The pretrib fib

[watchman F]

Simply put; the Saints cannot be persecuted by the antichrist if the Saints aren't here to be persecuted.
The lie perpetrated by the pre-trib rapture will cause; "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,..." Matt. 24:10.
If you expect to be raptured before the tribulation, then you will believe you've been, "Left Behind" when it doesn't happen. How stable will your faith be then? You'll be a prime candidate for the devil to hammer with another lie, 'you got left behind because you were never saved', and if you believe that lie your goose is as good as cooked.
Think about it; how many Christians have fallen for this; "We get the easy way out", rapture lie?

Amen Andrew you are right on point.

Matthew 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


We need to get the truth out there to a sleeping deceived church. i know it is hard, and we constantly run up against resistance from those we are trying to help, but keep up the good fight my friend.

 

[NJBeliever]

Simply put; the Saints cannot be persecuted by the antichrist if the Saints aren't here to be persecuted.
The lie perpetrated by the pre-trib rapture will cause; "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,..." Matt. 24:10.
If you expect to be raptured before the tribulation, then you will believe you've been, "Left Behind" when it doesn't happen. How stable will your faith be then? You'll be a prime candidate for the devil to hammer with another lie, 'you got left behind because you were never saved', and if you believe that lie your goose is as good as cooked.
Think about it; how many Christians have fallen for this; "We get the easy way out", rapture lie?

Amen Andrew you are right on point.

Matthew 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


We need to get the truth out there to a sleeping deceived church. i know it is hard, and we constantly run up against resistance from those we are trying to help, but keep up the good fight my friend.

This is all completely incorrect Biblical interpretation.

 

[NJBeliever]

Simply put; the Saints cannot be persecuted by the antichrist if the Saints aren't here to be persecuted.
The lie perpetrated by the pre-trib rapture will cause; "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,..." Matt. 24:10.
If you expect to be raptured before the tribulation, then you will believe you've been, "Left Behind" when it doesn't happen. How stable will your faith be then? You'll be a prime candidate for the devil to hammer with another lie, 'you got left behind because you were never saved', and if you believe that lie your goose is as good as cooked.
Think about it; how many Christians have fallen for this; "We get the easy way out", rapture lie?

There are going to be those who come to Christ during the 70th week. These are "saints."

 

[watchman F]

Simply put; the Saints cannot be persecuted by the antichrist if the Saints aren't here to be persecuted.
The lie perpetrated by the pre-trib rapture will cause; "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,..." Matt. 24:10.
If you expect to be raptured before the tribulation, then you will believe you've been, "Left Behind" when it doesn't happen. How stable will your faith be then? You'll be a prime candidate for the devil to hammer with another lie, 'you got left behind because you were never saved', and if you believe that lie your goose is as good as cooked.
Think about it; how many Christians have fallen for this; "We get the easy way out", rapture lie?

Amen Andrew you are right on point.

Matthew 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


We need to get the truth out there to a sleeping deceived church. i know it is hard, and we constantly run up against resistance from those we are trying to help, but keep up the good fight my friend.

This is all completely incorrect Biblical interpretation.

Like I said the truth needs to be spoken regardless of the resistance.

 

[Andrew]

Simply put; the Saints cannot be persecuted by the antichrist if the Saints aren't here to be persecuted.
The lie perpetrated by the pre-trib rapture will cause; "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,..." Matt. 24:10.
If you expect to be raptured before the tribulation, then you will believe you've been, "Left Behind" when it doesn't happen. How stable will your faith be then? You'll be a prime candidate for the devil to hammer with another lie, 'you got left behind because you were never saved', and if you believe that lie your goose is as good as cooked.
Think about it; how many Christians have fallen for this; "We get the easy way out", rapture lie?

There are going to be those who come to Christ during the 70th week. These are "saints."

Yes, there indeed will be conversions during the tribulation, but not just in the 70th week. The problem here is that people have convinced themselves that what someone said is totally true. Someone or many, decided that a few verses look like a rapture (they insinuate the precept), and then people began asking "when?", and some decided it happens before the tribulation, for more than 150 years now as I understand it.
I'll tell ya what, if you get raptured before the trib, good for you. The debate is like many others, and like those others, people "interpret" them differently, but if I were to lay down my greatest reason for our suffering during this period of time because were are here; it would be the entire Bible. There is a huge problem created by "timing", and the perception of that "timing". What happens and when it happens, span many of the topics in this forum and they are all prophecy related. Therein lay the problem, and addressing that problem may require a new thread; I'm not sure that I can do that yet (I'm hoping for permission to do so).

