The pretrib fib

[watchman F]

I Posted this in another topic, but it applies more to this. I believe in a pre-trib, as you will see.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;- 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Not being rude, but what do you post-trib guys believe this falling away is?

The falling away is when the church divorces itself from the truth of the gospel. By the way the verse you gave 2nd Thess 2:3 disproves the pretrib rapture all by its self. seeing as it plainly states the gathering together of the saints will not occur until after the anti christ is revealed.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. - Matthew 24:22

this, I am confused on. I am almost positive this is pertaining to the Great Tribulation, but if the days have been shortened, they have already started and therefore its neither post nor pre but mid.

All this means is that Christ will return and stop this age from continuing further, not that any previously predicted time period would be shorted than previously stated in scripture.

So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. - Matthew 24:44

The only time the Rapture could occur when no one expects it is before the tribulation.....

I just want to hear the thoughts of you guys on these verses, all believers.

This scripture isn;t saying Christ will come back unexpectedly. It is saying watch, and notice the signs so that He wont come back unexpectedly in a day when you are not aware.

 

[Mysteryman]

Sorry for the confusion, MM. My comment was in reference to this:

... For instance, we now see christians saying that when we die, we don't die, but just go on to a better place. Aunt or unlce so and so, is now in heaven after they die. Or, God took my baby to heaven because he wanted another soul in heaven....

Ah yes, --- Understood !

 

[watchman F]

The Bible is very clear on this subject, what confuses me is all the confusion. For most pretribbers they set their hearts on the fact the we are not appointed to wrath but they are confused about what wrath or who's wrath we are not appointed to. The wrath is the destruction of the earth by fire at the post trib 2nd coming (reff 2nd Thess 1:6-10 and 2nd Pet 3:10-12) and we are raptured b4 the fire falls as Jesus is returning. For midtribbers they have even more problems because they believe that the anti christ reigns during the first half of the tribulation and then God pours his wrath out during the second half, which in itself is a complete misunderstanding of scripture.

The great tribulation the last 3.5 years does not start until the anti christs declares himself God and starts his reign which lasts 42 months (reff Matt 24:15-21and Rev 13:5 ) and it ends with the return of Jesus at the battle of armageddon which not only ends the reign of the anti christ, but the tribulation aswell, and ushers in the millinneum (reff Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:4-6). The attempts by some to force a pre or midtrib view seems not only flawed, but deliberately deceptive seeing clearity of scripture on the subject. The day of the Lord is not a time but a day it is the day He returns to deliver the just and destroy the wicked (reff Malachi 4:1-3, Luke 17:26-30, 2nd Thess 1:6-10, 2nd Thess 2:1-3 and 2nd Pet 3:10-12) it is the day of the 2nd coming. For all of you who for some reason think that the fact that he returns as a thief proves pre trib, the Bible clearly says in 1st Thess 5:2-4 that when he comes as a thief it is to destroy the wicked not to take the church and it also says the we as christians will not be overcome.

And for those who believe that the fact that we do not know the day or hour proves pre, Jesus was not speaking of the rapture when He said that He was speaking of the 2nd coming itself when read in context starting at Matt 24:22 and reading through 36 this is abundantly clear and yet for some reason ignored. We all agree that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation so the fact that we do not know the day or hour of the 2nd coming does not keep it from being post trib and the fact that Jesus was reffering to the 2nd coming not the rapture when He made that statement disqualifies your point rendering it mute.

Beside Jesus goes on to say that the 2nd coming would be as the days of Noah the same day Noah went on the arc is the same day God destroyed the earth so shall it be when the son of man returns (reff Matt 24:37-40, Luke 17:26-30 ) Then shall two be in the field and one taken not 7yrs b4 the 2nd coming, but at the 2nd coming, which no man knows the day or hour of, but we do know it is immediately after the tribulation because Jesus said it was (reff Matt 24:29-31)

 

[Mysteryman]

The terrible day of the Lord, the wrath of God starts at the opening of the seventh seal !

