hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be past' in chambers at the end of Isaiah 26 really mean? It means the same kind of thing it meant to the children of Israel when the plagues were poured out upon Egypt. They were told then to not venture out into the night. It does not mean being literally raptured off the earth, but instead, being protected by God from the plagues while still on earth. This is why it's written in the previous Isaiah 25 chapter that they waited for God, and when He appears after the destruction, they say, "...Lo, this is our God, we have waited for Him; and He will save us." (Isa.25:9)..

This might be persuasive except for the fact that you missed the fact that God is speaking to THE DEAD. He is not speaking to living people in this passage! He is talking about dead people. Who will rise up from the grave, go into their chambers and shut the door until the indignation is passed. Again, this is the rapture preceding the Day of The Lord. Obviously there is no need to tell a dead person not to go outside at night or to keep their windows closed. Their dead. This is a prophecy of them being raised from the grave and coming to heaven until GOD THE FATHER is finished punishing the inhabitants of the Earth (which is the day of The Lord).

The events of the resurrection, God's wrath on the day of The Lord, and our gathering to Christ, all happen at the same timeframe. I've already proven by 2 Thess.2:1-3 that Christ's coming and our gathering to Him, and the day of The Lord ("day of Christ") are all the same timing. That's also what the Rev.11:15 forward show too. The chambers idea simply means Christ's servants will be protected on earth while God's wrath will be poured out upon the wicked, at the time of God's consuming fire event. The event of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego not being harmed in the hot fiery furnace, heated seven times hotter than necessary, serves as an ensample of that event. Christ appeared in that furnace with them, and their clothes didn't even smell of smoke when they came out of it. But the servants of the king of Babylon were incinerated immediately just when they came close to it. What's that idea? That we don't have to leave this earth for God to be able to protect us from His wrath poured upon the wicked. Even the end of Rev.20:9 shows this, when God will rain fire upon the Gog army Satan will lead upon the "camp of the saints" on earth at the end of Christ's Milennium reign. Many look at God's consuming fire like literal physical fire man experiences on earth, like it has no control who it burns. God's consuming Fire is much more than that little physical earthly comparison, and He can control it like a laser beam (1 Kings 18:30-38; 2 Kings 1).

Even the "caught up" into the air idea in 1 Thess.4 is about being changed to the "spiritual body" at the twinkling of an eye, at an instant. That is specifically the event Isaiah 25 is talking about, which is where Paul quoted the death swallowed up in victory idea from. Strange how you missed all that, and seem to infer it's not related to those Isa.26 verses.

And again, I can confirm the rapture and the entering into the chamber and shutting the door for a week from the Old Testament oracles of Moses.

You didn't confirm the rapture with no such thing, because the trumpets were not only used in Israel for calling the people out, or just for feast days. They were used at anointing, and to prepare for BATTLE. The Revelation trumpets are about spiritual battle, especially the 7th trumpet. All you've done is gone looking in the OT for something that might support either a Pre-trib or Pre-wrath setting, anything except how God's Word shows the day of The Lord, Christ's coming and our gathering, and God's wrath upon the wicked, all happen within the same timing.

So just going back to the Old Testament to try and find Scripture that will serve as a plug-in for the Pre-Trib doctrine (like Isa.26:19-21), is not true Bible study. True Bible study involves keeping the flow of the subject within the chapters in mind as presented, and not just pulling out a few verses here and there to apply them however one wants. Because Isaiah 26:1 continues the subject of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter with "In that day...", it means you've got to connect its subject flow with Isaiah 26.

You're just again being snide, puffed up and wrong at the same time. I have showed from the New Testament and the Old Testament that the rapture precedes the Day of The Lord. Again, just looking at Isaiah 2 and seeing that it is fulfilled at the 6th seal shows that the Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming. I only posted the Old Testament passages to show why you and others are making so many misinterpretations of Scripture. And I also want people on the forum to really see the purposes of these things and consider them. When you understand the reason for a rapture it makes it easier to understand. The 3 rapture models are all flawed under biblical scrutiny. God bless.

If I was being "snide" you'd have more proof than what you assume now. Right now, you're not telling the truth, because the Scripture proves 'the day of the Lord', Christ's coming and our gathering, happen at the same time...

