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The Pros & Cons of Preterism

{5} These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; {6} but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. {7} "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Matthew 10:5-7 (NASB)

{24} But He [Christ] answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24 (NASB)

Hmmmmm...I wonder what He meant by this??? :chin

Sorry. Not seeing the "Body of Christ" here. He wasn't finished with "the house of Israel" until vengeance had been taken on the generation that crucified Him.

So what makes you think that house of Israel were all Jew's?Fact is they were not.....
 
Guess I don't understand the point of this, Jason.

Are you suggesting that because the language used to describe God's wrath is "poetic", His wrath isn't real?

What about this passage?
{13} "Behold, he goes up like clouds, And his chariots like the whirlwind; His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are ruined!" Jeremiah 4:13 (NASB)
{1} The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. Isaiah 19:1 (NASB)
{2} A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies. {3} The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. In whirlwind and storm is His way, And clouds are the dust beneath His feet. Nahum 1:2-3 (NASB)
The point of every one of these verses is to demonstrate the power and wrath of God IN JUDGEMENT on His enemies!

This same language is seen in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.
theres a way to tell. psalms uses acrostic, and other forms of known hebrew/caanainite language that has poetic form. genesis doesnt. if we were to get an aramiac revalations and or nt would we see this pattern?

inflexs in the hebrew tell the reader what is or isnt poetry. aside from other things in the bible.i am not saying that you are totally off but most futurists know that and interpret the symbols to mean different things. i dont see us meeting jesus in the clouds literally though its possible.
 
So what makes you think that house of Israel were all Jew's?Fact is they were not.....

Wow. I mean, all I did was quote Christ's words where He told the 12 not to go to the GENTILES! Do you not know the difference between Jews and Gentiles???? :shame
 
genesis doesnt.

OK. Well, I guess I got confused as to what Genesis had to do with the same kind of language used in 2Samuel that's used in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.

Must be getting tired.
 
Not even close ,see below You're insisting that the message has little or nothing at all to do with the original audience. A serious mistake.

And the audiance is...
Rev1v1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Oh and news flash for you hitch, i dont believe the book of revelation made it to mass print in time for that audience. In fact the letters to the seven churches were sent away from jerusalam and the centers of jewish and christian activity for that time. indicating that events of 70 ad were complete by the time of its writing. I believe that God is quite capable of preserving his word, and delivering it to the audiance of his choice, it would be a huge mistake to discount it now.
 
You can believe anything you want. Personally, I believe the moon is made of green cheese and those who view it while full turn into 6' tall carnivorous pink bunnies.

In the meantime, I prefer not to let my "personal beliefs" cloud my judgment as to what the Word either does or does not say. I would rather deal in facts and the facts are these:

  1. Jesus said that the generation to whom He was speaking would be held accountable for all the innocent blood shed on earth (including His). Matthew 23
  2. Jesus said that while His disciples would face "tribulation" for believing in His name, this would be a sign of a "great tribulation" that would befall Jerusalem. Matthew 24
  3. Jesus said what that "great tribulation" would look like. Luke 19, 21
  4. Jesus said His disciples and the "tribes of the land" would see Him coming on the clouds and mourn. Matthew 24, Revelation 1
  5. Jesus told John to write these events were "soon" and "near" and that He was "coming quickly" and that Paul said His coming would be "like a thief in the night" but that His followers would not be caught "unawares." Rev. 1, 22, I Thess. 5
  6. All of these things - especially His coming in judgment as vengeance for the Jews breaking His covenant with Him - happened in 70 AD, EXACTLY as He prophesied!
Those are the facts regardless of what either of us believes.

I don't have to rest on beliefs or the vain imaginings of false teachers to understand this stuff. It's all right there in the Word, if you'll take Him at it.

No sir some of those are beliefs, not facts...
Jesus said that all eyes should see him, you are limiting it to the tribes of the land.
Jesus did describe what the tribulation would look like and it still looks like that the tribulation has grown and gotten worse since 70 ad, starting the trib not ending it.
It is the day of the lord that comes quickly, it is the day of the lord that is the day of vengance. It is the day of the lord that comes with world wide destruction.

Isaiah 13v6 Howl ye; for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

2 PETER 3
10 But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


ISAIAH 34
8 For it is the DAY OF THE LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.