 

[NJBeliever]

Yes, there indeed will be conversions during the tribulation, but not just in the 70th week. The problem here is that people have convinced themselves that what someone said is totally true. Someone or many, decided that a few verses look like a rapture (they insinuate the precept), and then people began asking "when?", and some decided it happens before the tribulation, for more than 150 years now as I

That you would say a "few verses look like a rapture" just tells me that you have not really studied the Old Testament enough. Not only are there more than a few verses of the rapture (and it preceding the Day of The Lord), there is a complete type and shadow done by Moses and Aaron at the time of the gathering (which is what the rapture is all about).

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The Oracles are God's plan for humanity as revealed through Old Testament prophets. All these things have been foreshadowed in the Old Testament. That's how we can know the right interpretation in the New Testament. Jesus Christ is going to fulfill every Old Testament feast. Almost everyone agrees He fulfilled Passover on the cross. 3 days later He fulfilled the feast of first fruits. 47 days later He fulfilled the Feast of Pentecost. There are 4 months between the spring and fall feasts. Pentecost was when the Apostles were sent out to spread the Gospel to the nations and build the church.

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

Jesus Himself references this. This is the time of the church age. Until the fall feasts when the "gathering" takes place and we are taken out of here. And that is the next feast to come, Rosh Hashanna. The Feast of Trumpets is the feast that has "The Last Trump." It's also the ONLY feast of the Jews where no one know "the day or hour" in which it would begin. This is the gathering that takes place.

Numbers 10: 1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. 3And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

God then provided instructions for atonement at the "door" of the tabernacle.

Leviticus 8:30 And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which was upon the altar, and sprinkled it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.
31And Moses said unto Aaron and to his sons, Boil the flesh at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and there eat it with the bread that is in the basket of consecrations, as I commanded, saying, Aaron and his sons shall eat it. 32And that which remaineth of the flesh and of the bread shall ye burn with fire. 33And ye shall not go out of the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in seven days, until the days of your consecration be at an end: for seven days shall he consecrate you. 34As he hath done this day, so the LORD hath commanded to do, to make an atonement for you. 35Therefore shall ye abide at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation day and night seven days, and keep the charge of the LORD, that ye die not: for so I am commanded.

They are called into their chambers and to shut up their doors for a week for the consecration of the priesthood. This is exactly what happens to us at the rapture. We are translated and given our garments as a royal priesthood (Rev 7:9). And we stay in our chambers for a week of years.

And while we are shut in, The Lord is avenging the blood of his saints and the innocent.

Isaiah 26: 19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The dead in Christ rise first. This itself is one of many Old Testament passages prophesy of the rapture. The dead will be caught up to Heaven right before the Day of The Lord. Read Isaiah 2 and then read Revelation 6's Sixth Seal to the end of the chapter. It's obviously the same event being described. And that is the start of the Day of The Lord. And the church is raptured right before it. There is much confirmation of these things but the Bible says instead of making ourselves teachers we must look to the oracles of the Old Testament. But so many in here are so adamant about these incorrect rapture models (and again, I believe ALL 3 models are wrong -- I'm not pre-trib) that they will not take the time to search the scriptures in depth. With proper consideration and study, I think the Bible shows that there is indeed a rapture and that we will not be here for the indignation. We will be raptured in Heaven with Jesus

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Andrew]

This is about a PRE-trib rapture, you said it right, it proceeds the Day of the Lord which is clearly the end of the age and that's After the tribulation.
I'm not saying there is no rapture, I'm saying that every verse pertaining to resurrection gets dragged in and misinterpreted as rapture. I'm saying that pre-tribulation rapture is a lie that will stomp all over the faith of every person who thinks they get a free ride out of here without suffering or doing anything.
How is it that you, or anyone, thinks that suffering is not allowed by our God when the entire Bible declares the suffering of God's chosen people. It seems to me that both apostles and prophets alike were put to death for their faith. Luke 21:36 Are you kidding? Did you miss verse 35, tell me who "All who live on the face of the earth" is, Please. I'll say it again, if you aren't here your dead, asleep in the Lord.
1 Cor. 15:51-52. Paul clearly states that there will be living people on the planet when Christ returns who will be taken up (rapture) AND the dead in Christ will rise first (resurrection). What part of that being the end, end , end, last, Omega, finished, over and done with isn't sinking in?
There will be NO pre-tribulation rapture. We have places to take and duties to perform and I suggest we all find our place so that when the Master returns He will find us doing what He expected us to be doing.
Do you want to know when you'll try to save your life the most? When you're about to lose it.
He who tries to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My Names sake will find it.
Many will turn from the faith at that time. The chaff WILL be separated from the grain.
This is no game. I don't sit here and face death. My faith (my measure of faith determined by God) allows me(permits me), to understand eternity; I do not regard my physical body as part of the plan, it's a vehicle to dwell in until I move on. I do not look upon this world and fail to see what our God has proclaimed; I see it as clear as the day itself.
Who in our age has suffered like Paul's description of his own (there are some), but who of us really suffer unto death for our Lord? The last shall be first. I'm quite certain we are in the last classification in this plan. Just how many of us do you think will get wisked away without suffering? Even those who have fallen asleep suffered through this life; my dad fought two battles with cancer and my mother died of Alzheimer's. If our Lord permits this in this life, why would anyone think that we would be spared the tribulation when suffering leads to repentance? We are needed to catch all who fall down in despair and give them hope in Christ.
People, our God is about His VERY serious business. For us to think, with all we have learned, that we are not being prepared for His good works is utter foolishness. We are HERE until we leave, and we have duties to attend to. Your faith is what will see you through and God will lift you up, tend to your needs, and make sure we are all so dog gone busy with those who repent, that we aren't aware of our suffering.
We are the body of Christ. There is absolutely no other people in this world who do more to reach out and help a world in need than us. We've been, and continue to be, groomed to accomplish the task at hand.
Who cares if they hate us for it? We are here to serve our King; it's His approval we need, not the worlds. Based on current population, 2.25 Billion people will die during the tribulation. Apparently we are only 7% of populace, so that's 500 million of us (born again Spirit filled), that leaves 10 to 1 of us.
Let us all take focus on reaching ten people.
I also hope everyone of you would hope to make it to the Day and see Him coming, being blessed that you are one of the very few who took part in the rapture, at the end of the age, when you have finished your duties here, and tended to HIM to the end; blessed are you.

