The Prize

[wayseer]

A pope has nothing to do with any of it anyway.

St Athanasius was not a Pope. Along with St Basil the Great, St Gregory of Nazianzus and St John Chysostom, Athananius was one of the great pillars of Christian doctrine.

The system as you call it was set up before the Mosaic law, you seem to state God had a change of mind because of the action of man when the Messiah was prophesied prior to the Mosaic law.

And ...

You see the problem with your analogy?

No.

Humans have never had anything to do with Gods plan, God did not change, man did. if the system was as you put it "unGodly" it was made that way by the continual disobedient human and it still goes on today even with the perfect sacrifice.

That is is basically what I said.

We are lost without Christ, we were given a gift (by his Grace) but the "Grace" is not the gift, the gift is a way for man to "realign himself" <-- see the "must do" part?

If Grace is not a gift - what is it?

If you run the race to salvation you can win the crown, but if you don't get in the race, you can't win.

There is nothing to run for - it have been accomplished. 'It is finished'.

 

[wayseer]

And it amazes me how many think that because it is free, means they just get it when in fact they refuse to accept THE FACT that they did have to do something to in fact get it... there is an undeniable even logical fact that there is reciprocation involved with every "gift", I can offer you a gift till the end of days, but you must accept "receive" the gift... "receive" is the reciprocal of "give" one can give NOTHING if another one will not receive it.

That is what I have said - the gift of Grace is offered freely, Whether we accept it or not is our choice.

Just the fact of accepting it is in fact a work! (righteous or not)

'Work' after the fact.

The point I have been labouring is that we don't have to work in order to obtain that gift. In other words, God's Grace cannot be earned.

 

[ezra]

If all we have to do is accept God's gift of grace through faith, then please explain what Jesus said in John:

John 3:5-6 (KJV)
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

What, then, is meant by being born of water and the Spirit? To enter the kingdom is to be saved. Col 1:13-14.

ITS ALL THE GRACE OF GOD.. the new birth the becoming a new creation in Christ .. why would you not want to include Grace in salvation? Grace is the Divine un merited favor of GOD . no amount of self effort ==works can bring salvation. Jesus paid the price so we can be forgiven ---- he was resurrected so we could have eternal life GRACE ==GOD riches at Christ expense .. the plan of salvation is so simple a child can accept it.

 

[BornAgain]

ITS ALL THE GRACE OF GOD.. the new birth the becoming a new creation in Christ .. why would you not want to include Grace in salvation? Grace is the Divine un merited favor of GOD . no amount of self effort ==works can bring salvation. Jesus paid the price so we can be forgiven ---- he was resurrected so we could have eternal life GRACE ==GOD riches at Christ expense .. the plan of salvation is so simple a child can accept it.

Yes, Grace does means “unmerited favor.” It means that we get something that we do not deserve.

Works go hand in hand with grace and obedience. And this is where a lot of people are confused. We are not saved by works of merit, which represent something that we can do by ourselves. No one can claim to have faith if he is unwilling to do what the Bible says.

In Hebrews 5:9 the writer makes this as clear as he possibly can.

We accept God’s grace by being obedient to Him. In Mark 16:15-16 Jesus clearly taught that the person who “believes and is baptized” will be saved, while he who does not believe will be condemned. In Acts 6:7 it speaks of how people were obedient to “the faith,” which means that they obeyed the Word of God (the system of faith).

In Romans 6:3-4 we learn that we are buried with Christ in water for the forgiveness of our sins, and then we are raised to walk “in newness of life.” In Acts 2:38 we are told that we must repent and be baptized “for the forgiveness of our sins.” In 1 Peter 3:21 we are told that baptism “does also now save us.” People have a problem understanding why the Bible teaches that a person must be baptized to be saved. It is not because the Bible us unclear on the matter.

The Bible is very clear. The reason people are confused is not because of the Lord. We know from 1 Corinthians 14:33 that God is “not the author of confusion.” The reason people are confused on baptism is because they do not understand the concept of “an obedient faith.” They do not understand the part that works play in salvation, and how we have to do our part. But it is not works of merit. And that’s where the confusion comes in.

God’s grace did do is this: it sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross for us. The reason that God did this is because He loves us. In 2 Peter 3:9 we are told that the Lord wants everyone to be saved. He wants me to be saved, and He wants you to be saved. But the only way we can be saved is by doing His will.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi,
The faith only crowd argues that conditional works such as running is earning the prize. So how is the faith only crowd going to argue that required work of running does not earn/merit the prize?

Uh oh...here we go again...using James' 'faith alone' argument to describe Paul's 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' argument as if James and Paul were trying to make the same point. Then confusing the whole thing with this matter of non-salvic rewards for faithful, effective service.