Zec 14v1 Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

You see that the anger of the lord is kindled and poured out in protection of jerusalam, on the day of the lord.
 
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The bible starts off with God telling Adam something specific addressed personally to him that came true as constrasted with John who ,in your scheme, told the 7 churches things that were going to happen thousands of years future and never come true in their lifetimes.
You guys are really missing it(near sighted)not just Adam,it came true for the entire human race AND IS STILL COMING TRUE,WE ALL DIE! The message to the 7 churches was for the 7 churches and for all churches of all time until Christ returns...that is the way the bible is written...is this hard to recognize?? What God gave to the apostles God gave to the apostles and to all disciples of Christ(what the apostles were)for as long as the church exists,to reject this is to reject the fundamental teaching of the bible.
 
i dont believe the book of revelation made it to mass print in time for that audience. In fact the letters to the seven churches were sent away from jerusalam and the centers of jewish and christian activity for that time. indicating that events of 70 ad were complete by the time of its writing.
:shame

John wrote the letters to the seven churches in Asia (what we now know as Turkey) from the island of Patmos in 65 or 66 AD (during Nero's persecution).

Here's a map:



Are you suggesting John's letters couldn't have been delivered before 70 AD from Patmos???

Wow. Seriously. That's just desperate. :shame
 
You guys are really missing it(near sighted)not just Adam,it came true for the entire human race AND IS STILL COMING TRUE,WE ALL DIE!
Well Sam God is gracious and in His perfect graciousness He laid up the blood guilt on the generation that literally murdered His Son, by name Israel of the first century
The message to the 7 churches was for the 7 churches and for all churches of all time until Christ returns...that is the way the bible is written...is this hard to recognize??
Such a glaring error is easy to recognize
What God gave to the apostles God gave to the apostles and to all disciples of Christ(what the apostles were)for as long as the church exists,to reject this is to reject the fundamental teaching of the bible.
Well thats high sounding Sam and it has no effect whatever that Christ's prophecied judgements came to pass where (Israel) and when (first century) they did.
 
No sir some of those are beliefs, not facts...
Jesus said that all eyes should see him, you are limiting it to the tribes of the land.
Since this is a fact not just a belief on your part When did Jesus say Jesus said that all eyes should see him ?
Jesus did describe what the tribulation would look like and it still looks like that the tribulation has grown and gotten worse since 70 ad, starting the trib not ending it.
It is the day of the lord that comes quickly, it is the day of the lord that is the day of vengance. It is the day of the lord that comes with world wide destruction.

Isaiah 13v6 Howl ye; for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

2 PETER 3
10 But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


ISAIAH 34
8 For it is the DAY OF THE LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.


Zec 14v1 Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

You see that the anger of the lord is kindled and poured out in protection of jerusalam, on the day of the lord.
 
No sir some of those are beliefs, not facts...
Jesus said that all eyes should see him, you are limiting it to the tribes of the land.

I'm not the one limiting anything! Go back and re-read Zechariah 12, which is where Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ALL got that verse!!! It limits the interpretation to "tribes of the land!!!"

Wow. I can't do anything but post the words of the Bible. You guys have to make some effort to understand them in context.

Given that I don't see that effort, I'm convinced now you're just arguing for argument's sake. It may be time to just lock this thread. :shame
 
You see that the anger of the lord is kindled and poured out in protection of jerusalam, on the day of the lord.

BTW, those passages from Isaiah you cited??? All fulfilled in 586 BC with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem at the hands of the Babylonians.

70 AD wasn't the first time Israel broke God's covenant. You should read about it sometime. :shame
 
And the audiance is...
Rev1v1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Oh and news flash for you hitch, i dont believe the book of revelation made it to mass print in time for that audience. In fact the letters to the seven churches were sent away from jerusalam and the centers of jewish and christian activity for that time. indicating that events of 70 ad were complete by the time of its writing. I believe that God is quite capable of preserving his word, and delivering it to the audiance of his choice, it would be a huge mistake to discount it now.
Tell me something


If I write ;
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


in the year 50 AD , what does it mean?

If I write ;

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

in the year 70 AD, what does it mean ?

If I write ;

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

in the year 90 AD , what does it mean?

shortly come to pass means the same thing in each case doesnt it?

Now if you care to go on about the date of authorship thats fine, you cant prove it one way or the other,.
 