 

[watchman F]

This is about a PRE-trib rapture, you said it right, it proceeds the Day of the Lord which is clearly the end of the age and that's After the tribulation.
I'm not saying there is no rapture, I'm saying that every verse pertaining to resurrection gets dragged in and misinterpreted as rapture. I'm saying that pre-tribulation rapture is a lie that will stomp all over the faith of every person who thinks they get a free ride out of here without suffering or doing anything.

Good word Andrew, stand firm in the truth.

 

[NJBeliever]

This is about a PRE-trib rapture, you said it right, it proceeds the Day of the Lord which is clearly the end of the age and that's After the tribulation.
I'm not saying there is no rapture, I'm saying that every verse pertaining to resurrection gets dragged in and misinterpreted as rapture. I'm saying that pre-tribulation rapture is a lie that will stomp all over the faith of every person who thinks they get a free ride out of here without suffering or doing anything.
How is it that you, or anyone, thinks that suffering is not allowed by our God when the entire Bible declares the suffering of God's chosen people. It seems to me that both apostles and prophets alike were put to death for their faith.

These are straw man arguments. I never said that we as Christians won't suffer. You just don't understand the purpose of The Day of The Lord. You're making it about yourself when it's not about you. It's about GOD THE FATHER and the bloodshed of His saints and the innocent throughout history.

Luke 21:36 Are you kidding? Did you miss verse 35, tell me who "All who live on the face of the earth" is, Please. I'll say it again, if you aren't here your dead, asleep in the Lord.

Luke 21:3 4And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I have to say it's disappointing that you'd assert I used Luke 21:36 out of context. In the entire chapter, Jesus is describing the Day of The Lord and 70th week and clearly says that "that day", meaning the Day of The Lord will be a snare for those who dwell on the face of the earth. But verse 36 says that if you watch and pray, you may be accounted worthy to escape ALL of the things he just described in the entire chapter. Meaning, you won't be on the face on the Earth for the Day of The Lord. It's clear and I am using it in context. You just can't reconcile it with your theory (because your rapture model is wrong).

1 Cor. 15:51-52. Paul clearly states that there will be living people on the planet when Christ returns who will be taken up (rapture) AND the dead in Christ will rise first (resurrection). What part of that being the end, end , end, last, Omega, finished, over and done with isn't sinking in?

1 Corinthians 15: 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

These verses say nothing about the return of Christ. In fact it doesn't mention Christ at all. It says at "the Last Trump" we will be translated. As I have stated many times, the "Last Trump" is NOT the 7tth trumpet of Revelation. It's the Last Trump of Rosh Hashana, the Feast of Trumpets. You have just misinterpreted the passage.

There will be NO pre-tribulation rapture. We have places to take and duties to perform and I suggest we all find our place so that when the Master returns He will find us doing what He expected us to be doing.
Do you want to know when you'll try to save your life the most? When you're about to lose it.

You just ignore all of the Old Testament verses I put and the Biblical warrant for the rapture. Additionally, you don't even respond to the fact that the Day of The Lord commences at the 6th seal which is Biblically confirmed by Isaiah 2 and Revelation 6. Like I said, it's just a lack of Old Testament study that leading to these incorrect interpretations of end-time prophecy. The verses I put up show the rapture and its intent. It also shows the Day of The Lord. And they show the timing. You are just using misapplied and misinterpreted verses (i.e., "the last trump") to pigeon hole scripture into your incorrect rapture model.