Bless

 

[awaken]

One question...are all the saints in the Bible the same?

Like the ones up to John? Those that are part of the church? Those that are saved during the tribulation?

Also..Is there anything or anyone that will prevail against the church?

 

[Mysteryman]

One question...are all the saints in the Bible the same?

Like the ones up to John? Those that are part of the church? Those that are saved during the tribulation?

Also..Is there anything or anyone that will prevail against the church?

Hi awaken

Well , two questions but that is fine - :D

No, all the saints are not the same.

There are saints in the old Test. and there are saints in the NT and there are saints that live during the sixth seal dispensation.

Saints are those who keep themselves pure. The saints mentioned in the seven church epistles are the members of the body of Christ. During the sixth seal, the sixth dispensation, there are still brethren here upon the earth. They are not a part of the body of Christ, but they are saints. During the sixth seal/sixth dispensation, the saints are the 144,000 virgins. The word "virgin" means to keep one's self pure. They will be beheaded because they will not bow down.

Your second question can be answered this way --> Nobody can prevail over the church. But something can, and that something is called - a lack of faith by the Christians.

God Bless - IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

One question...are all the saints in the Bible the same?

Like the ones up to John? Those that are part of the church? Those that are saved during the tribulation?

Those saved during the Trib will be a part of God's church.

Also..Is there anything or anyone that will prevail against the church?

God's true church, Hs spotless Bride will come out victorious in the end.

 

[awaken]

The reason for these questions..

I read in Matt. 16:18, that the gates of hell will not prevail against it(church).

Then I read in Daniel 7:21..that the horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them.
Also in Rev.13:7..it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.

I see a contradiction here if the saints in Daniel and Rev are the church...

 

[watchman F]

The reason for these questions..

I read in Matt. 16:18, that the gates of hell will not prevail against it(church).

Then I read in Daniel 7:21..that the horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them.
Also in Rev.13:7..it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.

I see a contradiction here if the saints in Daniel and Rev are the church...

Not at all, because the overcoming them in Revelation is a physical overcoming not spiritual. We do indeed resist the anti christ, and therefore we are martyred to take our place with the apostles, and other saints before us in Heaven. Then we return victorious from Heaven with Christ to take back what is ours. therefore although we are overcome ''naturally'', we are actually overcomers ''spiritually'', because we remained faithful unto death. We who overcome spiritually are the church the Bride that returns from Heaven clothed in the righteousness of the saints. So no the church will not be prevailed against, it is impossible.

 

[Faithful4Christ]

Thank you Veteran and Watchman F, this is definitely making me questions some of my beliefs. I have another question tho, to those who are post-trib. The purpose of the 144,000 is spreading God's Word to those who will listen correct? If that is so, why would they be needed if all of us are still there? Thanks guys! God Bless!

-And something I dont get, is why do we get so worked up and such subjects? The point is our Lord and Savior is coming back, who cares when. (Not that I don't want to know and discuss with others about it, because I do, probably too much. I am sure we all do this). Just my thoughts. God be with us.

 

[watchman F]

Thank you Veteran and Watchman F, this is definitely making me questions some of my beliefs. I have another question tho, to those who are post-trib. The purpose of the 144,000 is spreading God's Word to those who will listen correct? If that is so, why would they be needed if all of us are still there? Thanks guys! God Bless!

Well I do not know what the purpose of the 144,000 are. i have never seen anywhere in Revelation or else where that is says that are evangelist. This is another pretrib myth imo. I believe they are simply Jews who are saved during the Tribulation, and will become through their conversion part of the church, not a separate entity.

And something I dont get, is why do we get so worked up and such subjects? The point is our Lord and Savior is coming back, who cares when. (Not that I don't want to know and discuss with others about it, because I do, probably too much. I am sure we all do this). Just my thoughts. God be with us.