I am the original audience

Unless you're almost 2000 years old and were a member of one of those seven churches in Asia back then, no. You aren't. :screwloose
 
Greetings,

Paul says through the Holy Spirit:

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let noone decieve you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Do you not remember that when I was with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work: only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not recieve the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

So there is Paul's account through the Holy Spirit of the coming of the Lord, why it will come, who it is that will come deceptively, what the one who comes deceptively will do and how the deceptive one the lawless one will be destroyed, and he tells them, dont be troubled in any case for the Day of the Lord will not come until the lawless one does.

Now Johns vision of Revelation through the Lord regarding the same lawless one, what he does and his destruction.

"Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and 10 horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for 42 months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy againts God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

So Pauls account through the Holy Spirit and Johns vision through the Lord both speak of the exact same, the man of lawlessness and the beast, they are one and the same.

Now here is the end of the lawless one, the beast, both of the same account spoken in both Pauls word through the Holy Spirit and Johns vision through the Lord, and the understanding of "If anyone has an ear, let him hear."

"Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that noone knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS
AND LORD OF LORDS.
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and thier armies, gathered together to make war againts Him who sat on the horse and againts His army.
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he decieved those who recieved the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with thier flesh."

"He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword."

The beast leads all not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain for the foundation of the world into captivity, and is put into everlasting captivity.

"And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

The people of the world are slain by the sword, they all worship the beast and cause more to be slain by the sword because they worship the beast, the beast kills with the sword and his people kill with the sword and they shall make war againts the saints and overcome them, which means they will kill many, many saints.
The beast and his armies, every tribe, nation, tongue, both free and slave, both small and great will be killed by the sword which proceeds out of His mouth, as they killed by the sword, they shall be killed by the sword.

And we know that the natural must pass on to become spiritual, all must die for life, all of His will also pass from the natural body to the spiritual body, as Christ died and rose, we also shall die and rise, those who are not sleeping at His coming will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, that is, your body shall die, for corruption must take on incorruption, this body must pass away.

So that is your soon, your soon is however long soon takes for the lawless one to be revealed and destroyed at His coming with His armies and not a day before, so dont be troubled or shaken of mind, for that Day shall not happen until scripture is fullfilled and we are gathered up into Him.
Those who sleep in Him and those who are alive at His coming, we shall be gathered up together.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
stormcrow my major problem with you position is this. when the bible talks about the ac its mentions a man not just a spirit. and when did isreal return? modern isreal isnt a return as she has no peace nor has there been a gathering of his peoples to the levant like that. even you see that modern isreal must have some significance. in order for the jerusalem to say baruchba be shem adonai, the isrealites must be in jersusalem to proclaim that as a nation. so what drives them to repent?
 
:shame

John wrote the letters to the seven churches in Asia (what we now know as Turkey) from the island of Patmos in 65 or 66 AD (during Nero's persecution).

Here's a map:



Are you suggesting John's letters couldn't have been delivered before 70 AD from Patmos???

Wow. Seriously. That's just desperate. :shame

No!!! i am suggesting that the book of revelation was given to John for Gods servants not just the 7 churches as stated in Rev 1v1 and went out to the 7 churches after 70 ad as many timelines show it,s release somewhere in the 90,s. Because the temple was already destroyed in 70 AD. And if that is not the case then yes its delivery to Jerusalam were it would be most needed would need to arrive before the seige took place in 67 1/2 AD, and would be usless afterwords according to your position.
 
Unless you're almost 2000 years old and were a member of one of those seven churches in Asia back then, no. You aren't. :screwloose

You are not, may you be for His glory.
I am a part of that original audience.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
You are not, may you be for His glory.
I am a part of that original audience.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
dude, none of us are that old, and you gotta be kidding me.
 
dude, none of us are that old, and you gotta be kidding me.

Why do you say "Dude, none of us are that old. and you gotta be kidding me?"

Does the body of Christ have an age?
Is the Holy Spirit growing older?
The saints are not saints because of thier age, the saints are saints because of the promise, that whoever believes in the Lord Jesus Christ will have eternal life and that eternal life is granted at His coming when we are gathered together up into Him, ALL of us in Him.
I am as much a part of Christ as Paul was, or any other called by Him, i am a small peice of the body of Christ, all of His make up that body, Christ being the head.
Therefore a message to the saints, the church, a peice of the body is a message to the whole body until it is fullfilled.

I kid you not.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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