I didn't respond to the rest of your post because it was pure speculation. There were no Biblical verses or support included in any of it.

 

[watchman F]

Of course the last trump is not really the last trump Nj, or the pretrib theory falls to the waside, just like the coming of Christ in 1st Thess 4:15 isn't really the coming of Christ, or the first resurrection isn;t the first resurrection, or immediately after the tribulation doesn't really mean immediately after the Tribulation. I mean if the bible really meant what it says how in the world could you continue to be a pretrib believer right?

 

[NJBeliever]

Of course the last trump is not really the last trump Nj, or the pretrib theory falls to the waside, just like the coming of Christ in 1st Thess 4:15 isn't really the coming of Christ, or the first resurrection isn;t the first resurrection, or immediately after the tribulation doesn't really mean immediately after the Tribulation. I mean if the bible really meant what it says how in the world could you continue to be a pretrib believer right?

Once again, you're not addressing what I'm saying. I addressed Rosh hashana in detail above. If you have a response to my post above with some actual Biblical verses, I'm all ears. And I've already mentioned about 5 times, that anyone reading Revelation can see that Jesus does NOT return at the 7th trumpet. There's no way to make that happen without blatantly twisting scripture. So who's theory is falling by the wayside? LOL.

But again, it's just because you are not studying the Old Testament enough to debate this. The Oracles revealed the rapture in clear type and shadow. Jesus is going to fulfill it as the first fall feast. But this isn't stuff that people are getting deep into. This is why all of a sudden we're seeing straw man arguments and snide remarks.

 

[watchman F]

Of course the last trump is not really the last trump Nj, or the pretrib theory falls to the waside, just like the coming of Christ in 1st Thess 4:15 isn't really the coming of Christ, or the first resurrection isn;t the first resurrection, or immediately after the tribulation doesn't really mean immediately after the Tribulation. I mean if the bible really meant what it says how in the world could you continue to be a pretrib believer right?

Once again, you're not addressing what I'm saying. I addressed Rosh hashana in detail above. If you have a response to my post above with some actual Biblical verses, I'm all ears. And I've already mentioned about 5 times, that anyone reading Revelation can see that Jesus does NOT return at the 7th trumpet. There's no way to make that happen without blatantly twisting scripture. So who's theory is falling by the wayside? LOL.

But again, it's just because you are not studying the Old Testament enough to debate this. The Oracles revealed the rapture in clear type and shadow. Jesus is going to fulfill it as the first fall feast. But this isn't stuff that people are getting deep into. This is why all of a sudden we're seeing straw man arguments and snide remarks.

Never said that Jesus returns at the 7th Trump i said He returns at the last trump, which if not the 7th trump has to be after the 7th trump as it is the LAST TRUMP. Like I said if scripture meant wehat it said you couldn;t be a pretribber.

So let me ask you this, is or is not 1st Thess 4:15 referring the coming of Christ when it says coming of Christ?

1st Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

If you say (as you must for the pretrib theory not to fall) that this is not referring to the coming of Christ, then you further prove my point about the blindness of pretribbers. But this blindness is a must for them to continue in their false belief

 

[veteran]

Jesus Himself references this. This is the time of the church age. Until the fall feasts when the "gathering" takes place and we are taken out of here. And that is the next feast to come, Rosh Hashanna. The Feast of Trumpets is the feast that has "The Last Trump." It's also the ONLY feast of the Jews where no one know "the day or hour" in which it would begin. This is the gathering that takes place.

The real 'straw dog' there, is the misapplying of the last trumpet prior to the tribulation. The last trumpet, the 7th of Revelation 11, only will occur at the end of the tribulation period. That's why Rev.11 shows it's on the 3rd woe, which is also the last woe period.

Isa 27:12-13
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
(KJV)

That's the event of 1 Thess.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:52.

Furthermore, the Isaiah 26:19-21 Scripture must be read in context with the previous Isaiah chapters, because the first verse of Isaiah 26:1 continues the subject of the previous chapter with "In that day...". And just what might be the subject of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter, and before? The day of The LORD events to end wickedness upon this earth. Even the very FIRST verse of Isaiah 26 is giving yet another timing marker. Can anyone guess what it is?...

Isa 26:1
1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
(KJV)

So what's the events of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter? It's the events of the "last trump" which Paul was pulling from in 1 Cor.15...

Isa 25:2-12
2 For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.
3 Therefore shall the strong people glorify Thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear Thee.
4 For Thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
10 For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.
11 And He shall spread forth His hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and He shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.
12 And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall He bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.
(KJV)

The events of the "last trump" Paul was teaching is about the resurrection time, and the punishment upon the wicked on earth, with their strongholds being brought down to the dust. ALL THAT is definitely at the END of the tribulation. Those are the same type of events covered on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period at the end of Revelation 11.