It is important because we need to know what God has in store for us, and to prepare ourselves appropriately

I believe that the prayers of the Church during the Tribulation is what causes God to empty the vials of wrath onto the anti christ and his government.

 

[Mysteryman]

The reason for these questions..

I read in Matt. 16:18, that the gates of hell will not prevail against it(church).

Then I read in Daniel 7:21..that the horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them.
Also in Rev.13:7..it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.

I see a contradiction here if the saints in Daniel and Rev are the church...

Hi awaken

It is true, these are not a part of the church. And as I pointed out the word saints is similar, but different within which dispensation. Rev. 13 is talking about the 144,000 virgins < these are the saints of the sixth seal also the sixth dispensation. These saints are faithful, but not a part of the church. They are beheaded for their faithfulness, and later reign with Christ a thousand years. The saints, and I am refering to the church here, are coming back with Christ unto this earth. They were raised up at the fifth seal/dispensation. Christ and the saints are coming back to put the final touches on the end times. The final battle, which according to scripture , has already been won. The prophecy needs to be fulfilled, which it will during the end of the seventh seal/dispensation.

Bless

 

[NJBeliever]

It is true, these are not a part of the church. And as I pointed out the word saints is similar, but different within which dispensation. Rev. 13 is talking about the 144,000 virgins < these are the saints of the sixth seal also the sixth dispensation. These saints are faithful, but not a part of the church. They are beheaded for their faithfulness, and later reign with Christ a thousand years.

Where does it say they are beheaded?

And re: the 5th seal Martyrs, where does it say they are raptured?

 

[Mysteryman]

It is true, these are not a part of the church. And as I pointed out the word saints is similar, but different within which dispensation. Rev. 13 is talking about the 144,000 virgins < these are the saints of the sixth seal also the sixth dispensation. These saints are faithful, but not a part of the church. They are beheaded for their faithfulness, and later reign with Christ a thousand years.

Where does it say they are beheaded?

And re: the 5th seal Martyrs, where does it say they are raptured?

Hi NJB

They were beheaded is recorded in Rev. 20:4

The church is gathered up (raptured if you will) is recorded in I Thess. chapter 4

The seals overlap the dispensations within the Word of God. Even within the book of Rev. there are overlap information given throughout the book of Rev. Those who receive a mark (name of God) in their forehead and this occurs during the sixth seal. This is also when the seven churchs are located < during the sixth seal. The seven stars are seven angels, one each over each church. The seven candlesticks represent the seven churches. All of this occurs during the sxith seal. The church of Christ is gathered up just before the end of the fifth seal.

For instance, Rev. 7:3 & 4 is also the same in Rev. 14:1 and Rev.20:4

Just like now, when we have Christians,there is the true Christ, then there is also the anti - Christ(s). The true Christ and the false Christ.

During the sixth seal, there are those who are of God, the 144,000 virgins and then those who follow the devil who receive a mark in their forehead and in their hand. The true and the false are marked.

 

[watchman F]

It is true, these are not a part of the church. And as I pointed out the word saints is similar, but different within which dispensation. Rev. 13 is talking about the 144,000 virgins < these are the saints of the sixth seal also the sixth dispensation. These saints are faithful, but not a part of the church. They are beheaded for their faithfulness, and later reign with Christ a thousand years.

Where does it say they are beheaded?

And re: the 5th seal Martyrs, where does it say they are raptured?

Hi NJB

They were beheaded is recorded in Rev. 20:4

The church is gathered up (raptured if you will) is recorded in I Thess. chapter 4

The seals overlap the dispensations within the Word of God. Even within the book of Rev. there are overlap information given throughout the book of Rev. Those who receive a mark (name of God) in their forehead and this occurs during the sixth seal. This is also when the seven churchs are located < during the sixth seal. The seven stars are seven angels, one each over each church. The seven candlesticks represent the seven churches. All of this occurs during the sxith seal. The church of Christ is gathered up just before the end of the fifth seal.

