The pretrib fib

[watchman F]

The pivotal question is this: Is The Second Coming of Christ an expected event or unexpected?

If you think it's expected (which the Bible supports 100%- both believer and heathen will know when Christ is returning to Earth) then post-trib model fails. It's just that simple. Why? because the verses post-tribbers use to support their theory no longer make sense in light of that Biblical truth.

But truth be told, post-trib, pre-trib and pre-wrath are all flawed. This is why this debate can go on endlessly. All 3 major models are incorrect. There is a rapture though. And it precedes the Day of The Lord.

Its expected by some and not by others.
Just as in the days of Noah.
Noah expected the flood but not many others did and it came and took them all away.
You ever heard of such a thing as that?You should.

Very well said Shilohs.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Watchman

I for one would not support that lie. There are dispensations. And they are supported by scripture !

The same holds true with the gathering up of the saints pre trib. Again, I would not believe the lie that is contrary to scripture /

But , it is your life, and your decision.

I can only live in peace with the way I believe !

Thanks for being civil , but as far as your comments, they are wrong !

IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

During the tribulation period God will have mercy upon many. But not during the great tribulation period, which is the wrath of God period.

You mentioned the "Last day". But do you fully understand what the "Last Day" is all about ?

John 6:39 & 40 is not talking about the "Last Day", it is talking about the "last day" of the dispensation before the Lord gathers up the church.

The "Last Day" is that notable day of the Lord - Acts 2:20

IN Christ - MM

MM, you seriously need to separate yourself from dispensational theology and re-study the end times with a fresh point of view. Dispensationalism has infected your ability to understand scripture.

 

[Mysteryman]

During the tribulation period God will have mercy upon many. But not during the great tribulation period, which is the wrath of God period.

You mentioned the "Last day". But do you fully understand what the "Last Day" is all about ?

John 6:39 & 40 is not talking about the "Last Day", it is talking about the "last day" of the dispensation before the Lord gathers up the church.

The "Last Day" is that notable day of the Lord - Acts 2:20

IN Christ - MM

MM, you seriously need to separate yourself from dispensational theology and re-study the end times with a fresh point of view. Dispensationalism has infected your ability to understand scripture.

Ephesians 3:2 - "dispensation of the grace of God"

Christians are not a part of the wrath of God period, which is called the great tribulation !

Consider the truth and leave all the untruths that others have taught you.

Bless - IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

During the tribulation period God will have mercy upon many. But not during the great tribulation period, which is the wrath of God period.

You mentioned the "Last day". But do you fully understand what the "Last Day" is all about ?

John 6:39 & 40 is not talking about the "Last Day", it is talking about the "last day" of the dispensation before the Lord gathers up the church.

The "Last Day" is that notable day of the Lord - Acts 2:20

IN Christ - MM

MM, you seriously need to separate yourself from dispensational theology and re-study the end times with a fresh point of view. Dispensationalism has infected your ability to understand scripture.

Ephesians 3:2 - "dispensation of the grace of God"

Christians are not a part of the wrath of God period, which is called the great tribulation !

Consider the truth and leave all the untruths that others have taught you.

Bless - IN Christ - MM

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Because the phrase dispensation of grace is used in scripture doesn't even begin to defend, support, prove the teaching of dispensationalism, and the fact that you believe it could shows that you have like I said before are blinded by indoctrination into this false theology that you cannot understand scripture correctly. Secondly The wrath of God is not the Tribulation, but is poured out after the Tribulation as Christ is returning with all the saints.

Consider the truth and leave all the untruths that others have taught you.

I already have that is why IO am no longer a pretribber. I suggest you take you own advice.

 

[Mysteryman]

watchman

Do you still believe that we are still under the Law ?

If not, then why are we now under the law of liberty ? Which occurs during the dispensation of grace !

Was not the administration of the Law given to Moses ? If you say yes, then you also must realize that the Law was a dispensation, which was "ministered (administration) by Moses.

Did not Jesus come and fulfill all the Law ? If you say yes, then was not this the administration of the fulfilling of the law ? Jesus Christ was the "minister" = administrator . This dispensation was the period of "time" of the fulfilling of the law.

Was not during the time of Paradise in the book of Genesis, the Paradise dispensation ? And was not Adam the minister = administrator ? < This was the first dispensation and administration

Dispensation = time frame or period
Administration = who ministered during this time period.