So what does the 'hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be past' in chambers at the end of Isaiah 26 really mean? It means the same kind of thing it meant to the children of Israel when the plagues were poured out upon Egypt. They were told then to not venture out into the night. It does not mean being literally raptured off the earth, but instead, being protected by God from the plagues while still on earth. This is why it's written in the previous Isaiah 25 chapter that they waited for God, and when He appears after the destruction, they say, "...Lo, this is our God, we have waited for Him; and He will save us." (Isa.25:9).

So just going back to the Old Testament to try and find Scripture that will serve as a plug-in for the Pre-Trib doctrine (like Isa.26:19-21), is not true Bible study. True Bible study involves keeping the flow of the subject within the chapters in mind as presented, and not just pulling out a few verses here and there to apply them however one wants. Because Isaiah 26:1 continues the subject of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter with "In that day...", it means you've got to connect its subject flow with Isaiah 26.

 

[NJBeliever]

Never said that Jesus returns at the 7th Trump i said He returns at the last trump, which if not the 7th trump has to be after the 7th trump as it is the LAST TRUMP. Like I said if scripture meant wehat it said you couldn;t be a pretribber.

So wait, now the Last Trump is NOT the 7th Trump???? Then when is the last trump? Are you saying it's not even in the Bible, because there are no trumps after the 7th in Revelation. Wow.

So let me ask you this, is or is not 1st Thess 4:15 referring the coming of Christ when it says coming of Christ?

1st Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

If you say (as you must for the pretrib theory not to fall) that this is not referring to the coming of Christ, then you further prove my point about the blindness of pretribbers. But this blindness is a must for them to continue in their false belief

As I stated Christ is coming in the clouds to gather His church until the indignation is overpast. That is the rapture. Once it is over He will return to Earth to wipe out His enemies and reign in righteousness. But again, you are just ignoring the verses I posted, even though they show the type and purpose of the rapture (which I don't think you understand - like I said, The Day of The Lord is not about you, it's about God The Father).

Of course this passage above from Thessalonians could seem like the Second Coming. That's why you and others keep confusing it and misinterpreting Scripture. Even if you knew why Paul wrote this epistle you'd have a better understanding of why this is not the Second Coming being described. You need to study the oracles as the Bible tells us to. but instead of doing that and getting deep into the Old Testament, you are just making your own theories (like your invisible, never-mentioned "last trump") and giving out snide remarks.

 

[NJBeliever]

The real 'straw dog' there, is the misapplying of the last trumpet prior to the tribulation. The last trumpet, the 7th of Revelation 11, only will occur at the end of the tribulation period. That's why Rev.11 shows it's on the 3rd woe, which is also the last woe period.

revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

But yet, after the 7th trumpet (which is the 3rd woe), we don't see Christ appear. Where is he???? Why do we not see him?

Isa 27:12-13
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
(KJV)

That's the event of 1 Thess.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:52.

Furthermore, the Isaiah 26:19-21 Scripture must be read in context with the previous Isaiah chapters, because the first verse of Isaiah 26:1 continues the subject of the previous chapter with "In that day...". And just what might be the subject of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter, and before? The day of The LORD events to end wickedness upon this earth. Even the very FIRST verse of Isaiah 26 is giving yet another timing marker. Can anyone guess what it is?...

Isa 26:1
1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
(KJV)

So what's the events of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter? It's the events of the "last trump" which Paul was pulling from in 1 Cor.15...

The events of the "last trump" Paul was teaching is about the resurrection time, and the punishment upon the wicked on earth, with their strongholds being brought down to the dust. ALL THAT is definitely at the END of the tribulation. Those are the same type of events covered on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period at the end of Revelation 11.

First of all, the prophecy in Isaiah 26 that I cite is not a direct sequence of events with chapter 25. It is a song that is going to be sung at the end times. And that song ENDS at verse 18. I quoted from verse 19, which is God speaking for Himself now (as opposed to detailing the song that we are going to be singing to Him).

So what does the 'hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be past' in chambers at the end of Isaiah 26 really mean? It means the same kind of thing it meant to the children of Israel when the plagues were poured out upon Egypt. They were told then to not venture out into the night. It does not mean being literally raptured off the earth, but instead, being protected by God from the plagues while still on earth. This is why it's written in the previous Isaiah 25 chapter that they waited for God, and when He appears after the destruction, they say, "...Lo, this is our God, we have waited for Him; and He will save us." (Isa.25:9)..