For instance, Rev. 7:3 & 4 is also the same in Rev. 14:1 and Rev.20:4

Just like now, when we have Christians,there is the true Christ, then there is also the anti - Christ(s). The true Christ and the false Christ.

During the sixth seal, there are those who are of God, the 144,000 virgins and then those who follow the devil who receive a mark in their forehead and in their hand. The true and the false are marked.

It boggles my mind the intense indoctrination it must of took to get you to believe this nonsense.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi NJB

They were beheaded is recorded in Rev. 20:4

The church is gathered up (raptured if you will) is recorded in I Thess. chapter 4

The seals overlap the dispensations within the Word of God. Even within the book of Rev. there are overlap information given throughout the book of Rev. Those who receive a mark (name of God) in their forehead and this occurs during the sixth seal. This is also when the seven churchs are located < during the sixth seal. The seven stars are seven angels, one each over each church. The seven candlesticks represent the seven churches. All of this occurs during the sxith seal. The church of Christ is gathered up just before the end of the fifth seal.

For instance, Rev. 7:3 & 4 is also the same in Rev. 14:1 and Rev.20:4

Just like now, when we have Christians,there is the true Christ, then there is also the anti - Christ(s). The true Christ and the false Christ.

During the sixth seal, there are those who are of God, the 144,000 virgins and then those who follow the devil who receive a mark in their forehead and in their hand. The true and the false are marked.

[/quote]It boggles my mind the intense indoctrination it must of took to get you to believe this nonsense.[/quote]


Hi W.

Your replies are just full of good and interesting reading. You seem to have all the answers and the greatest responses with total documentation using scripture. How could anyone disagree with statements like this one you just made ?

 

[Biblereader]

Why do you believe that pre-trib is a lie ? (I didn't watch the video) But I have read the Word of God.

Curious as to what "you" believe according to the scriptures

IN Christ - MM

Just to start with, I believe the church will be taken up before the Tribulation.

So, how do you explain these verses?

Rev. 17:6-6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

and, this fine example of 2 Thess.
http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/2_ ... ans_2.html

and:
Revelation 13: 4: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5: And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6: And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Daniel 7:23: Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24: And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

There are so MANY, many, many verses in Scripture that clearly point to the saints, the born again Christians, still being alive, ON THE EARTH, during part of the tribulation, and the awful rule of the beast and the antichrist.

WE ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH, true!

True!

But, a careful examination of the Scriptures will show the honest seeker, that the wrath of God is not poured out, until
Revelation Chapter 16!
1: And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2: And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

NOTICE right before the WRATH of God is poured out, glory to His righteous judgements,
Jesus comes back on a cloud, just like it was talked about in Acts, Chapter One.
Verses:
9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

We will NOT be taken out from the earth, until around right BEFORE Revelation Chapter 16 and the bowls of God’s wrath are poured out.

It gets me, that Christians and preachers are expecting to not suffer for the Kingdom of God.
Why do people not read the bible, and know the whole truth, and thus, PREPARE their hearts and minds, and bodies,
for this?

 

[Vic C.]

Just to start with, I believe the church will be taken up before the Tribulation....
...

I'm confused. If I remember correctly, our previous conversations had me believing you are of the Pre Wrath position. Have you changed your position?

 

[veteran]

Thank you Veteran and Watchman F, this is definitely making me questions some of my beliefs. I have another question tho, to those who are post-trib. The purpose of the 144,000 is spreading God's Word to those who will listen correct? If that is so, why would they be needed if all of us are still there? Thanks guys! God Bless!

-And something I dont get, is why do we get so worked up and such subjects? The point is our Lord and Savior is coming back, who cares when. (Not that I don't want to know and discuss with others about it, because I do, probably too much. I am sure we all do this). Just my thoughts. God be with us.