The dispensation of grace, which also can be called the dispensation of the law of liberty. Was "ministered" by the Apostles, Prophets, Evangilists, Pastors and Teachers = Administrators

The dispensation of the trib period, which also can be called the tribulation dispensation. There is a period of time within this dispensation which is called the Millinium, or the thousand year reign of Christ. The administrator of this dispensation is Christ. But Christians are gone, they are not here during this dispensation period ! But the 144,000 virgins reigned with Christ - Rev. 20:4 (Rev. 14:3 & 4). < Christ does not come down during this time ! < This is "NOT" the return !

Once this thousand year reign ends, this also ends the 6th dispensation .Then Satan is loosed out of his prison. This is the tribulation dispensation, and the administrator is Christ, and the 144,000 virgins.

Then once this dispensation ends the wrath of God , the great tribulation begins. But first, Satan goes out and deceives the nations. This is called the dispensation of the wrath of God. The administrators are the angels of God and the saints with Christ which come down from heaven ( called the Return ). When Christ puts one foot on the sea and one foot one the land. < This is when the "Armageddon" occurs - Rev. 16:16 . < All of this occurs during the 7th dispensation !

The eighth dispensation is - "Eternal life" or eternal damnation - Rev. 20:11 & 12, but before eternal life or eternal damnation begins, there first must be the white throne judgement.

The dispensation of the 8th dispensation is "Eternity"
The Administrator of the 8th dispensation, is God himself . He sets up his throne within the New Jerusalem.

Anything else is pure folly !

IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

Dispensationalism is false plain and simple

 

[Mysteryman]

Dispensationalism is false plain and simple

Watchman

By all means, show me what I just said as being in error ? !

 

[watchman F]

Dispensationalism is false plain and simple

Watchman

By all means, show me what I just said as being in error ? !

To start off and most importantly in reference to this thread is your idea that the church will not be here for the Tribulation. Can you give me one solitary verse that says this. And i do not mean the we are not appointed to wrath stuff to which the word wrath must first be interpreted tribulation to fit, but a (any) passage of scripture that plainly stats the rapture is before the tribulation.

 

[Mysteryman]

[quote="watchman F":2yfl98nx]Dispensationalism is false plain and simple

Watchman

By all means, show me what I just said as being in error ? !

To start off and most importantly in reference to this thread is your idea that the church will not be here for the Tribulation. Can you give me one solitary verse that says this. And i do not mean the we are not appointed to wrath stuff to which the word wrath must first be interpreted tribulation to fit, but a (any) passage of scripture that plainly stats the rapture is before the tribulation.[/quote:2yfl98nx]

Hi Watchman

No ! I can show you verses that will tell you the exact same thing I said in the post above. That post has laid the foundation for what I believe. I have already shown you that God is not going to allow the church to be in any part of either tribulations, and that we are to be comforted and comfort others with this knowledge.

I could lay out a huge post here If I so desire. But that will not show you anything if you remain blinded to the facts.

You claim that I am a dispensationalist, because I believe in dispensationalism. Well, we both know that the word "dispensation" exist. So if you believe that this word exists. Then you yourself are a dispensationalist and one who believes in dispensationalism as much as I do ! Now I am not saying this from a worldly POV. I am saying this from a scriptural POV. There is a huge difference , you know ?

If you want to prove what I have laid down before you as being wrong. Then by all means prove me wrong. I will listen to what you have to say. But beware ! I will also reprove you with scripture where I see that you are in error.

So far you have not addressed anything I have said, and now you want me to prove something too you. You want me to prove to you that the church is gathered up before the first tribulation. Yet it is very simple, and you have missed it time and time again. First, you must believe in dispensation ! The beginning and ending of a dispensation. If you can not grasp this. My efforts will be fruitless in trying to show you anything. That is because your blinders will not allow it.

What do you think the day of pentecost represented ? Just anothe day ? One day flowing into another day, with no specific meaning, other than it being the day of Pentecost ? Or was it the beginning of another dispensation ?

IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

Watchman

By all means, show me what I just said as being in error ? !

To start off and most importantly in reference to this thread is your idea that the church will not be here for the Tribulation. Can you give me one solitary verse that says this. And i do not mean the we are not appointed to wrath stuff to which the word wrath must first be interpreted tribulation to fit, but a (any) passage of scripture that plainly stats the rapture is before the tribulation.

Hi Watchman

No ! I can show you verses that will tell you the exact same thing I said in the post above.

O.K. then do it. I challenge you to give one passage that plainly states the rapture is before the Tribulation. I do not need a page of bloviating, just a passage of scripture and possibly a small explanation of its meaning. Now the passage needs to be plain. If you need to twist it to fit the pretrib view then do not even post it.