This might be persuasive except for the fact that you missed the fact that God is speaking to THE DEAD. He is not speaking to living people in this passage! He is talking about dead people. Who will rise up from the grave, go into their chambers and shut the door until the indignation is passed. Again, this is the rapture preceding the Day of The Lord. Obviously there is no need to tell a dead person not to go outside at night or to keep their windows closed. Their dead. This is a prophecy of them being raised from the grave and coming to heaven until GOD THE FATHER is finished punishing the inhabitants of the Earth (which is the day of The Lord).

And again, I can confirm the rapture and the entering into the chamber and shutting the door for a week from the Old Testament oracles of Moses.

So just going back to the Old Testament to try and find Scripture that will serve as a plug-in for the Pre-Trib doctrine (like Isa.26:19-21), is not true Bible study. True Bible study involves keeping the flow of the subject within the chapters in mind as presented, and not just pulling out a few verses here and there to apply them however one wants. Because Isaiah 26:1 continues the subject of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter with "In that day...", it means you've got to connect its subject flow with Isaiah 26.

You're just again being snide, puffed up and wrong at the same time. I have showed from the New Testament and the Old Testament that the rapture precedes the Day of The Lord. Again, just looking at Isaiah 2 and seeing that it is fulfilled at the 6th seal shows that the Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming. I only posted the Old Testament passages to show why you and others are making so many misinterpretations of Scripture. And I also want people on the forum to really see the purposes of these things and consider them. When you understand the reason for a rapture it makes it easier to understand. The 3 rapture models are all flawed under biblical scrutiny. God bless.

 

[veteran]

Hi Veteran

Your top paragraph is correct. It does mean to fall away. But your bottom paragraph is not correct = an untruth.

Christians already know who the false one is. He have been revealed unto us - Christians.

This "falling away" is talking about Christians who fall away from the faith. The world has already fallen away from the truth. Once Christians fall away from the truth, and do not cling to the truth anymore, then Christ is coming back to gather up the church. We are seeing glimpses of this already within the church. For instance, we now see christians saying that when we die, we don't die, but just go on to a better place. Aunt or unlce so and so, is now in heaven after they die. Or, God took my baby to heaven because he wanted another soul in heaven. And I could tell you other things the church is now believing that are just erroneous !

These are signs. Paul told the church that there must be a falling away first. A falling away from the faith = Truth !

No, that "son of perdition" Paul was speaking of has NOT been revealed yet, especially not to those on the Pre-Trib doctrines. It's that particular false one who has not come yet that will cause those who spiritually sleep in the night and travail with child to fall away from Christ in the future tribulation. There's several markers Paul included there to show this...

2 Thess. 2:3-9
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Many of the Reformers thought that false one meant the pope in their day; they saw the pope then as the antichrist, misapplying that "temple" to mean Christ's Body. That event Paul is speaking of is about the same event our Lord Jesus was speaking of in His Olivet Discourse about the "abomination of desolation", and the false one who will stand in the holy place in Jerusalem. Our Lord Jesus was pointing directly to the temple complex in Jerusalem and a coming false messiah (a pseudo Christ per the "false Christs" phrase in Greek), not to His Body of believers. The true spiritual Temple of Christ's Body in Eph.2 which Paul spoke of cannot be corrupted by a false one, since Christ is the Head Cornerstone.

2 Thess.2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus warned of 'a pseudo Christ' that is to come working "great signs, and wonders" so powerful that it might deceive His elect. He gave that within tribulation Scripture. The "another beast", the dragon of Rev.13:11 forward also includes that working of "great wonders" and "miracles" on earth in the sight of men. And what that "another beast" of Rev.13 is to do on earth, no man yet has seen, for it's about setting up idol worship of the beast image for all peoples on earth to worship, and those who refuse to be killed. The closest false religious working comparable to that so far, was that of historical Babylon where Nebuchadnezzar setup a golden idol of himself for all to bow down to at the sound of the psalter (music for call to worship). The closest religious working to that today is radical Islam, which also uses music or song to call the time of worship, and promotes the killing of those who refuse to bow.

There again, if one just hunts for verses to try and support a doctrine, instead of allowing God's Word to interpret Itself as a whole, deception will be guaranteed. That's why it's important to connect that specific warning Paul gives about that false one there with the same kind of warnings our Lord Jesus gave about it, which gives more detail. And that false messiah event as given will be the most powerful deception event ever to occur on this earth. Only in our days are we actually beginning to see the signs our Lord Jesus gave for its season.

Thus the falling away event Paul speaks of is not simply Christians who don't go to Church anymore, or turn to man's philosophy, etc. It's about literal worship to a false messiah, the antichirst, who comes first to set himself up to be worshipped instead of Christ, AND, there must be "great signs and wonders", "miracles", associated with his working on earth in the sight of men.

 

[veteran]

revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

But yet, after the 7th trumpet (which is the 3rd woe), we don't see Christ appear. Where is he???? Why do we not see him?