Concerning the 144,000, the first 3 verses of Rev.7 are very important. The "four winds" as a type of event is associated with tribulation events (Dan.7:2; Dan.8:8), and day of the Lord events (Dan.11:4; Ezek.37; Matt.24:31). The four angels are told to hold the four winds until God seals His servants. Compare this event with Ezekiel 9 and the sealing of God's servants by the angel with an inkhorn. The other Revelation chapter about this sealing of God's servants is in Rev.9. And in Rev.9 is revealed what purpose its for, against deception by the religious beast, because the symbols about the locust army being allowed to sting those not sealed, is actually about deception, the fire, smoke, and brimstone that comes out of their MOUTHS.

The 144,000 are specifically about God sealing His elect of Israel. If you understand about the history of the lost ten tribes, then it's not just about Jews, but those scattered Israelites of the ten tribes that are in the world today that have lost their heritage as Israel. Only 3 tribes there concern Jews, that of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. What might that mean? It means the majority of the tribes in that 144,000 most likely are scattered Israelites living among the Gentiles, and think they are Gentiles.

In Rev.7:9, is a great multitude of Gentiles that are shown as having come out of "great tribulation", and made their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus Christ). That means they suffered persecution and overcame through Christ, which that Message points back to those 144,000, showing all those in that chapter will be 'sealed' with God's seal to make a stand in the "evil day" (tribulation).

What's their purpose and duty? One of the seven seals mentions the souls of saints under the altar that ask God 'how long', and they are told to wait a little season for their brethren to be killed as they were, for giving a Testimony. One of the seals is about that Testimony, and our Lord Jesus mentioned it also within His Olivet Discourse of end signs in Matt.24 and Mark 13. Elsewhere, like Matt.10, He foretold of a time when some will be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan, to give a witness by The Holy Spirit, and to not premeditate what they will say in that "hour", but to speak whatever The Holy Spirit gives them to speak. That event is associated with the cloven tongue event from the Joel prophecy, concerning the days leading up to Christ's return. When Peter said "this is that" on Pentecost, it means Pentecost was an example of it. All this points to Christ's elect giving a Witness by The Holy Spirit during the tribulation timing, against the beast system and dragon, aligned with what God's "two witnesses" of Rev.11 will do in Jerusalem. Two candlesticks (two symbolic Churches) are associated with symbols about the "two witnesses" in Rev.11.

It is for that reason... why discerning the end times today is so important, so as to prepare to make a stand for Christ, since SOME of us will be called on to participate in that Testimony. That Testimony essentially means God speaking on earth directly... through His servants against His adversaries.

Luke 21:14-15
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
(KJV)

That event is also associated with the idea Christ gave that The Gospel must published in all nations, before the end will come. The Greek meaning for "be published" in Mark 13:10 can also mean 'to herald as a public crier', like what a herald in a town would do, stand on a soapbox in the town square, and give news.

Mark 13:9-11
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

Therefore, this BATTLE of what God's Word actually reveals will happen in the end of days must go on, for some of Christ's elect are chosen for that duty of giving His Witness against His adversaries during the tribulation. And those must be willing to be called upon for that duty, and not be seeking to escape it. The Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory is actually a doctrine designed to make a servant of Christ to want to escape the tribulation, so how will those make that stand in the "evil day" if they think to leave? For this cause, there will always be some in Christ that 'know' that event is coming, and those may very well be chosen for that duty during the tribulation. That in itself points to the fact that all of Christ's Body will go through the tribulation, for none will be gathered by Christ without those who are chosen to give that special witness during the tribulation.

 

[Andrew]

Simply put; the Saints cannot be persecuted by the antichrist if the Saints aren't here to be persecuted.
The lie perpetrated by the pre-trib rapture will cause; "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,..." Matt. 24:10.
If you expect to be raptured before the tribulation, then you will believe you've been, "Left Behind" when it doesn't happen. How stable will your faith be then? You'll be a prime candidate for the devil to hammer with another lie, 'you got left behind because you were never saved', and if you believe that lie your goose is as good as cooked.
Think about it; how many Christians have fallen for this; "We get the easy way out", rapture lie?