 

[Mysteryman]

Watchman

By all means, show me what I just said as being in error ? ![/quote]To start off and most importantly in reference to this thread is your idea that the church will not be here for the Tribulation. Can you give me one solitary verse that says this. And i do not mean the we are not appointed to wrath stuff to which the word wrath must first be interpreted tribulation to fit, but a (any) passage of scripture that plainly stats the rapture is before the tribulation.[/quote]

Hi Watchman

No ! I can show you verses that will tell you the exact same thing I said in the post above.[/quote]O.K. then do it. I challenge you to give one passage that plainly states the rapture is before the Tribulation. I do not need a page of bloviating, just a passage of scripture and possibly a small explanation of its meaning. Now the passage needs to be plain. If you need to twist it to fit the pretrib view then do not even post it.[/quote]

Hi Watchman

What part of the word "NO" do you not understand ?

You prove your theory, since this is your thread and your theory.

I will correct you were you are in error. Trust me !

IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

I have already proven my ''case'' in the third post of this thread, and anything you say will not change the truth of scripture.

I am a post tribulationis/ historic premillennialist. Did you know that the apostles and the first century church were post trib including John and his disciples Polycarp, and Iraenius? Google ''Historical Premillennialism'', you might find it very interesting. However I am not post trib because it is what they first century taught (I found that out after I realize the truth, it only confirmed what I already believed). I am post trib because that is what scripture teaches.

I have a 6 point proof of post trib on this forum already, but I will just share two with you for now.

#1 The bible tells us the rapture is at the coming of Christ.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


#2 The coming of Christ is immediately after the Tribulation.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1+2=3, in other words if the rapture is at the coming of Christ and the coming of Christ is after the Tribulation then that would place the rapture after the Trib as well

The reason you refuse to make a case for the pretrib rapture using scripture is because you can't there are not scripture out there for you to use.


P.S. rambling on about dispensationalism is not a refutation of scripture.

 

[Mysteryman]

Watchman

Try me ! I am not unreasonable.

The first question I would ask you to prove, is what is a "dispensation" ?

The "usage" of the word means -- a period of time < That is its usage, and it can be found in Ephesians 1:10 -- here it talks about "times" not time. So that means that there are more than one dispensation.

The thousand year reign of Christ , which is called the Mellenium is a period of time. This period of time is a dispensation ! But one must understand that this dispensation is a dispensation within a dispensation. And that dispensation is called the tribulation ----- Not the great tribulation ! The great tribulation is another dispensation = period of time.

Is this a good starting point for you ? And if not, why not ?

IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

Watchman

Try me ! I am not unreasonable.

The first question I would ask you to prove, is what is a "dispensation" ?

The "usage" of the word means -- a period of time < That is its usage, and it can be found in Ephesians 1:10 -- here it talks about "times" not time. So that means that there are more than one dispensation.

The thousand year reign of Christ , which is called the Mellenium is a period of time. This period of time is a dispensation ! But one must understand that this dispensation is a dispensation within a dispensation. And that dispensation is called the tribulation ----- Not the great tribulation ! The great tribulation is another dispensation = period of time.

Is this a good starting point for you ? And if not, why not ?

IN Christ - MM

I have already ''tried'' you. I have given scripture that proves the rapture is at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, I have given you the opportunity to give your side (the idea of a pretrib rapture) using scripture, and you refused. We both know that you cannot that is why you will not so why do you continue to respond? Simply admit your defeat, look in the mirror and ask yourself why is my belief not in the bible. Hopefully this will help lead you to the truth.

 

[Mysteryman]

Watchman

The truth is, that I can show you. But the problem is, is that you will not meet me half way.

Let me ask you a question - When Christ comes back, the second coming, do the saints come back with him ?

 

[awaken]

This is one issue that I was taught growing up that I still believe...I believe the church will be raptured before the day of wrath.

I see two comings in scripture..
One when we are gathered in the clouds...
One where he sets his feet on earth...

At the Rapture, Jesus will only come down as far as the clouds (but not all the way down to the earth), and then He will "snatch up" all Christians (living or dead). Our mortal bodies will be transformed into immortal bodies, and then Jesus will take us up into heaven where He will judge us according to our deeds. All saved mortals on the earth (i.e. all Christians) will be "taken up" in the Rapture to meet Jesus in the clouds, and all unsaved mortals on the earth will remain on the earth.