 

[rrowell]

St Athanasius was not a Pope. Along with St Basil the Great, St Gregory of Nazianzus and St John Chysostom, Athananius was one of the great pillars of Christian doctrine.

Pope Athanasius I of Alexandria (c. 293-May 2, 373) also known as St. Athanasius

I don't see what a pope has to do with Christian Doctrine (the Doctrine of Christ)

If Grace is not a gift - what is it?

He did not destroy us "yet", he was "Graceful", in this sense we are all under "Grace".

The "gift" was His Son, and by and through Him we "find" salvation. it is not earned as a wage, but its not shoved down our throat, it is made available to all men who "obey" the Son:


Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Through means we must do ALL he commands (obeying a command requires action, you MUST DO things to be saved...)

There is nothing to run for - it have been accomplished. 'It is finished'.

What was "finished" was the fulfillment of the patriarch and Mosaic law, Salvation had just begun.

 

[rrowell]

Uh oh...here we go again...using James' 'faith alone' argument to describe Paul's 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' argument as if James and Paul were trying to make the same point. Then confusing the whole thing with this matter of non-salvic rewards for faithful, effective service.

The "here we go again" part is every time another verse is shown that the giving "gift" has a reciprocating part on man "receiving" you come with the same old man has nothing to do with it.

You cannot receive the "gift" of salvation without "obeying" Jesus to "receive" it.


John 14:6 (KJV)
6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You cannot receive the "gift" of salvation without "obeying" Jesus to "receive" it.

We know this. That is not what is in contention. When are you going to understand the argument you are coming against? Paul himself contrasts being justified by faith with being justified by doing righteous things--in plain language.

It's the faith that moved you to receive Christ that does the justifying, not the 'work' of receiving it.

 

[John 8:32]

We know this. That is not what is in contention. When are you going to understand the argument you are coming against? Paul himself contrasts being justified by faith with being justified by doing righteous things--in plain language.

It's the faith that moved you to receive Christ that does the justifying, not the 'work' of receiving it.

It's neither...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Justified by His blood,
Reconciled by His death,
Saved by His life.

 

[wayseer]

I don't see what a pope has to do with Christian Doctrine (the Doctrine of Christ)

It was suggested that Athanasius was a Pope. I rebutted that assertion.

Actually, many Popes had very much to do with doctrine - and still do.

He did not destroy us "yet", he was "Graceful", in this sense we are all under "Grace".

Perhaps you are confusing terminology. We are certainly the beneficiaries of God 'mercy' - Grace is a different order.

The "gift" was His Son, and by and through Him we "find" salvation. it is not earned as a wage, but its not shoved down our throat, it is made available to all men who "obey" the Son

No need - the Law has been made obsolete. Anyone who has experienced God Grace needs no written law - it will be written on his heart.

Through means we must do ALL he commands (obeying a command requires action, you MUST DO things to be saved...)

Christianity is not Islam - there are no requirements - other than to love. Only those who don't know how to love need a law.

What was "finished" was the fulfillment of the patriarch and Mosaic law, Salvation had just begun.

Don't know what you mean.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's neither...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Justified by His blood,
Reconciled by His death,
Saved by His life.

Faith means faith in the blood of Christ:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." (Romans 3:25 NIV 1984)

Faith is how the free gift of righteousness is received. Paul contrasts this faith--this trust--with other righteous work and says it is how a person is declared (made) righteous, summed up in the phrase "righteousness (by faith) apart from works" (Romans 4:6)--which gets mistakenly understood as being the same argument as James' "faith alone" argument.


8 God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace (the grace of faith)..." (2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB) (Parenthesis and emphasis mine)

 

[rrowell]

It was suggested that Athanasius was a Pope. I rebutted that assertion.

Actually, many Popes had very much to do with doctrine - and still do.

That's right, but not the doctrine of Christ.

Perhaps you are confusing terminology. We are certainly the beneficiaries of God 'mercy' - Grace is a different order.

God did not redefine "Grace", man did.

No need - the Law has been made obsolete. Anyone who has experienced God Grace needs no written law - it will be written on his heart.

the "written on his heart" is the part you don't understand, after one is baptized (unlike the old law) we get the gift of the Holy Ghost Acts. 2:38, the indwelling is the part written on the heart and in the mind.

Christianity is not Islam - there are no requirements - other than to love. Only those who don't know how to love need a law.

and what is love?:

John 14:15 (KJV)
15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Don't know what you mean.