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

What's all those above events about given there? Just because there's no direct passage there with the words 'Christ's coming' you throw away all those events written there. No wonder you don't understand the events Paul gave in 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 are both about the time of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him on the final trump. Moreover, that's also why you refuse to accept the order Christ gave in Matthew 24 about His coming after that tribulation. If you won't accept that simple order He gave in Matt.24, then I suppose you wouldn't accept those Rev.11 events of His coming on the 7th trumpet either.

Isa 27:12-13
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
(KJV)

That's the event of 1 Thess.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:52.

Furthermore, the Isaiah 26:19-21 Scripture must be read in context with the previous Isaiah chapters, because the first verse of Isaiah 26:1 continues the subject of the previous chapter with "In that day...". And just what might be the subject of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter, and before? The day of The LORD events to end wickedness upon this earth. Even the very FIRST verse of Isaiah 26 is giving yet another timing marker. Can anyone guess what it is?...

Isa 26:1
1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
(KJV)

So what's the events of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter? It's the events of the "last trump" which Paul was pulling from in 1 Cor.15...

The events of the "last trump" Paul was teaching is about the resurrection time, and the punishment upon the wicked on earth, with their strongholds being brought down to the dust. ALL THAT is definitely at the END of the tribulation. Those are the same type of events covered on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period at the end of Revelation 11.

First of all, the prophecy in Isaiah 26 that I cite is not a direct sequence of events with chapter 25. It is a song that is going to be sung at the end times. And that song ENDS at verse 18. I quoted from verse 19, which is God speaking for Himself now (as opposed to detailing the song that we are going to be singing to Him).

That particular Isaiah 26 chapter is within a group of chapters some Bible scholars call the 'Apocalypse of Isaiah'. It is not ONLY the Isaiah 26 chapter, so the subject flows within a group of chapters, beginning with burdens and continuing with WOE's. God is showing the events of the last days, another parallel study that goes with The Book of Revelation. The timeline keeps moving back and forth, just like Revelation does. That's why that Isa.26:21 verse is especially about the time of HIS WRATH upon the wicked.

Now if the time of His wrath upon the wicked is at the end of the tribulation, then what is that command for His people to go into their chambers to hide until the indignation is past, doing there along with the time of His wrath? What that shows is what I've been saying Revelation shows, that the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His servants, and the time of God's wrath upon the wicked, and the day of The Lord, all happen within the same timeframe, very quickly.

So what does the 'hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be past' in chambers at the end of Isaiah 26 really mean? It means the same kind of thing it meant to the children of Israel when the plagues were poured out upon Egypt. They were told then to not venture out into the night. It does not mean being literally raptured off the earth, but instead, being protected by God from the plagues while still on earth. This is why it's written in the previous Isaiah 25 chapter that they waited for God, and when He appears after the destruction, they say, "...Lo, this is our God, we have waited for Him; and He will save us." (Isa.25:9)..

This might be persuasive except for the fact that you missed the fact that God is speaking to THE DEAD. He is not speaking to living people in this passage! He is talking about dead people. Who will rise up from the grave, go into their chambers and shut the door until the indignation is passed. Again, this is the rapture preceding the Day of The Lord. Obviously there is no need to tell a dead person not to go outside at night or to keep their windows closed. Their dead. This is a prophecy of them being raised from the grave and coming to heaven until GOD THE FATHER is finished punishing the inhabitants of the Earth (which is the day of The Lord).

The events of the resurrection, God's wrath on the day of The Lord, and our gathering to Christ, all happen at the same timeframe. I've already proven by 2 Thess.2:1-3 that Christ's coming and our gathering to Him, and the day of The Lord ("day of Christ") are all the same timing. That's also what the Rev.11:15 forward show too. The chambers idea simply means Christ's servants will be protected on earth while God's wrath will be poured out upon the wicked, at the time of God's consuming fire event. The event of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego not being harmed in the hot fiery furnace, heated seven times hotter than necessary, serves as an ensample of that event. Christ appeared in that furnace with them, and their clothes didn't even smell of smoke when they came out of it. But the servants of the king of Babylon were incinerated immediately just when they came close to it. What's that idea? That we don't have to leave this earth for God to be able to protect us from His wrath poured upon the wicked. Even the end of Rev.20:9 shows this, when God will rain fire upon the Gog army Satan will lead upon the "camp of the saints" on earth at the end of Christ's Milennium reign. Many look at God's consuming fire like literal physical fire man experiences on earth, like it has no control who it burns. God's consuming Fire is much more than that little physical earthly comparison, and He can control it like a laser beam (1 Kings 18:30-38; 2 Kings 1).