At the Second Coming, Jesus will return all the way down to the earth, and everyone who had been raptured will return to the earth with Him. No-one will be transformed from mortality to immortality at the Second Coming, and no-one will go up into heaven at the Second Coming. All unsaved mortals on the earth will be "taken" in judgment by being killed, and all saved mortals on the earth will remain on the earth.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Sincere Christians have different views concerning the timing of the Rapture, but we should keep in mind that all Christians will be raptured at the appropriate time no matter what our personal views are concerning the Rapture. If we are caught up to be with Jesus before the seven-year Tribulation period begins, then praise the Lord! But if the Antichrist comes to power before Jesus returns for us then praise the Lord anyway, and let's work together to oppose the Antichrist.

 

[NJBeliever]

The pivotal question is this: Is The Second Coming of Christ an expected event or unexpected?

If you think it's expected (which the Bible supports 100%- both believer and heathen will know when Christ is returning to Earth) then post-trib model fails. It's just that simple. Why? because the verses post-tribbers use to support their theory no longer make sense in light of that Biblical truth.

But truth be told, post-trib, pre-trib and pre-wrath are all flawed. This is why this debate can go on endlessly. All 3 major models are incorrect. There is a rapture though. And it precedes the Day of The Lord.

Its expected by some and not by others.
Just as in the days of Noah.
Noah expected the flood but not many others did and it came and took them all away.
You ever heard of such a thing as that?You should.

No, I haven't heard of such a thing. The Bible makes it clear that the antichrist, false prophet, satan and the armies of human heathens will all be in the valley of megiddo waiting to fight Christ. Armies will be travelling across the world to come to the fight. They are not surprised at all. They clearly know he's coming.

And of course any believer would know Jesus is coming by counting 7 prophetic years. Or they (or anyone else) could just leaf through Revelation and as all the signs are happening in order, know precisely what the last ones will be, thus bringing the time of the Second Coming.

You, like many post-tribbers, are incorrectly reading Scripture. You are confusing the Day of The Lord with the Second Coming of Christ to Earth. They are two different things. And this is why the post-trib model fails. Well, it's one of the reasons anyway. But I have seen this misapplication of Scripture done time and time again. The Day of The Lord is UNEXPECTED. That is the "sudden destruction." The Second Coming is expected (just like Christ's First Coming was). The rapture precedes the Day of The Lord. Christ will come to gather His church in the clouds. And that is what's unexpected. Not His Second Coming at Armageddon. Thus the scriptures you are using to describe "the Second Coming" are not describing the Second Coming. Just something to consider. God bless.

 

[watchman F]

Watchman

The truth is, that I can show you. But the problem is, is that you will not meet me half way.

Let me ask you a question - When Christ comes back, the second coming, do the saints come back with him ?

#1 I have met you halfway. I showed you why I believe as I do with scripture. It is you that refuses to do likewise.

#2 Yes we return with Christ. The souls of the dead return with Christ from Heaven and there immortal bodies are raised from the grave to be united with their souls, and then we who are alive and have survived the Tribulation will be changed into our immortal perfected bodies, caught up to meet them (Jesus, and the resurrected just) in the air, and the continue with Christ on His descension toward the Earth for the millennium.

 

[Vic C.]

OK, can we forgo the, "I'm right, you're wrong" comments for a while? Thanks. There is not one person on earth who is 100% about matters of eschatology.

Dispensationalism in itself is not entirely false. I know of at least two periods; Old and new covenants. Plus, if you really study the OT, you will find Grace was evident for sure (Hebrews tells us as much). The problem is with some of the more unorthodox beliefs that accompany dispensationalism. One of them is this idea that there is one new covenant and plan for salvation for the Jews and another covenant and salvation plan for the Ekklesia.

Another is the notion that the Ekklesia will not experience tribulation. That goes against the entire history of Christendom. I guess the Lord forgot the mention this to the apostles and the martyred ECFs, for we know they suffered persecution.

Yet another notion is the one that states that the GT is from God; that it's His wrath. That isn't true either. Tribulation is of the world (Satan) and Wrath is from above (God). Jesus Himself said we will face tribulation in this world.

It would be wise for anyone (including myself) who is interested in End Times, to earnestly study from all angles and to not be so stiff-necked when it comes to anything outside your accepted belief. You just may stumble upon Biblical treasures you've never considered before.

The next thing that comes to mind is how the Biblical definition of antichrist gets swept under the carpet by some... even some who should know better.

I don't even dare mention my issues with today's interpretation of Daniel 9-24-27.