Some how that does not surprise me

 

[rrowell]

Faith means faith in the blood of Christ:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." (Romans 3:25 NIV 1984)

Faith is how the free gift of righteousness is received. Paul contrasts this faith--this trust--with other righteous work and says it is how a person is declared (made) righteous, summed up in the phrase "righteousness (by faith) apart from works" (Romans 4:6)--which gets mistakenly understood as being the same argument as James' "faith alone" argument.


8 God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace (the grace of faith)..." (2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB) (Parenthesis and emphasis mine)

Your problem is a miss understanding of what "faith" is.

 

[BornAgain]

Your problem is a miss understanding of what "faith" is.

Exactly...in Romans during the patriarchal and the Jewish dispensations sins were not finally forgiven. Not the definition of faith....

Faith is defined in Hebrews 11:1-3 KJV

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This is off topic but had to clarify what faith really is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your problem is a miss understanding of what "faith" is.

Faith means faith in the blood of Christ:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." (Romans 3:25 NIV 1984)


Faith is what does the justifying, apart from the work that faith does. What faith in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins does is not what makes a person righteous:

"The only thing that counts (toward justification--see context) is faith..." (Galatians 5:6 NIV1984)

But the faith that justifies (makes you righteous), apart from the performance of work outside of the 'work' of faith itself, (Paul's argument), and which counts, and matters, and which can save you is seen in the upholding of the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. And so it is in that sense that we are justified (shown to be righteous) by what we do (James' argument).

It is impossible to negate this plain teaching in the Bible. Impossible.

We are justified (made righteous) by our trust in the blood of Christ, all by itself apart from the righteous work of the law. (Paul's argument)

We are justified (shown to be righteous by our faith) by our obedience to the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. (James' argument)

If you try to make James' justification the same justification that Paul is talking about you create a glaring contradiction in scripture. Context easily shows which definition of justification each is talking about.

 

[John 8:32]

Faith means faith in the blood of Christ:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." (Romans 3:25 NIV 1984)

Faith is how the free gift of righteousness is received. Paul contrasts this faith--this trust--with other righteous work and says it is how a person is declared (made) righteous, summed up in the phrase "righteousness (by faith) apart from works" (Romans 4:6)--which gets mistakenly understood as being the same argument as James' "faith alone" argument.


8 God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace (the grace of faith)..." (2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB) (Parenthesis and emphasis mine)

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It amazes me how many think they have to work to get something that is already free to them.

We now have an intercessor (Jesus) who sits at the right hand of the Father and hears our confession that we are sinners and need his salvation as we believe in our heart that he was truly sent from God as the living word that we can indeed become righteous again not of our own righteousness, but that righteousness that is God whom through his Spirit is promised to dwell in us. All we have to do is believe and confess that we are sinners and allow Gods righteousness to cleanse us and renew our spirit man. Jesus wants us to come as we are and allow him to make the changes that need made in our hearts. People want to clean the fish before they catch them, but Jesus says come as you are I will clean you from the inside out.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me.

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is not by our works or good deeds that save us for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The free prize is not given randomly or unconditonally. One must meet the condition of running to receive the free prize. It seems you are suggesting everyone will receive the prize whether they run or not. In Jn 6:27 Jesus Himself said to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which the Son of man shall give. Jesus GIVES eternal life so it has been offered for free but one must meet the condition of working/believing to receive the free gift. Those that do not do the conditional work of believing will not receive the free gift. To say one does not have to conditionally do the work of running to receive the prize is the same as saying one does not have to conditionally do the work of believing to receive everlasting life.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

As far as I know Paul never did any running. Walked a lot - but no running. Don't confuse the metaphor.

Obviously Paul is using "running" in the figurative sense of obeying. Paul did much 'running' when he obeyed God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Uh oh...here we go again...using James' 'faith alone' argument to describe Paul's 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' argument as if James and Paul were trying to make the same point. Then confusing the whole thing with this matter of non-salvic rewards for faithful, effective service.

Nope, this thread is about Paul saying one must run to obtain the prize, the incorruptible crown. Running obtains the prize, not faith only.

 

[rrowell]

Faith means faith in the blood of Christ:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." (Romans 3:25 NIV 1984)


Faith is what does the justifying, apart from the work that faith does. What faith in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins does is not what makes a person righteous:

I have seen Ernest T. Bass and you go over this again and again, you simply put the cart before the horse... completely ignore the "through faith", the word "through" by implication says something must be done... if you have faith and not do his commands your faith is in vain, if you have not done and do not do his commands you cannot have faith, does not matter which way you look at it there is work involved.

God GIVES salvation to ALL THAT OBEY Him, he does NOT give you salvation and expect you then to OBEY HIM. it is a conditional gift not of merit but of worthiness... if your not worthy FIRST, you DON'T GET IT...

You constantly and consistently put the cart before the horse!