Even the "caught up" into the air idea in 1 Thess.4 is about being changed to the "spiritual body" at the twinkling of an eye, at an instant. That is specifically the event Isaiah 25 is talking about, which is where Paul quoted the death swallowed up in victory idea from. Strange how you missed all that, and seem to infer it's not related to those Isa.26 verses.

And again, I can confirm the rapture and the entering into the chamber and shutting the door for a week from the Old Testament oracles of Moses.

You didn't confirm the rapture with no such thing, because the trumpets were not only used in Israel for calling the people out, or just for feast days. They were used at anointing, and to prepare for BATTLE. The Revelation trumpets are about spiritual battle, especially the 7th trumpet. All you've done is gone looking in the OT for something that might support either a Pre-trib or Pre-wrath setting, anything except how God's Word shows the day of The Lord, Christ's coming and our gathering, and God's wrath upon the wicked, all happen within the same timing.

So just going back to the Old Testament to try and find Scripture that will serve as a plug-in for the Pre-Trib doctrine (like Isa.26:19-21), is not true Bible study. True Bible study involves keeping the flow of the subject within the chapters in mind as presented, and not just pulling out a few verses here and there to apply them however one wants. Because Isaiah 26:1 continues the subject of the previous Isaiah 25 chapter with "In that day...", it means you've got to connect its subject flow with Isaiah 26.

You're just again being snide, puffed up and wrong at the same time. I have showed from the New Testament and the Old Testament that the rapture precedes the Day of The Lord. Again, just looking at Isaiah 2 and seeing that it is fulfilled at the 6th seal shows that the Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming. I only posted the Old Testament passages to show why you and others are making so many misinterpretations of Scripture. And I also want people on the forum to really see the purposes of these things and consider them. When you understand the reason for a rapture it makes it easier to understand. The 3 rapture models are all flawed under biblical scrutiny. God bless.

If I was being "snide" you'd have more proof than what you assume now. Right now, you're not telling the truth, because the Scripture proves 'the day of the Lord', Christ's coming and our gathering, happen at the same time...

II Th 2:1-2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(KJV)

That "day of Christ" phrase is 'day of <kurios>' in the Greek, which means 'lord'.

1Thes 5:2
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)

The "thief in the night" timing is about Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. That's 2 Bible witnesses...

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.(KJV)

Here, Peter also links the day of the Lord event with the time of God's consuming fire, which is how His wrath is poured out upon the wicked on earth. That's 3 Bible witnesses...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

Since Paul linked the 'day of the Lord' with Christ's coming "as a thief", that's 4 Bible witnesses that Christ's coming happens on the day of the Lord.

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(KJV)

There's Christ declaring His coming "as a thief"; and the Armageddon event is linked with it, which is also the day of the Lord event. That's 5 Bible witnesses.

And here's our Lord's example of what happens on the day of the Lord with the plague poured out upon the wicked...

Zech 14:12-15
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
(KJV)

It's THAT event on the day of the Lord, with Christ's coming "as a thief", that is His wrath poured out upon the wicked which will come upon His people Israel at Armageddon. It's that event which will occur at an instant, His consuming fire burning their works off the earth, and all being changed at the twinkling of an eye. Along with that, He is going to shake this earth with a great trembling 'yet once more' (Heb.12). Judah that will make a stand will not be moved, and nor will we.

 

[Mysteryman]

Okay, I am going to ask this simple three part question one more time, and see if I can get an honest answer from anyone.

During the fifth seal - Rev. 6:9 -- Who, and from where, and when, did these souls come from, that are under the altar ?

Scripture please !

 

[Andrew]

As I stated Christ is coming in the clouds to gather His church until the indignation is overpast. That is the rapture. Once it is over He will return to Earth to wipe out His enemies and reign in righteousness. But again, you are just ignoring the verses I posted, even though they show the type and purpose of the rapture (which I don't think you understand - like I said, The Day of The Lord is not about you, it's about God The Father).

Of course this passage above from Thessalonians could seem like the Second Coming. That's why you and others keep confusing it and misinterpreting Scripture. Even if you knew why Paul wrote this epistle you'd have a better understanding of why this is not the Second Coming being described. You need to study the oracles as the Bible tells us to. but instead of doing that and getting deep into the Old Testament, you are just making your own theories (like your invisible, never-mentioned "last trump") and giving out snide remarks.

As is always the case with pre-tribbers, Christ has TWO second comings and one doesn't count because He doesn't actually touch the ground (He's in the air) and we get caught up with Him, and then He and we return AGAIN.
Like I said, believe what you will. It makes no difference to me or to God, because what will be will be. We are all going to find out. If you are right then we get a free ride with no suffering, no serving. If I'm right then you get "Left Behind" spared suffering to a degree (I'll be suffering watching it all happen) and serving (unless you pull a Jonah and go off and sulk).

 

[Andrew]

Where did my words turn into an "All about me" and NOT about God?