II Th 2:1-2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV)

That "day of Christ" phrase is 'day of <kurios>' in the Greek, which means 'lord'.

1Thes 5:2
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)

The "thief in the night" timing is about Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. That's 2 Bible witnesses...

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.(KJV)

Here, Peter also links the day of the Lord event with the time of God's consuming fire, which is how His wrath is poured out upon the wicked on earth. That's 3 Bible witnesses...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

Since Paul linked the 'day of the Lord' with Christ's coming "as a thief", that's 4 Bible witnesses that Christ's coming happens on the day of the Lord.

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)

There's Christ declaring His coming "as a thief"; and the Armageddon event is linked with it, which is also the day of the Lord event. That's 5 Bible witnesses.

And here's our Lord's example of what happens on the day of the Lord with the plague poured out upon the wicked...

Zech 14:12-15
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
(KJV)

It's THAT event on the day of the Lord, with Christ's coming "as a thief", that is His wrath poured out upon the wicked which will come upon His people Israel at Armageddon. It's that event which will occur at an instant, His consuming fire burning their works off the earth, and all being changed at the twinkling of an eye. Along with that, He is going to shake this earth with a great trembling 'yet once more' (Heb.12). Judah that will make a stand will not be moved, and nor will we.

[/quote]

It says "biblereader" but it seems your bible reads differenly than mine!

JESUS COMES BACK IN A CLOUD, TAKES THE BELIEVERS UP TO HEAVEN, AND THEN THE 7TH TRUMPET, THE WRATH OF GOD HAPPENS. SEE REVELATION CHAPTERS
14 AND 16

It is NOT written that Jesus comes back IN a cloud. Not in MY bible. Where do you imagine these things from? It IS written that we MEET Him in a cloud. I can assure you, at the rapture, He is not sitten on a cloud, holding a sickle!! That is figurative, and cannot be taken literally. Not only is it a figurative picture, it is also a prophecy picture: as these two harvests do not happen at the same time, nor do they happen in the 14th chapter. Next, these things DO happen LONG after the 7th trumpet, which is way back in chapter 7!! Do you feel comfortable rearranging the book of Revelation?

Always remember:

Any theory that must rearrange the book of Revelation is immediately suspect, and WILL be proven wrong. leCoop

Quote by NjBeliever

But yet, after the 7th trumpet (which is the 3rd woe), we don't see Christ appear. Where is he???? Why do we not see him?

Of course He is not seen, because John shows us his coming 3 1/2 year later, in Rev. 19.
Yes, of course the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord. But does this mean He comes? Of course not. That is adding meaning not IN the verse. If one understands the Chronology, this 7th trumpet sounds at the exact midpoint of the week, at the same moment of the abomination on earth. (please note just a few verses AFTER the 7th trumpet,the woman is fleeing into the wilderness. She has read the words of Jesus, and KNOWs to flee the moment the abomination has been seen. Therefore, Rev. 12:6 is only moments after the abomination and moments after the 7th trumpet.

Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned. Do THESE words say for sure that Jesus comes? Of course not. The kingdoms of the world have become HIS because the earthlease has run out. This is the millennial change, and Satan is NO LONGER the god of the present world: so there is war in heaven and he is cast OUT. Again, is it impossible that Christ "reigns" from heaven? He has been doing that for 2000 years!! One CANNOT use this verse to say He comes here.


And the nations were angry, Certainly - but this says nothing of Christ's coming.

and Thy wrath is come,

This is a Greek aorist verb, "not inflected to show tense" (Thayers). Since this Greek verb shows or includes NO timing at all, one cannot even say God's wrath starts here. In truth, it started with the first trumpet.

and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, When are the dead judged? John shows us that this happens AFTER the 1000 year reign.

and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; When are rewards handed out? At the beginning of the 1000 year reign.

and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth WHEN are they destroyed? At the battle of Armageddon (chapter 16)

So we see that these things are what has been said by the 24 elders and are PROPHECIES of future events, and cannot be tied (time wise) to the 7th trumpet: in fact, the timing of these events are scattered.

Coop